Kanga

Frank.
It is one very impressive bow.
So does this mean there will be a Razortec on ebay in the near future<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>


Aussie by birth Texan by choice

CAJUNBOWHNTR

Well as they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.With that brace height and those speeds I would expect a pretty heavy force draw curve.My question is how does it compare to a hard single cam like the mathews pro cam or max cam?After our season winds down I plan on trying to find one to shoot.If you have to back down the weight because of the stiffer draw the extra speed may be a wash.

CB

WHACKEM N STACKEM

JeffB

Just to play devils advocate here…let me throw out some numbers…<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


Basically I have found that I can drop 8-10 lbs of draw weight on the Bowtech DC bows and still produce similar or better KE than I can with most other competitors products. And most of time I can match or beat arrow speeds with similar weight arrows despite the draw weight loss

For example:

Let me give you some relative info based on Aussie's report (and bear with me here, please). He stated his DC PAT shot 288 FPS with a 345 grain arrow. 28&quot; draw 61 Lbs..loop and kisser on the string & the BT silencers. (no peep).

Last year my 28.5&quot; cam (29&quot; actual AMO draw length)[b] SEVENTY[b] pound Mathews Legacy shot a 355 grain arrow at 287 FPS (loop and peep..no silencers).

So if exact draw lengths and arrow weights were taken into account they would be damn close speedwise as is. Brace heights are similar for the two bows as well with the DC PAT being slightly higher

.Now..think about this...Drop that Legacy down to a 60 Lb peak model. You'd drop about 18-20 FPS with the same arrow weight...So now that 60 LB legacy would probably shoot the same 355 grain arrow in the high 260's

Now drop the draw length down 1/2 to 3/4&quot; to match the 28” DC PAT (assuming it’s a bit long)...another 6 or 7 fps lost from the Legacy....so let's say 262...then a 2-3 FPS gain for dropping from a 355 grain arrow to a 345 grain arrow to exactly match the DC PAT's arrow.

So we are at about 265 FPS for the Legacy. So you've got about a 23 FPS or so difference between the two bows, yet everything else has been equalized

Now let's assume we wish to shoot at 5 grains per LB. Drop 45 grains off for both bows. On the DC PAT this will add roughly 20 FPS for a 5 grain speed of 308 FPS. On the Legacy we will give it the benefit of the doubt (the SL3 cam on the Legacy is more efficient than previous SL cams) and add 20 FPS as well, for a total of 285 FPS. Same brace, same arrow weight, same draw weight, same draw length.

Now speed isn’t everything but if you are taking how hard the bow is to draw into account, and how much oomph is there, it’s certainly not a wash. If noise is a big factor, now bump the arrow weight on the DC PAT to match the same exact speed the Legacy is getting. While it still may not be as quiet as the Legacy, the difference will be not that great.

I’m not picking on Mathews here, I like the bows. I’m just using the Legacy as an example because my speed test numbers for it mirrored very close to Aussie’s and the fact that the bows have similar brace heights and draw lengths.

Even a slightly faster Mathews model like the Conquest or Feather-Max , still would not match up with the DC PAT (and the brace heights are lower on those 2 models). Neither would my Y2K Hoyt Defiant (6 & 7/8” brace, 70 Lbs 29” draw 352 grains at 289 FPS), 2002 CyberTec V-cam (6.75” brace 70 Lbs, 29” draw 352 grains @ 288 FPS),or several other models from various manufacturers I’ve owned in the past couple of years.

I can state from my own personal experience that drawing a 60 Lb harder cam bow all day, does not wear on you as much as drawing as a relatively smoother drawing 70 pounder. It will be easier over time on the range and also will allow you to get “over the hump” easier when drawing on game with the harder cam with less draw weight.

Just some food for thought.

MN_BOWHUNTER

Some more food Jeff,

I just worked the kinetic energy numbers on your example. 54.1 ft/lbs for the Legacy shooting a 300 grain arrow and 68.5 ft/lbs for the DC Pat shooting a 380 grain arrow. That's a huge difference.

MN_BOWHUNTER

Kanga

MN.
I will tell you one thing at 60# and a 385gr arrow this thing slams the arrows into a target.
I shot a 3d round last Sunday with it and it took 2 of us on most of the targets to get the arrows out<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>



Aussie by birth Texan by choice

KIDD642

Boy I hope that the draw of the Dually is not worse than the supertech. I shot the supertech at 70lbs and it felt like 100lbs. The spiral cam/cam 1/2 or not the supertech was really not a good experience. I would say though that the razortech is a real nice bow.

LIFE MEMBER: United Bowhunters of PA. >>------> (x)

JeffB

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Boy I hope that the draw of the Dually is not worse than the supertech. I shot the supertech at 70lbs and it felt like 100lbs. The spiral cam/cam 1/2 or not the supertech was really not a good experience. I would say though that the razortech is a real nice bow.

