REVELATIONS! (?)
 

In accuracy that is..

Did you ever, or do you now, have some items of equipment that you just don't want to change, that you'd find hard to give up? Things that over the years have proven so reliable, and maybe even "necessary" to your setup? Things you might not use any more that you really would like to, but don't for some dumb reason or another?

The reason I'm asking is because this past year I realized that 2 seemingly unimportant pieces of equipment make a serious difference in my comfort level, accuracy, and consistency when shooting.

Here's my tale...(yes, of course, it’s another windbag story from Jeff)

Years ago when I first started using a release, a friend of mine let me have his "old" release. It was a Winn Free-Flight..one of the OLD ones before the camo glove; It kind of looked like a brown golf glove IIRC. I used that release for a year or two, and then bought a new one when needed. When I switched to LH shooting in 1992 or 1993, I bought a LH Winn. That's about when I started to get really serious about Archery. Over the next few years I started trying all kinds of release aids that the "pro's" used, and shortened my draw length to compensate (the Winn let's you get away with more draw length: about 3/4 to 1")

I tried FletchHunter's, Cobra, Scott, and Gametracker Calipers, a Carter BK-Hunter, the GK "Answer" ,and other's I'm sure I have forgotten about. But I always went back to the Winn after awhile. More recently I had used a Winn or a Tru-Fire Bearpaw (basically a direct copy of the Winn, but quieter and possessing a much crisper trigger) on a few occasions w/ a few different bows; My first Conquest, my Rival Pro, my Defiant, my Bear/Jennings Epic, and my Maverick. However, even though I was driving tacks w/ all of these bows, I just didn't want to shoot the Winn. It’s “clunky”, it has a mushy trigger, and tendency to torque the string and eat up servings compared to the caliper styles. So I gave them up in late 1999 and started using a Scott Shark, and later when I started shooting loops, a Rhino exclusively.

A few months back, when I was having a shooting slump, I started thinking of those old bows, and how consistently well I had shot them at first and then experienced a big decrease in day to day consistency. Every one of those bows I had initially been extremely happy with, yet after a few months either got rid of them, or "retired" them as I saw my accuracy wane. I started racking my brain, trying to think what may have happened. Why did things go wrong? My form? Poor tuning? Sub-par Manufacturing? Deficiencies in single-cam technology? Eventually it came to me. All of those bows I had initially shot w/ the Winn release, then later I shortened my draw and went to the Scott's.

So about a week into my bow season, I was out practicing on my deck. Although during the bow season I generally refuse to even try new equipment so as to promote consistency, I let my curiosity get the better of me, went inside, dug around, and found my old beat up Winn, and walked outside. The release was a B@#$h to get hooked up to my nocking loop, but I did. I drew the bow back (and remembered how much easier it is to draw a bow w/the Winn), and found my anchor..which felt much more comfy than normal. As I got the pin close to the spot I wanted to hit on my blank target face (how I practice during the season..to make sure I pick a spot), I noticed much less pin oscillation. The bow went off and the arrow hit the exact spot I was aiming at from 30 yards...and I mean Exact. I took a few more shots from farther away, and noticed that the bow held much steadier as the limbs closed as well as during aiming. I figured it was just a fluke that I was enjoying the kind of accuracy at 30-35 yards, that I previously only experienced at 20-25. I put the bow away and pulled it out the next morning before work along w/ the Winn. Again I took a 30 yard shot and absolutely knew that the bow was aiming MUCH steadier for me. 2 more shots as well as the first were dead on the money. The next morning, the same thing, and the next too.

THIS COULDN'T BE!! Could it? It had to be because my draw length was shorter now, maybe even too short. I tried the Scott again one evening and my groups opened up from arrows touching, to 2-3" at 30 yards. The draw length w/ the Scott wasn't too long. My alignment was good. But there was no denying that w/ the Winn, I was much more stable at full draw, and much more consistent. I eventually put a tru-fire bearpaw head on the Winn glove and now I had the trigger crispness I wanted, and it was easier to hook up to the loop. I even tried the Winn/BP combo on some other bows I had never shot w/ the Winn style release, and could see the difference with them as well. I took the bow I felt least comfortable with in my collection and shot better w/ it than I ever had previously.

