bowdoc1

Somthing yes ,but somtime no with my old 65 lb recurve and 2117s back years ago. I always remimber hitting one in the shoulder with this set up and the arrow bouncing out of a deers shoulder and one time shooting one at 30 yard and only getting one lung because only got about 4 or 5 inchs pentrationand can go on and on. I shot a lot of recurves in my day,shot lots of target and taken tons of deer and elk with one and know recurves and not with 45 lbs. most of us shot more than that for outdoor target not for hunting, so don't say things like that to me your telling the the wrong person a story like that.

TFOX

I personally feel there is room for everyone on the 3-d course because like I said earlier,atleast they are shooting.It isbetter thanbeing at home and shooting in the yard and a hell of alot better than sitting at home and not shooting,that was all I was trying to say.

Form is being developed regardless of what you do in 3-d.Good or bad but you are learning consistancy,or atleast that consistancy matters.

I have shot all that 3-d has offer.From recurve,toughman,night shoots,hunter class and making up my own stakes to full blown target rigs from as far back as I can get.I have even gone back beyond the fartheststakes.I have even shot a few of the 2-d stuff.

I have enjoyed it all and got better for it.I WISH I HAD STARTED AND LEARNED EARLIER.I didn't really start to learn proper form and mechanics untill right before I quit going to 3-d shoots.The last year I shot was my best ever and time and burn out got me.

Straightarrow

I'm not talking about shooting recurves with 2117s. I'm referring to shooting forgiving bows, with forgiving arrows. My arrows are carbons with close to 300 grains on the tip. That's not old school. In fact, it's so new, about 99% of the hunters out there don't even know it's possible, much less how effective it is. If you want the latest information on what's most effective, read Ashby's studies. Learn what the only significant lethality study says about it. Old school is thinking that KE means something. Old school is thinking that speed kills. Old school is not using range finders or knowing yardage at your stands. There's tons on old school stuff going on in big game hunting, and some of it is still relevant, but a lot of it is not what I'm doing.

bowdoc1

Good luck on the Ashbys studies what he saying is not new it's been said many years ago, I have shot 200 grian broadhead before on 2219 with a 65 lb recurve and took a buck it hit him hard knocked him off his feet, but pentration sucked to much blade area and the arrow broke when he took off the broadhead didn't make it all the way through the other side.

Straightarrow

Really? Show me one old reference where someone even spoke of using an arrow with an FOC of 30%, much less giving data showing superior penetration in animals when using it. Show me one instance of anyone proving that a single edge broadhead penetrated better, before he did. Show me one old study that demonstrated that KE was not a factor in penetration. Show me one instance in the old days where someone showed that the bone-breaking threshold of an arrow is around 650 grains. Show me one old study that proves some wooden arrows to be stronger than either aluminums or carbons. There not only weren't any lethality studies on animals, they was no one talking about this stuff. I wasn't referring to an aluminum with a 200 grain broadhead.

Undoubtedly, there were a few guys who realized that speed was not important and that heavy arrows were very effective, but Ashby's studies go way beyond that. The other guys weren't studying it or teaching it. Nobody was 37 years ago when I started big game hunting with a bow. Nobody was 29 years ago when I shot my first aluminum arrow. Nobody was 27 years ago when I got my first compound. Nobody was 15 years ago when I had fallen into the speed trap of trying to get my arrows to go as fast as possible. Ashby's stuff is as "new school" as it gets.

Put together an arrow designed using Ashby's principles and shoot it out of a forgiving bow and you have one heck of a forgiving weapon. Add in a lot of practice with good form and you have a potent big game killing combo. Like Arthur said, masses of bowhunters won't practice and learn enough to make sure their bows and arrows are tuned properly, so why not at least encourage them to shoot forgiving setups. Speed bows with speed arrows are difficult for the best of us to master. None of us have perfect form and most of us fail to some degree when under the pressure of shooting at a big game animal. Casual bowhunters are much worse.

davepjr71

Ashby's studies are nothing new and ground breaking. I'm pretty sure the use of 250 gr + broadheads was the norm when I started shooting 25 yrs or so ago. It's definitely nothing new.

Will you find a study on it? Probably not due to the fact that the majority of the hunters shot heavy arrow set-ups. When I started 2-blade broadheads where the norm even for aluminum arrows. Bear broadheads and the like dominated the market. Therefore, why would you have to write a study to prove otherwise. In addition, this norm was way before the internet. Therefore, any studies are buried somewhere in someone's house.

Plus, I thought this thread had to deal with shooting form?

Arthur P

Yeah, it is about form. I brought in forgiveness in bow design being able to help with accidental form mistakes. Straightarrow brought in the stability and forgiveness factors of extremely high FOC arrows for the same reason.

We shot heavy arrows with heavy broadheads years ago, true enough. Some of us still do. What we didn't do before, what is new, is to use arrows with extreme FOC. We didn't have stainless steel or brass inserts to help jack up FOC with standard size broadheads. Heck, I'm waiting for depleted uranium inserts to REALLY jack it up. [8D]

It's not the weight that's new, it's the distribution of weight in arrow design. I guess neither of you have paid any attention to the recently introduced weight forward carbon arrows? It's a concept that's starting to come on and you old school light arrow, low FOC guys are being left in the dust.

davepjr71

Weight distribution is nothing new.

Weight forward carbon arrows have been introduced because so many people like to use 100 gr tips (or even 85). That's the pure and simple truth. The weight forward design does not increase the FOC for a 100 gr arrow over what you would get by simply switching to a 125 gr tip. It's a marketing gimmick and that's it. switch to a 125 gr head over a 100 gr head and bam, there's your increae in FOC without shelling out the money for an arrow that has a factory wrap put on the front end.

Being left in the dust? How? I didn't know that all of our arrows where bouncing off so many deer or not zipping through them. People are killing thousands of animals with10% FOC with out issue. Some of you seem to think that without high FOC you can't kill anything. That's simply not the truth. you also make is sound like you can not be very accurate without a slow and heavy arrow. That is also not the truthand very misleading to people whoare new toshooting or don't do their own research to understand all of the factors that go into an arrow performing properly.I'm not disagreeing with the fact that a higher FOC head will impact harder. I'm just disagreeing with the commetns that keep popping up in threads stating that only high FOC and heavy arrows are acceptable for shooting game and anything else will not work.

Arthur P

Have it your way. I'm not going to help you hijack the thread.

davepjr71

Talking about anything but form is hijacking the thread. [8D]

And, it's hijacking because I disagree with what you are saying and comment yet you can do the same to someone else? pot calling the kettle black.