Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

I did not have a chance to shoot it but I did draw it back a few times to get a feel for it and I did give it the once over looking at the various components and the paint scheme.

The good news.....

1. I love the camo. It not only looks realistic but appears to be very well applied to the bow itself.

2. The bow feels "solid" when you hold it. Something that I have to have in any of the bows that I own.

3. It seemed very well put together...from the limb pocket spacing all the way down to the eccentrics and axles.

4. The grip. What can I say? This grip is worlds ahead of the Pro 38 that I had last year....and feels as good as the Razortec's and the Rackmaster's...both of which I consider to be the best feeling that I have ever shot.

Now, the bad news.....

1. The particular Patriot DC that I received is a 29 inch draw length model. I hope to get my hands on some of the 30 inch mods once they are done or possibly one of the "long-30 inch mods" in order to have fit me as properly as possible. It has been my experience that there is a big difference in feel between a 29 inch and a 31 inch draw length bow. The noise levels generally go up...the vibration levels generally go up, etc..... all because of the longer power stroke and increased amount of energy released during the shot. I just don't think it is fair to do it otherwise considering all of my previous bows have been tested at or within an inch of a 31 inch draw. I do plan on including my observations on the different feel of the bow with the two different draw length modules installed.

2. Geesshh Louisshhh!...this is a bear to draw back! I feel like I am pulling an eighty pounder. I sort of expected it actually...and the bow was set at a 71.1 pound draw weight so it isn't a total shock. I am going to dink around with some different draw weight settings to see what is the most comfortable. I don't think I would have a problem shooting it for 3D regularly enough...but out in the deer woods...;) I did have the opportunity though to draw it back to back with a 29 inch draw length, 70 pound draw weight Hoyt Supertec and I will honestly say that the Supertec's Spiral Cam has somewhat of a smoother draw force curve. Now, obviously, we are talking about an extreme end of the spectrum here but I still thought there was a noticeable difference.

That is all for now. I will be shooting the bow later today...both to get an overall feel for the bow...recoil/noise/vibration, etc... as well as to chronograph it a few times to see how the speed registers.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Thanks for the review, let us know what else you find out.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

I will go shoot the Patriot DC just to see how I like it. However, I haven't heard anything about it that makes me want to give up my 02 Patriot for hunting. My 02 Patriot at 71 lbs feels like pulling 65 to me. The exra speed would be nice. I might even be able to drop down to 60 lbs (my shoulder is past the 85lb plus days) but my 02 has an awesome valley and draws so silky smooth that I just can't see shooting anything else for hunting. The only thing I don't like about the 02 is the grip. I found that by wearing a thin jersey type cotton glove that I can completely illiminate any torqueing issues with that grip. The one thing that scares me about the 03 DC is that I am afraid it would try to pull your arm off it you creep at all with it. Probably to mine own detriment, I have never shot off of the back wall. For my own purposes Bowtech made the perfect hunting bow in 02.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Let us know what you find Frank. I'm trying so hard to be patient as I wait for mine to arrive.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Frank-

I know this is going to be an apples to oranges, well, more like an apples to watermelons comparison, but I'm curious about the draw compared to the Razortec or maybe a BK2 for something a little more comparative.

One request, if you have a 475gr arrow laying around I'd be curious what speed you get from your set-up as I plan on using a 475gr 2413 XX75 at the same specs (29&quot; & 70lbs) as your bow for maximum KE.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Edited by - grndzer on 01/15/2003 11:39:38

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

I wouldn't necessarily call my original post a &quot;review&quot;...more just a first impression. I won't post anything &quot;big&quot; until I have had further time to &quot;play with&quot; the bow as well as get the longer draw length mods.

SA,

Surprisingly, the bow isn't a shoulder-jerker despite the stiff force draw curve. The valley is relatively well pronounced and long enough to allow you to feel comfortable in relaxing some of those upper body muscles.