Even now, 2 months later, I'm still shooting as well or better w/ the Winn/BP combo than that day a few months ago I “first” tried it. I guess I shot the Winn for so long early in my bowhunting days, that my form became based around it's use.

BTW, I'm not condemning Scott or any other brand of release. They are all fine pieces of equipment.

I can only think of one other thing in my setups that I just can't give up even though they have some qualities that I abhor..

Feathers....

Yep...

Natural feathers..

girly colored feathers..

Two florescent yellow, one hot pink, 4", parabolic cut, right wing feathers to be exact..

Every year I say “I'm going back to vanes, I'm tired of fooling w/ the longer fletch times, and waterproofing them, and (insert various B@#$%ing and moaning here)”

I've never had a problem w/ Feathers. Never had them waterlog when I waterproofed ‘em well. They fly great even when torn up. They stay on forever when fletched w/ the correct glues.

Not once have feather-fletched arrows let me down hunting. But there's that nagging voice in my subconscious that just makes me try new and/or different things all the time.."vanes are good..you must try them again...the colors are brighter...you must try them again...they won't waterlog...you must try them again ...there are several different brands to try and you MUST TRY THEM ALL, MEWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!….. (that's a diabolical B-Movie Villain laugh, by the way. Pretty girl tied to a railroad track, train coming down the track, handlebar moustache on a guy w/ a cape and mask…”MEWHAHAHAHAha ha ha ha… h…a…..”

*Ahem*..

But after shooting vanes for a couple of months, I always go back to feathers. Then the next year or so, I do it all over again! What in the h-e-double hockey sticks is wrong with me???!

It's a sickness..a Sickness I tell you!!!!

When will I just get it through my thick skull that in my hands feather fletched arrows just plain shoot more accurately w/ and without broadheads? Or, for that matter, Easton ACC's? Or the bow that I'm currently shooting? Why, Why, Why???!!

I'm off to therapy now…

Anyone have similar stories or “must haves”?

JeffB :)

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Jeff, I know exactly what you mean. I am a total equiptment guru like yourself, that is constantly looking for better equiptment to improve. At times, you find better, and as you stated many times you end up coming back to the ol trusty piece of equiptment that you never should have abandoned. I will say that one good thing I like about it, is it is fun to try new stuff, and form your own opinions about it, instead of not knowing at all. Thats what I love.
P.S. I am familiar with the Winn releases, but what exactly is the Winn/Bp combo?

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Razorhunter,

He was referring to his putting the glove of the Winn release with the "head" of the TruFire Bear Paw (BP).

Jeff,

Thanks for the &quot;report&quot;. It never does get boring reading them...at least for me..<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...since I always seem to pull some sort of valuable information from them.

Admittedly, I haven't experimented with releases much. I still use the second one I tried...a Trufire Surefire...though I have the newer Hurricane as a backup. I have tried some of the other less expensive models and did not like the overall length of them.

I have never tried a Scott or any of the super expensive models.....not to mention back tension releases..... but I have &quot;eyed up&quot; the Bear Paw on several occasions.

Maybe your little story here is the perfect incentive for me to go out and get one.

:)

Frank

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Thanks for the info Jeff. I would say my release too. I have always grasped the bar of my trigger release to pull back my bow. I went to the Winn Archery web site to check out this release. It definitely looks like something I would like to try. Especially since it comes in sizes, I would need a small! I do have a question for you though. The C-10 model is a pull trigger, the C-12 model is a relax trigger. I have a tendency to &quot;pull instead of squeeze&quot;. Do you think that the relax trigger could eliminate this? I wonder how hard it would be to get used to? I worked on my form so much over the past year, but this one thing seems to always cause me trouble. League starts in less than two weeks and my HavocTec hasn't arrived yet. Since I have a new set-up to get used to anyway, I am thinking about switching to this release. Which do you use? Pull or relax?

<~*Ami*~>
It's Not A Passion, It's An Obsession. Pass It On...

