Arthur P

It's not the 3D shooters I'm beating up on. I'd be beating up on myself as well iff'n I did that.[8D]

Bows that demand nothing less than a shooters very best form in order to shoot arrows to point of aim, so critical you can't even hit the dirt with a quiver full of arrows if you mess up a little... those are what I'm trying to beat down as hunting bows.

Choosing hunting bows that'll allow you to get away with a few accidental form breaks and make a clean killing shot under the worst conditions, when Murphy has hold of your shirttail, those are what I'm talking up.

I like those toughman shoots too, TFOX. And survival shoots. And I can take my recurve or longbow and kick some serious tail at night too.

A few years back, when I was still 3D'ing a good bit, I shot a small local event. Just compound and traditional classes, no other class breaks. I won compound class with my old SuperSlam, shooting against guys with brand new Mathews, set up for open class. My SS was set up for fingers/barebow. The way I won was I shot a 10 ring for 50 bonus points at the end of the shoot. None of the other compound guys even took a shot at it because it was a l-o-n-g way off. After the shoot, a fella got out his range finder and lazered it at 127 yards.

I used to do a lot of form practice at very long distance because the longer the shot, the more any form errors show up. Of course, I didn't tell THEM that.

500 fps

This is a good thread. I've found everything Arthur is saying to be true. I still play with the speed bows, but this past year I got a Bowtech Constitution and a Reflex Caribou to find the most forgiving hunting set up I could find. I may have to give this Hoyt a look too.

http://www.hoyt.com/compound_bows/hoyt_montega_compound_bow.php

TFOX

Hoyt is still making forgiving hunting bows but the marketing and hype is geared toward the short and quick bows that are supposed to be hunting bows.

bowdoc1

I shot archery sence 1965 and have shot with recurves, with 4 wheel compound, two wheeler, round wheels, hacket cams, one cams, longer and shorter bows. With wood, fiberglass, carbon and aumimin arrows. I have shot bare bow, sights, FS and FSL. I have shot field,target, paper animal target, home made 3Ds and 3D targets and have won many local and national tournments as a Am and as a pro. I was shooting a pro at 21 and winning. I Also have taken lots of game from bear, Elk, deer and so on. Once back in the 80 I thought I would want to go back to a recurve and a friend made me a 66 lb and I could shoot the light out with it out to 30 yards. At are local range I have the highest score ever shot on it bare bow a 536 out of 560 and that was at reguler stakes not the cub stakes. After about two season and 4 to 5 deer I went back to the compound. I like killing things, pass throughs and I don't like play around with the game I hunt. I do not ever want to look back are bows and new carbon arrows today are so much better for hunting then what ever had back in past years. We are not miss judging yardage as bad and making bad hits because of 2 or 3 yards and pentration is great we are getting pass throughs on deer and other game and sticking it in the ground that we we didn't get all the time a few years ago. The only thing I can say about short hunting compound is to put a level and use it and with good from you will shoot tight groups, kill things and not have any problems.

BigJ71

Ausie-guy,

Well, Thatshows you just how many 3D courses I've shot......ZERO!Oh well, I thought it was the same as indoor shooting with everything done from a flat surface. I guess I need to check it out sometime.

I practice on anything from level ground to shooting from out of my tree stands and I know good form helps me with the more difficult positioned shots.

As far as bows go, I must say I'm very happy with the Mathews Switchback LD as far as it's brace height (9in) andriser design with it being a whole lot more deflected than most bows on the market today.......it's almost straight.While still maintaining good speed, this combinationmakes it a very solid platform to shoot from and a very very good hunting bow!

Straightarrow

It's not the guys I'm trying to beat down (at least most of them). It's the format. Anything that encourages hunters to participate with speed bows shooting light arrows, is something I don't like. I shoot 3-d all the time myself, but I'm out there with my hunting setup - 650 gr arrows, 32" arrows out of a 29" draw, 5" helical feathers, great big fat pins, rubber things hangin everywhere and without a peep. The guys I go with do not just stand at the stake and shoot when ready. We make up shots, limit the time we take to shoot and challenge ourselves in ways the course doesn't. We've even entered a few tournaments doing the same thing. Didn't win anything but had a great time doing it. We also gain all the confidence we need when taking these same setups after game.

Guessing distances is fun and good practice, but hunters shouldn't have to guess. They should be prepared for most shots and know the distance. That all by itself is the biggest reason hunters choose speed bows. It's encouraged by the 3-d format and leaves hunters justifying them as a good hunting setup. Well, they may be okay, but they're far from ideal for most big-game hunting situations, in my opinion.

Arthur P

Well, that's what 3D USED to be all about, back when it started. It began as a game to play with our hunting stuff. No offense to those of you who shoot the class, but I still curse the day they opened the door to open class equipment and the game became full-fledged target competition.

bowdoc1

Took a big doe to feel my first tag with my new go fast Bowtech Black Ice this morning. The 400 axis arrow at 400 grians, 85 grian thunderhead, blazer vanes blow through her so fast she didn't know she was hit. The arrow stuck in the ground about 6 to 7 inchs at 25 yards and she only went about 50 yards this morning. That the way I like to get them with fast kills. Thats one of the reasons I said I will never look back at the way it was before. I owe it to the deer and my sport to make fast clean kills.

Straightarrow

I can get those results with a 40 lb recurve. Anecdotal evidence is proof of nothing. What I want to know is what happens when things don't go as planned and you hit one square in the main shoulder bone? If we were to look at 20 shots from your setup, that hit a major bone, how many would break the bone and penetrate to the vitals, or just create a superficial wound? Oh, and just in case - the only hunters who don't occassionally have an off-hit, are hunters who haven't shot at a large number of animals, or who have selective memory.

I owe it to myself to use a setup that gives me the best chance of taking home dinner. I'm convinced on what that should be and it isn't what you're shooting. Looks like one of us owes something more than what we're giving.

Arthur P

If 'fast' is so great, why are so many animals wounded and lost every year with firearms? I mean, even a bullet from an old 30-30 is doing a good 1500 fps more than an arrow from the fastest hunting bow. If shot placement isn't there, then speed means diddly!

If you've got the form, have done the tuning and have put in the practice hours, then more power to ya.

It's the millions of other bowhunters that don't participate on the forums to learn, don't practice, that put their bows up by the end of bow season and don't drag them out again until a few days before opening day of next season... the guys who, when you say the words 'form' or 'tuning', respond with nothing more than a blank stare... Those are the guys who simply do not need to be in the stand with a hotrod bow. (Frankly, I wish they weren't in the woods at all, but who's to keep 'em out?) They'd be far better off with a bow that's not quite as fast but is very forgiving of their rotten shooting skills.

It's not about looking back, either! It's about looking ahead at the future of bowhunting, a future that needs to see our wound/loss ratio go way down. Otherwise, there won't be any future for bowhunting. It's about encouraging manufacturers to use their technology to produce bows that are forgiving in nature while not giving up too much arrow speed. It's about producing and marketing bows for HUNTING, and not putting so much emphasis on speed bows that are so very demanding on near perfect shooting form.