DLE,

There really isn't a comparison between the two bows in that regard and rightfully so. The Patriot DC is advertised as generating more than 20...almost 30 fps more arrow speed via IBO specs in comparison to the Razortec. In order to achieve this it needs to have a very stiff draw cycle as it is maintaining its peak draw weight over a greater distance of the draw forcue curve. The Razortec's Standard Cam and a Half feels like drawing a round wheel bow in comparison to the hard cam of the Patriot....at least, that is how I currently view it. Once I have the Patriot set up to my specs I will do more extensive shooting with it...then I can make a more informed opinion of it.

I will be sure to post more as things develop. I am sure that Jeff and I will be exchanging &quot;notes&quot; every day from here on out....:)

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

PA, I'd bet with the 30 inch mods and a 1/4 inch longer string and a 1/2 inch loop you'd be close to 31 inches draw. You'll probably pick up 3 or 4 pounds of draw weight also. The Duallys can be tweeked more than the singles<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>. You'll get the draw where you want it. Have fun!

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Thanks WWAG...but maybe I will get lucky and get a loooongggg 30 inch set...:)

Just an update for some folks.....

This bow is really quite incredible. There was no recoil to speak of...or a very, very, very minor amount. Zero vibration in the bow and that sucker was driving tacks...TACKS I tell you!! Even the noise level didn't seem to be in any way excessive on my bow. I wouldn't have a problem shooting it setup just as it came from factory. I found it that acceptable.

The bad news.....I didn't get to chrono it yet as it was dark when I finally got it &quot;up and running&quot;.

Now, here is something that is going to shock you folks. I shot it side by side...back to back...in conjunction with...my Razortec. The only difference in terms of draw weight, draw length, arrow weight is the fact that the Razortec was set at my 31 inch draw length while the Pat was still set at 29 inches.....and....

...the Patriot matched everything that the Razortec had except...there was more noticeable recoil on the Razortec! Can you believe that? I couldn't. So, I kept shooting them ....over and over again. Same thing. Now, we are talking about an extreme end of the spectrum here. Both bows are at a low level in just about category including recoil but I was able to notice a difference between the two. Now, as I stated before, recoil, noise, vibration levels all rise when draw length is lengthened so the real test will be when I get the longer draw length mods.

...more to follow...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Frank,

Can I get to shoot it before you change the draw length? huh? huh? huh? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Frank.
It is one very impressive bow.
So does this mean there will be a Razortec on ebay in the near future<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>:)


Aussie by birth Texan by choice

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Well as they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.With that brace height and those speeds I would expect a pretty heavy force draw curve.My question is how does it compare to a hard single cam like the mathews pro cam or max cam?After our season winds down I plan on trying to find one to shoot.If you have to back down the weight because of the stiffer draw the extra speed may be a wash.

CB

WHACKEM N STACKEM

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Just to play devils advocate here…let me throw out some numbers…<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


Basically I have found that I can drop 8-10 lbs of draw weight on the Bowtech DC bows and still produce similar or better KE than I can with most other competitors products. And most of time I can match or beat arrow speeds with similar weight arrows despite the draw weight loss

For example:

Let me give you some relative info based on Aussie's report (and bear with me here, please). He stated his DC PAT shot 288 FPS with a 345 grain arrow. 28&quot; draw 61 Lbs..loop and kisser on the string & the BT silencers. (no peep).

Last year my 28.5&quot; cam (29&quot; actual AMO draw length)[b] SEVENTY[b] pound Mathews Legacy shot a 355 grain arrow at 287 FPS (loop and peep..no silencers).

So if exact draw lengths and arrow weights were taken into account they would be damn close speedwise as is. Brace heights are similar for the two bows as well with the DC PAT being slightly higher

.Now..think about this...Drop that Legacy down to a 60 Lb peak model. You'd drop about 18-20 FPS with the same arrow weight...So now that 60 LB legacy would probably shoot the same 355 grain arrow in the high 260's

Now drop the draw length down 1/2 to 3/4&quot; to match the 28” DC PAT (assuming it’s a bit long)...another 6 or 7 fps lost from the Legacy....so let's say 262...then a 2-3 FPS gain for dropping from a 355 grain arrow to a 345 grain arrow to exactly match the DC PAT's arrow.