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

In 1995 I was still shooting fingers and using a 3rd generation Mcpherson innercam (Made when Matt still owned them). Our local shop didn't know anything about this bow and couldn't tune it (this was before I was infected with bowbugitis), so I made a trip to one that did. They set it up, and convinced me to try one of their releases that they &quot;built&quot;. It was a Winn glove with a Cobra caliper head attached. I was hesitant, as I'd tried my brother-in-law's wrist strap release, and hated it, it felt absolutely foreign to me, but they assured me this was different, so I said ok. Love at first pull. It gave me the same solid connection with the bow that shooting fingers did. I bought one on the spot. I continued to use it after I got a first generation Buckmaster, but when I sold this bow to my brother to buy my current Diamond Hornet, I included the release. I had heard Scott releases were one of the best, and felt I had to have a mongoose. I've been struggling to regain that connected feeling ever since. With the Winn Glove, pulling 70# felt like I was pulling 50#. With a wrist strap, it just doesn't feel right to me and I can't get comfortable. I don't feel like I'm in control. I've recently tried grabbing the strap behind the release as I draw, which feels somewhat like using the Winn glove, and my shooting has improved. I've been considering a hand held release (like the Scott 3 finger grip). However, JeffB's post has reminded me how much better feeling shooting was with the Winn glove. I think I need to borrow my old Winn to see if I need to go shopping... Thanks for the reminder, Jeff.

Edited by - rangeball on 01/03/2002 08:28:58

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Jeff: You really missed your coming. You should have been a writer. A grasping documentation!!!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

One thing that I did catch from your &quot;brief&quot; dissertation was that you used the Winn's with a shorter draw length. Then you said you could lengthen your draw length with the Winn's.

Is it possible that the problem with some of the other releases may have been that they didn't give you a proper/comfortable anchor against your face like a Winn's does. If the hand wanders behind the head, an archer will suffer with lefts and rights.

I won't and can't critique your form in any manner, unless you want to stop by. :) The one thing that I want to get across is that any anchor point change or lack thereof can drastically affect your accuracy.

Nose on the string (or beside it with glasses), string crossing the corner of the mouth, and the release hand locked firmly into a comfortable area of the head are criteria for good form and better shooting. The &quot;final frontier&quot; for the shot execution is the actual release of the string. Backtension form is preferred but a modified backtension form is better to learn for hunting. IMHO

One other note that I will throw in here that drastically affects shot execution is trigger tension and grasp. Generally, the lighter the trigger, the better you will get the shot off and don't &quot;grip&quot; the release. If you can practice with your other fingers waving somewhat in the breeze, you will not have any chance to torque the string.

Thank you, Jeff (Hemingway) :)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

The first release I was ever able to comfortably use was also the Winn. That &quot;club&quot; jaw was rough on servings, but I wore thru 2 of the gloves also. Being able to wrap the other fingers around something sure did give it a fingers solid type feel on the draw.

Use GK Topgun now(similar to the Answer but shorter and sculpted, and without the punch guts, in fact it's a puncher's dream) now can get an even better draw length/anchor with it, and the small head/jaws provide a cleaner release. Still, nothing I've tried has ever had that solid hookup feel of the Winn glove.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Jeff,
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about your draw length. You can always shoot a shorter draw-maybe even 3 or 4 inches, but a 1/2 inch too long can have a devistating effect on you accuracy. Your anchor point is not nearly as concrete with a draw-length that is too long, where as your elbow can alway bend more to compensate for a shorter draw, keeping your anchor point the same.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

SAJackson: I have also used the Topgun and Answer for years. I did have one problem with them that I'd like to share. It may be due to the temperature changes we have back here; but, the releases came apart on me several times.

They have two pressed pins that attach the jaws to the body. These pins have fallen out on me. When it happens, there are two results. First, it may let the string through prematurely causing a bloody nose or &quot;who knows where&quot; launched arrow. Second, it may jam so that it won't go off.

