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Why good form

Old 10-20-2007, 01:44 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: Why good form

I noticed it too and on flat level ground,I usually don't do that.I am more like the pic posted.It was a matter of the positions I was putting myself in and what I had to do to get a good shot off.That is why we practice these shots,we can't get everything perfect so we must practice them.


The back muscles were taken out of the release as I said earlier and this must have been what I was doing subconciously to get a clean release.


I don't know if I agree with what you think is "correct",I personally feel there are things that are personal preference,this might be one of them.I have never put much thought into it,other than making sure I keep the release hand relaxed.

Check out Michael Braden with a wrist release,I have tried that and like it for competition but not sure I would like it with my hunting setup.


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Old 10-20-2007, 10:50 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Why good form

Thanks fo rthe answer, very informative post.

Shane
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Old 10-21-2007, 07:27 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Why good form

Let's see....

Nearly every bow made any more is less than 40" long, making them more susceptable to unintended cant. Nearly every bow made is produced with a reflex riser geometry, making them extremely sensitive to 3rd axis torque. Add in high let-off and that just magnifies the problem. Precious few companies are putting grips on their bows that will force the hand and wrist into the correct postion any more - creating another susceptablity to torque. High intensity cams with steep slopes into let-off are pretty standard - meaning if you creep the slightest bit, you'll find a new meaning to the term 'become the arrow.' Hardly anything comes with a brace height much over 8", and 7" is fairly universal.

Why is shooting form so critical? Because the bow you've got in your hand is so flippin' critical! You are using a bow that was developed to deliver maximum speed, meant for shooting one arrow per station at a foam target at unknown yardage, with up to 2 minutes on the shooting stake to get every point of your shooting form perfect before releasing the arrow. Truth be known, you are using a dedicated 3D bow - a TARGET bow - to hunt with.

People have demanded speed and they have gotten speed, but at what cost? They now are forced to use their very best target form for hunting, and it's pretty rough going for most. MOST don't have a clue what good form is. MOST don't have anyone to teach them good form to start with. MOST don't practice nearly enough. And we're putting high performance target bows in their hands and letting them go to the woods. Pretty much the same as handing a non-driver the keys to a Ferrari Enzo and telling him to hit the freeway, without any training other than showing him the steering wheel, gear shift, throttle and brakes.

It just doesn't make sense.

I've been watching this discussion for a few days, biting my tongue, so to speak. Think I'm getting out of it before I bust into a full blown rant. [&:]





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Old 10-21-2007, 09:15 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Why good form

I agree with you Arthur,for the most part but even with the "forgiving" bows,you need a solid platform to be succesful.

One of the reasons I like the cam 1/2" is it doesn't have nearly as a rough a rollover into or out of the valley.Not as smooth as the old days of round wheels but a nice compromise imo.

IMO,that is one of the main reason people are going too short on draw length.

On the shot in the video when I sit FACING the target,I am trying to get set and the bow creeps forward.If I had a harsh rollover bow like most bows today,I would have lost controll of it completely.


Tell you the truth,I would never use the bow I have now in tournaments.NO WAY,To unforgiving.


I used deflex bows with brace over 8".I did use a 38" a-a bow but I shot 3-d and it was a nice compromise but If I ever get back into to that degree,I might get a 40" plus.
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:31 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Why good form

I agree with you Arthur,for the most part but even with the "forgiving" bows,you need a solid platform to be succesful.
Absolutely, TFOX, absolutely. But the point I was struggling to make is that when those accidental form mistakes crop up - and there is nowhere they are more likely to happen than in the hunting stand - forgiveness in bow design should be given a LOT more consideration than speed.

Think about it... We spend long periods of time, hours on end sometimes, waiting for a shot. Muscles get cold and and joints get stiff. Sometimes an opportunity comes along at a moment's notice and will be gone in another moment. In circumstances like that, we haven't got much time to get mentally prepared before drawing down. We don't have the luxury of taking a few warm-up shots to get the juices flowing before taking the one shot that counts. We don't always have the time to go through each and every point of shooting form to make sure everything is exactly right before dumping the string even though we still try to, even if we've practiced our form enough that it should be automatic.

But there again is another point. Though we might have spent hours upon hours practicing during the past few months, much of that shooting has not been done while fully decked out in our hunting regalia. Most practice has not been done while up in a tree. Most of us have NOT practiced in actual hunting conditions to the point that our form will be automatic in a hunting situation.

And then, the bow that has been so easy and comfortable to draw while standing flat footed on the ground in warm weather can become a real bear to haul back with cold muscles and stiff joints, in the confined space of a stand.

Can a single one of us, regardless of expertise and/or experience, fully guarantee our form is going to be perfect, or even adequate, in all circumstances in the field? I think not. I've blown my share of gimme shots over the years, and that's an unfortunate fact. That's why I place such a high priority on bow design and demand forgiveness over speed.

Now, one thing I do when thinking about buying a bow is to draw it and intentionally twist my wrist to see how easy it is to torque the bow. My Bear TRX, a fairly standard high let-off, single cam, reflexed riser bow, is so easy to torue it's ridiculous. It will very nearly torque so far that I'm in real danger of popping the string out of the cam and idler. My Hoyt ProTec, long with a somewhat deflexed riser with wheels nearly up to modified cam performance and 65% let-off, is extremely difficult to torque. Compared to my old SuperSlam from the 90's - a long A-to-A bow with extremely deflexed riser, 65% let-off with E-wheels and a hand position forcing grip - they are both torquey and unforgiving. The SuperSlam is virtually impossible to torque and just as unlikely to let me get the wrong grip.

I shot field archery with the SuperSlam and I guarantee you I made some awfully bad foul ups with that bow that turned out pretty good. One instance in particular sticks out in my memory. I was shooting a 60 yard target, towards the end of the course. I'd certainly had shot over a hundred arrows that day by the time I got to this target. It was hot and humid and I was pretty well pooped. My first 3 arrows were dead X-rings. My 4th arrow for the target was the one I messed up on. I made a severe string pluck (a horrible finger shooter's mistake caused by poor back tension for you guys who don't know what it is) and that caused my bow hand to recoil left and down at the shot. Naturally I missed the X, but the arrow did manage to fatshaft the line at 7:00 on the spot, giving me a 5 instead of a 4.

If I'd done the same thing with the ProTec, the arrow would have been off in the 3 ring. I know because it happened to me in another tournament, same situation, same course and same target.[&o] If I'd done something similar with the TRX, I'd probably never seen that arrow again.

That tells you the degree of forgiveness I want from a hunting bow though. I've got really good shooting form, but I am human and make mistakes. I've proven to myself that bow design can go a long way toward covering up some pretty bad errors in form. I make far fewer mistakes in yardage estimation than I do with my form, and that's another unfortunate fact. Give me a bow with just decent speed but oodles of forgiveness and I'm a happy camper.

If I were buying a bow today, the one I'd go for is the Bowtech Commander. It's got a whole lot of I want in a bow. Smooth draw, generous valley. Speed of a reflex riser but with the anti-torque characteristics of a deflex riser. I thought it was hype when I read it on Bowtech's website, but I tested it for myself and it's true.


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Old 10-21-2007, 07:29 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: Why good form

Arthur,I think I agree with EVERYTHING you posted,and that is another reason for good form.


My bow has a 7" brace and 1 1/4" reflex and 36 a-a.I am shooting it set on 28" with a long d-loop.That is as far as I want to go into the unforgiving relm.

If I had as long of a draw as you,I wouldn't want to go below 38" a-a for hunting and probably 41" for tournaments.
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Old 10-22-2007, 04:54 AM
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Default RE: Why good form

Can a single one of us, regardless of expertise and/or experience, fully guarantee our form is going to be perfect, or even adequate, in all circumstances in the field? I think not. I've blown my share of gimme shots over the years, and that's an unfortunate fact. That's why I place such a high priority on bow design and demand forgiveness over speed.
Well Arthur, you had to open that can-o-worms.
I agree wholeheartedly. Form will be less than perfect in many if not most hunting situations, if for no reason other than the fact that hunting will put you into many positions you hardly ever practiced before. Combine that, with the archery industry's "need for speed" and you have the formula for failure. You gotta practice those odd angled shots and use equipment that's forgiving - if you can find it.

Another thing that has greatly affected the shooting experience is the overwhelming dominance of the parallel limb design. Imagine what a 42" parallel limb bow would weigh. The desire to overcome forward jump has proven to be an overwhelming favorite feature of new bow buyers, yet I'm not sure it has actually done anything to improve hunting success. I know, when I take my 62" longbow, weight about 1 lb, into the woods, it's a whole different experience to lugging around my 4.5 lb compound (and it's now where near 42"). For me, the longbow is a much more pleasureable weapon to tote through the woods. Even though much longer, it is much easier and faster to get the longbow into shooting position Yes, heavy bows are more accurate - with all else equal, but when hunting, accuracy is not the ultimate of what I'm trying to acheive.

My goals are to get into position on every opportunity without missing it, send an arrow designed for forgiveness and penetration towards the animal, and hope my choices enable me to hit a relatively large kill zone at what turns out to be an average of about 8-15 yards. To accomplish these goals, I will always choose forgiveness over speed or penetration over speed. In fact, there has never been a situation where I would choose speed over anything else, and yet few arrow, bow or broadhead manufacturers offer a product for a person like myself.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In my opinion this is largely the fault of the popularity of 3-d with hunters. What's needed to be successful in 3-d is almost the opposite of what works best for hunting, yet it's billed as the way to prepare to hunt. To me, that's laughable. To prepare for hunting, the format should allow whatever a hunter can reasonalbly have access to. Rangefinders should not only be allowed, but should be encouraged. Shots should all be inside 30 yards. Brush and twigs should be in the way, forcing an archer to crouch, lean and take other off-balance positions. The use of forgiving arrows should be encourged with the strategic placement among twigs and grasses. And the best rule - shots should be timed on most stands. A person should take no more than 6 or 7 seconds to draw and shoot on some stands. On some stands you should have to take 2 shoots within a certain number of seconds. I have to make an effort to keep from laughing out loud when I see guys taking a minute to draw, aim, let down, draw again, hold for ever and then release an arrow with a back tension release - yeah, just like hunting.

TFOX, sorry to take this so far off topic - you can blame it on Arthur!
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:06 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: Why good form

Actually,it is right on topic,WHY GOOD FORM?

Fits into the discussion nicely I think.
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:54 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Why good form

I just wanted to mention that I have thoroughly enjoyed this post gentleman. It is extremely informative and educational. Please continue the discussion.

Sadly...I cannot access the video because of restrictions at my workplace....
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Old 10-22-2007, 04:09 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: Why good form

Just my ugly mug making some shots that might be considered ill advised.


I must add before we start beating down the 3-d guys and especially the competitive type that enjoy taking the 3-d course to another level that we remember,ATLEAST THEY ARE SHOOTING.

I learned how to shoot on a 3-d course and shot the open class AFTER I got to a point that the hunter stake no longer offered me what I wanted from it.

I really excelled at the tough man courses and night shoots.

Understanding form and practicing alot made that possible.Just because you see a guy using a 3ft stabilizer, back tension releases, slide bar sights and scopes DOESN"T mean couldn't shoot lights out with less equipment.Chances are,just the opposite is true.BUT NOT ALWAYS.Thereis always the wanna be croud that have no clue and no reason to be shooting that class but there again,ATLEAST THEY ARE SHOOTING and that will make them better.


I am one that believesperfect practice makes perfect,not that practice makes perfect but even bad practice will make you better,maybe not perfect but better.
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