So we are at about 265 FPS for the Legacy. So you've got about a 23 FPS or so difference between the two bows, yet everything else has been equalized

Now let's assume we wish to shoot at 5 grains per LB. Drop 45 grains off for both bows. On the DC PAT this will add roughly 20 FPS for a 5 grain speed of 308 FPS. On the Legacy we will give it the benefit of the doubt (the SL3 cam on the Legacy is more efficient than previous SL cams) and add 20 FPS as well, for a total of 285 FPS. Same brace, same arrow weight, same draw weight, same draw length.

Now speed isn’t everything but if you are taking how hard the bow is to draw into account, and how much oomph is there, it’s certainly not a wash. If noise is a big factor, now bump the arrow weight on the DC PAT to match the same exact speed the Legacy is getting. While it still may not be as quiet as the Legacy, the difference will be not that great.

I’m not picking on Mathews here, I like the bows. I’m just using the Legacy as an example because my speed test numbers for it mirrored very close to Aussie’s and the fact that the bows have similar brace heights and draw lengths.

Even a slightly faster Mathews model like the Conquest or Feather-Max , still would not match up with the DC PAT (and the brace heights are lower on those 2 models). Neither would my Y2K Hoyt Defiant (6 & 7/8” brace, 70 Lbs 29” draw 352 grains at 289 FPS), 2002 CyberTec V-cam (6.75” brace 70 Lbs, 29” draw 352 grains @ 288 FPS),or several other models from various manufacturers I’ve owned in the past couple of years.

I can state from my own personal experience that drawing a 60 Lb harder cam bow all day, does not wear on you as much as drawing as a relatively smoother drawing 70 pounder. It will be easier over time on the range and also will allow you to get “over the hump” easier when drawing on game with the harder cam with less draw weight.

Just some food for thought.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Some more food Jeff,

I just worked the kinetic energy numbers on your example. 54.1 ft/lbs for the Legacy shooting a 300 grain arrow and 68.5 ft/lbs for the DC Pat shooting a 380 grain arrow. That's a huge difference.

MN_BOWHUNTER

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

MN.
I will tell you one thing at 60# and a 385gr arrow this thing slams the arrows into a target.
I shot a 3d round last Sunday with it and it took 2 of us on most of the targets to get the arrows out<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>



Aussie by birth Texan by choice

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Boy I hope that the draw of the Dually is not worse than the supertech. I shot the supertech at 70lbs and it felt like 100lbs. The spiral cam/cam 1/2 or not the supertech was really not a good experience. I would say though that the razortech is a real nice bow.

LIFE MEMBER: United Bowhunters of PA. >>------> (x)

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Boy I hope that the draw of the Dually is not worse than the supertech. I shot the supertech at 70lbs and it felt like 100lbs. The spiral cam/cam 1/2 or not the supertech was really not a good experience. I would say though that the razortech is a real nice bow.

LIFE MEMBER: United Bowhunters of PA. &gt;&gt;------&gt; (x)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

KIDD (Frank),

I haven’t shot the Spiral/SuperTec in several weeks, but what I remember is that like many onecams the bow peaked very late in the draw cycle..thus making it harder and harder to pull throughout the draw force curve until BAMM it lets off right at the end. THAT kind of draw cycle bugs me to no end.

The new DC’s from BT do somewhat the opposite, they peak very early and the draw cycle and then maintain that throughout the draw, so only the initial going is tough.

In either case they are hard cams to pull, but the DC cams are better ergonomically for the way the human muscle structure works (it’s easier to get that weight moving at the start where we are strongest, as opposed to having to work harder the farther we draw).

After I actually got my Winn release (which by it’s design reduced felt draw weight compared to wrist strap releases) on and starting shooting, I’ve never given it a second thought, and still don’t …I don’t find it as hard to draw as my 70 Pound Mighty Mite was…But I admit, because I’m a pretty big boy, these things rarely bother me (except in the case of aforementioned draw cycles that don’t peak until late in the draw cycle).