I have since removed the pins and put Locktite on them. It may not happen to you because of your environment; but, it did happen to me quite a few times.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Len,

I've shot both of mine(backup) in everything from AZ desert 110 plus, to the AZ White mountains, CO mountains, CA mountains and winter desert, in the teens to single digits, never had a problem. Shooting an 80# bow the whole time.

Maybe it was a bad run.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Hey folks, glad you enjoyed my tale. It was such an eye opener for me when I realized the common denominator in all of those initially fantastic shooting setups...

Razor: Frank is correct. I took BP head andput it on the Winn glove because the trigger mechanism is much more &quot;crisp&quot; (and quieter to boot!)

Frank: Hey buddy, I appreciate it. It's nice to know someone gets something out of my ramblings now and then.

Tribal: The relax model takes some serious getting used to. Back in my pro-shop days I saw several people put arrows in the ceiling or walls of our range. But the people who stuck with them sweared by them once they grew accustomed to them. Finger shooters seemed to like it very much.

Rangeball: hope the Winn works as well for you again as it does for me!

Len: Absolutely. I don't have great form though I do try to always improve. My anchor does not really change when I switch back and forth, but I do believe that my wrist position has something to do with it making for more stability. I do shoot w/ a &quot;classic&quot; anchor (low, halfway between the chin and back of jawbone w/ the string running in the crease of my nose). One of these days I'm gonna make it to your shop, though I think I'll just wander in and act like a complete novice just to see the look on your face when I tell you who I am eventually!!

SAJackson: You might look into some of the TRu_ball and Tru-Fire models that use a Winn style glove and caliper head..it might be just the right thing!

NorthJeff: Yes, a small amount too much makes a big difference. As I alluded to before though, I believe it has more to do w/ wrist position and how solid it feels. Of course it could very well have put my drawing arm elbow a bit more in-line w/ the shaft and made for less torque as Len suggested. Whatever the reason, I'm happy.

ALL:

My intention was not expound upon the virtues of a certain brand or model of equipment, but to emphasise that we may often not be shooting what is entirely best for us in accuracy and forgiveness because of &quot;peer pressure&quot;, ignorance, or in my case a stupid desire to &quot;go against the grain&quot; when it surely was not the correct thing for me to do. However, in my desire to be stubborn and not admit to the problem initially (or subconsciosly ignore it), I eventually forgot about it, and caused myself a lot of frustration for the past few years for really no good reason.

My question to y'all is (and be honest): Are you TRULY giving yourself the best possible scenario for accuracy & forgiveness? Feel like your draw is a tad or maybe an inch too long? Is that new model shooting worse for you than what is now your &quot;backup&quot;, but you hate to admit it because of the big bucks you shelled out? Are you pushing the speed in your setup for no real reason other than to see what numbers roll up on the chrony's LCD, or shoot as fast as your buddies setups do? Feel like you shot better w/ those old slow aluminum arrows, or softer cammed bow? Think that maybe you purchased your newest bow without really trying all the others because it's what your buddies, or the pro's shoot?

Take some time and REALLY think about it..We have all done it, or will do it at some time in the future..But are you still doing it now, even though you are wise enough to know not to?

Happy New Year...Hope it brings happiness and lots of X's and antlers to you all!

JeffB :)

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

JeffB,

I really like the Topgun release, I wouldn't switch back to Winn or the Tru-Fires, believe I shoot better with the Topgun, the anchor and draw are just right.

Along the lines of the shooting what is perhaps not the best for you I would ass another Revelation.

I had been shooting a PSE Lightning Bolt with a wood grip that I had work to get just right. Filed it down to give it a low grip position narrow throat, lines up everytime in the right position on the meaty part of the palm under the thumb(if I described that right). OVer the last three years I got a Hoyt Striker II and a Martin Cougar to mess around with, both good shooters, but I seemed to always get occasional lefts and rights. Could never seem to hold as solid either.

So happens, I yanked to old PSE out after a 3 year layoff put some SIms stuffon(main complaint it was loud, even made me jump), after checking strings and cables, nocked several arrows, BAM slapping shafts at 40 yards again, something I could never really do with the MArtin or Hoyt, although both are certainly capable.

The things is both Hoyt and Martin are using a somewhat square-ish back of the riser as part of the grip with either wrap-around or half-grips. I never could get a real consistent grip for my bow hand on those 2.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Oh let me tell you what a sweet release the winn is, in the fall of 2000 I broke my wrist I was shooting a trufire wrist wrapper. Every time I shot it would send a jolt to my wrist that almost brought me to my knees. I dreaded the thought of shooting. I bought a winn because of the recommendation of a friend, and It was the greatest feeling to shoot without the pain.

The funny part is I broke my wrist in oct. but I didn't go in to the doctor 'til Jan. I had to wear a cast for 6 months. during which time I cut off the cast several times a couple of times it was so I could wear my Winn instead of the trufire.

I think I will be having a long relationship with my Winn seeing that I still have wrist problems.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

JeffB, I'm curious as to why you prefer the Winn glove over the one that was on the Bear Paw. Do you feel you shoot better with the Winn glove as opposed to the BP glove?

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

I also use a winn release. Have used one now for 8 years and have NO intentions of switching! I bought the new winn(came out last year) with the loop hook mechanism! So I can easily grab onto my string loop. Great release!

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Jeff just read your story You should submit it to bow hunter magazine. Im glad Im not the only one with that problem two years ago I tried to go to a release from fingers never got it quite mastersd into the subconcience. and started missing deer then came a new bow and that even made my shooting feel even more awkward. missed two deer. paper tuned till I was seeing red. finally in desperation took off my costly arrrow rest threw on an old one disinged for fingers and went back to fingers shot unbeleivably well compared to how I did with the release and bagged a nice deer the next day. So the next few years after I did really well deer hunting then this last year watched an indoor 3-d contest on one of the sport channels guys hitting targets 50 to 60 yards I was inspired to try a release again this time spending endless hours practicing I even impressed my wife 3inch groups at 40yards and again managed to blow a shot at a deer that I know I would haved bagged had I been shooting fingers. So I definately Know where your comming from .For me it has nothing to do with the release aid Ill be the first to admit there more accurate than fingers and it may be I havent found the right one but, as far as hunting goes Im back to shooting fingers Its just more comfortable for me Its how I learned and we are all creatures of habit.I like the quietness of fingers I like the low maintenance I like no serving wear I like not having a cluncky thing dangleing around my wrist making noise hitting things blocking binoculars I like the cost of a tab over a release the simlicity of tuning. the speed and reliability of fingers . Well enough of my yakin I just thought I'd share my little revelation with ya. Oh yeah I to am contiplating feathers to vanes. Ill obsess more on that one after I find my ultimate finger rest. Have a good one.

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

After injuring my wrist (construction accident), I had to give up my beloved Fletcher 3D. Bought a Winn SS Caliper, which kept me shooting. It's good for hunting, but I've also done pretty well with it for 3D and field rounds. It also gives you maximum draw length.

The only thing I don't like is you have to &quot;safety&quot; it by pressing on the back of the trigger as you draw, lest you get an accidental discharge. For this reason I tried Winn's new hook loop model, but sent it back because it has a horrendously stiff trigger pull.

Tried the Tru-Ball Grizzly glove. Great trigger, but the darn thing is so squishy and flexible. It's like a greased dishrag as you draw; you have to squeeze it like mad. Plus I lost about an inch of draw length over the Winn.

(Wish I could get the crisp release of the Fletcher 3D on the Winn glove. Best of every world: No need to safety the trigger, maximum draw length, firm glove, and crisp release. Any manufacturer listening?)

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Man I have condemed short ATA bows because I wouldnt give up my Winn. It was the release I learned to shoot with, heck its all I know about release shooting. That is a pretty cool idea though the tru fire head on a Winn glove. I just bought two carbon arrows to experiment with been useing alums forever but so far they are pretty impressive. I think if a person learns to shoot with a winn release its gonna be tough to get used to any thing else hill

RE: REVELATIONS! (?)
 

Can anyone think of a reason the scott mongoose release head (made for a wrist strap) won't fit on a winn glove?