LIFE MEMBER: United Bowhunters of PA. &gt;&gt;------&gt; (x)
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

KIDD (Frank),

I haven’t shot the Spiral/SuperTec in several weeks, but what I remember is that like many onecams the bow peaked very late in the draw cycle..thus making it harder and harder to pull throughout the draw force curve until BAMM it lets off right at the end. THAT kind of draw cycle bugs me to no end.

The new DC’s from BT do somewhat the opposite, they peak very early and the draw cycle and then maintain that throughout the draw, so only the initial going is tough.

In either case they are hard cams to pull, but the DC cams are better ergonomically for the way the human muscle structure works (it’s easier to get that weight moving at the start where we are strongest, as opposed to having to work harder the farther we draw).

After I actually got my Winn release (which by it’s design reduced felt draw weight compared to wrist strap releases) on and starting shooting, I’ve never given it a second thought, and still don’t …I don’t find it as hard to draw as my 70 Pound Mighty Mite was…But I admit, because I’m a pretty big boy, these things rarely bother me (except in the case of aforementioned draw cycles that don’t peak until late in the draw cycle).

My .02 coppers anyway

Hawgz

So JeffB dont have to think so hard<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> My Legacy at 29 inch's set at 61# with a 429 grain arrow is shooting a flat 270<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

pdq 5oh

Hawgz, I'd have to see that to belive it. I've shot with plenty of guys with these bows, and 70#ers aren't doing that.

Phil.
&quot;Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot.&quot;<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

PABowhntr

I am not going to lie. I call it like I see it..or in this case &quot;Feel&quot; it. The Dual cams on the Patriot are harsh drawing. There is no getting around that. The speed has to come from somewhere. Now just for those folks who might misinterpret my terminology, when I say &quot;harsh&quot; I simply mean that the bow jumps up to its peak draw weight early in the draw cycle and then maintains it for almost all of the draw cycle before dropping into a relatively short valley. I do not mean &quot;harsh&quot; in that the draw cycle is &quot;bumpy&quot; or difficult to manage in comparison to other similar cams on the market.

But, Jeff and I always disagree on one very simple statement and it really is a difference of opinion....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I can state from my own personal experience that drawing a 60 Lb harder cam bow all day, does not wear on you as much as drawing as a relatively smoother drawing 70 pounder <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

....I don't agree with that. If that were the case then we would all still be shooting those dreaded hatchet cams from the early nineties....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...instead of bows with cams like Mathews Straighline Maxcam series and both Hoyt and Darton's Hybrid designs. All of us switched from the old round wheel and soft cam design to the new perimeter weighted single cams or the older style hatchet cam designs for one simple reason....more speed. Yes, there are other advantages but, in a nutshell, I think that is the reason many folks did make the change.

...and the same style of argument was used.....shoot a bow at 65 lbs instead of 80 lbs and get the same speed or better. The difference was the draw cycle. The draw force curve was changed to allow the bows to maintain their peak weight for a longer duration. Eventually, there will be a bow that is designed to immediately jump to peak draw weight within the first inch or two of the draw cycle and maintain it until almost the very end. Is it going to be enjoyable to shoot? Possibly, if recoil, noise and vibration are low. But, will it be fun to draw?...even at a 40, 50 or 60 lb peak draw weight? I think not, but again, that is just my opinion.

Bowtech's cams do have their appeal (one that I am beginning to appreciate) but I still don't agree with that particular argument regarding the different force draw curve characteristics.

In addition, I no longer think that the draw weight that a bow is set at is really indicative of just how difficult it is going to be to draw back. We need a new figure in addition to set draw weight that would indicate the total amount of poundage being drawn throughout the draw cycle. Taking the draw weight measurement during each inch of the draw cycle, recording the figure then adding it up and dividing it by the draw length would give a more accurate description of the difficulty of drawing any particular bow at any particular draw weight. It might not necessarily reflect the individual shape of the draw force curve but it sure would be a good start.

KIDD,

The draw cycle on the Supertec with Spiral Cam is smoother than the Dual Cam Patriot. I have both in my basement and can attest to that. Again though, I must justify my terminology. The Spiral cam does not come to peak draw weight as quickly as the Patriot's Dual cams do nor does it maintain it for quite the same distance of the draw cycle. The valley on the Patriot DC is much wider than the Spiral Cam. provided the draw stop is installed. With the Spiral Cam's draw stop removed completely I think they are pretty much equal.

Jerry,

Yes,...you've got mail...

Ausie,

Possibly, possibly. I am going to continue to shoot both bows side by side. One is going to go...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Again, just my opinion.



Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/17/2003 08:58:09