My .02 coppers anyway

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

So JeffB dont have to think so hard<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> My Legacy at 29 inch's set at 61# with a 429 grain arrow is shooting a flat 270<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Hawgz, I'd have to see that to belive it. I've shot with plenty of guys with these bows, and 70#ers aren't doing that.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

I am not going to lie. I call it like I see it..or in this case &quot;Feel&quot; it. The Dual cams on the Patriot are harsh drawing. There is no getting around that. The speed has to come from somewhere. Now just for those folks who might misinterpret my terminology, when I say &quot;harsh&quot; I simply mean that the bow jumps up to its peak draw weight early in the draw cycle and then maintains it for almost all of the draw cycle before dropping into a relatively short valley. I do not mean &quot;harsh&quot; in that the draw cycle is &quot;bumpy&quot; or difficult to manage in comparison to other similar cams on the market.

But, Jeff and I always disagree on one very simple statement and it really is a difference of opinion....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can state from my own personal experience that drawing a 60 Lb harder cam bow all day, does not wear on you as much as drawing as a relatively smoother drawing 70 pounder <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

....I don't agree with that. If that were the case then we would all still be shooting those dreaded hatchet cams from the early nineties....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...instead of bows with cams like Mathews Straighline Maxcam series and both Hoyt and Darton's Hybrid designs. All of us switched from the old round wheel and soft cam design to the new perimeter weighted single cams or the older style hatchet cam designs for one simple reason....more speed. Yes, there are other advantages but, in a nutshell, I think that is the reason many folks did make the change.

...and the same style of argument was used.....shoot a bow at 65 lbs instead of 80 lbs and get the same speed or better. The difference was the draw cycle. The draw force curve was changed to allow the bows to maintain their peak weight for a longer duration. Eventually, there will be a bow that is designed to immediately jump to peak draw weight within the first inch or two of the draw cycle and maintain it until almost the very end. Is it going to be enjoyable to shoot? Possibly, if recoil, noise and vibration are low. But, will it be fun to draw?...even at a 40, 50 or 60 lb peak draw weight? I think not, but again, that is just my opinion.

Bowtech's cams do have their appeal (one that I am beginning to appreciate) but I still don't agree with that particular argument regarding the different force draw curve characteristics.

In addition, I no longer think that the draw weight that a bow is set at is really indicative of just how difficult it is going to be to draw back. We need a new figure in addition to set draw weight that would indicate the total amount of poundage being drawn throughout the draw cycle. Taking the draw weight measurement during each inch of the draw cycle, recording the figure then adding it up and dividing it by the draw length would give a more accurate description of the difficulty of drawing any particular bow at any particular draw weight. It might not necessarily reflect the individual shape of the draw force curve but it sure would be a good start.

KIDD,

The draw cycle on the Supertec with Spiral Cam is smoother than the Dual Cam Patriot. I have both in my basement and can attest to that. Again though, I must justify my terminology. The Spiral cam does not come to peak draw weight as quickly as the Patriot's Dual cams do nor does it maintain it for quite the same distance of the draw cycle. The valley on the Patriot DC is much wider than the Spiral Cam. provided the draw stop is installed. With the Spiral Cam's draw stop removed completely I think they are pretty much equal.

Jerry,

Yes,...you've got mail...:)

Ausie,

Possibly, possibly. I am going to continue to shoot both bows side by side. One is going to go...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Again, just my opinion.



Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/17/2003 08:58:09

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

pdq 5oh it will do it I have no reason to lie.The Hoyt Rep came by with the New Hoyt bows and was talking about how the Razor Tec would smoke the Legacy's so he was shooting his bow through the chrony with pulling 66# with a 370 something grained arrow and it was shootin 272 and he said I would like to see a Legacy do that.Soooo I got mine with his arrow set at 61# and shoot right at 280 you would though I slapped him set it wasnt pulling the right pounds yadda yadda yadda.Rattling on but pdq 5oh I promise ya it will do it.

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Hawgz-

Your speed just increased 10fps (270 to 280) from your last post, I owned a Legacy and shooting 28&quot; CX 200 @ 61lbs and I was lucky to be pushing 255fps. So there is no way you're getting that speed unless you have a 35&quot; draw length. I'm calling your bluff here.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Yep Frank and I don’t see eye to eye on that..but he know’s I’m right <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Seriously. I think it all boils down to an individual’s physique, and muscle structure, and may just well be related on a mental level as well. The fact that I have extremely wide and thick shoulders and back, and relatively short arms might be the deciding factor for me. For someone else with different muscle structure (longer arms, narrow shoulders, etc), it very well may be different.

However I have based my findings on not just myself personally, but also hundreds of customers I’ve had. I can’t ever recall a customer who dropped his bow weight down (and went to a stiffer cam) having ever complained that he wished he was drawing the heavier weight again on a softer cam. It might have taken slight adjustment period to get used to, but I never saw someone go back to those 80 and 90 pounders.

At the time I was a Pro-shop manager, we carried some of the roughest cams out there…original Mathews cams, HCA Hatchets (which compared to most modern cams are very smooth and easy to draw), Hoyt “Speed”, Flash and Master cams, XI Flatliner and V-max cams, The original BK from Oregon etc. We had a large Mountaineer & Golden Eagle customer base who were used to shooting soft energy wheels, often at 80 to 90 Lbs to get some speed out of em. After a season or two they would grab a Mathews 3D Vapor, or HCA Excalibur (fro example) at 60 or 70 pounds, and were instantly enamored, because they could get over the “hump” easier. It could very well be a subconscious thing: knowing that they are pulling less draw weight made it easier than it might actually be, in a physical sense.

Regardless, Frank and I will just have to agree to disagree on this matter. I find the Spiral cams smooth during transition periods, but much more difficult to draw due to it’s very late peak. I hardly bat an eyelash at the earlier peaking Bowtech Dual cams (either the new ones, or the BK’s).

At any rate, each individual must decide what is best for them, none of us can decide for another. I am simply offering information so that people can go out and make a more educated decision on what they are buying regardless of whether they agree with me or not. It very well might make the difference from being satisfied (or not) with a product, or truly ecstatic about a product.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> My Legacy at 29 inch's set at 61# with a 429 grain arrow is shooting a flat 270<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I am afraid that I am going to have to see that one to believe it.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

My '02 Patriot shoots 269 at 67 pounds with the 29 inch module through my old Chrony. Who knows if it's right but it is very consistent. I just use it to compair arrows and different set ups<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Ok. I agree...

...to disagree...:).

Thank heavens we are friends or we could go round and round about this one....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

OOps, I forgot. Mine shoots 269 fps with a 443 grain arrow at 29 inches.

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

Frank, you left out the most important part of your post, we are getting much older as well!!! I think I will go shoot my 1975 Bear Polar LTD so I appreciate my other bows more <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Become a better shot —> practice, don't just shoot

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

<font color=blue><font size=4>Good info!!! Keep it up guys!</font id=size4></font id=blue>:)

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

S/A Call my bluff?Dude its no bluff.Email my with your address and heck I'll send you a VHS tape or something showing you it will.BTW where you live if its reasonable I 'll came and see ya.But if can thing of a way I can prove it to you the by all means lets.Cause I have no reason to blow smoke up anybody's rear on here.Nobodys paying me or nothing but everybody says the Legacy's are slow and they are NOT.Thats whats its doing right now for hunting is 270 pretty sure the arrow is 425 but I will re-weigh it this week just to make sure.(I dont like it when people think I lied)<img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle>

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

I forgot S/A it increased 10 fps because I was shooting his arrow it was alot lighter than mine<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: Bowtech Patriot DC: Early Impressions...
 

my friend has a legacy hes been shooting it over a year now. he could not match my 60# pat i was always shooting faster than him. he got it brand new 70# legacy. so he had the weight set this year it turn out to be a 60# legacy go figure. any way mathews is giving hinm new limbs for it.hay maybe you got his limbs::

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine