Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Does anyone have a good set of instructions for tuning/adjusitng tiller - other than the Easton tuning guide?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

I've posted the method I use many, many times. Tried to find it for you so I wouldn't have to type it out once more, but the search function isn't working... AGAIN! Maybe SOMEDAY the forum will get a search function that actually works.[>:]

Anyway, here's the way I do it. There are some ways of doing this that are pretty involved. I've tried them all and settled on this one. Down and dirty.

1) Start off setting your tiller to where it measures equal distance from the limb to the string at each end of the riser. For a single cam bow, you have to stretch a string over the axles and measure to that, rather than to the bowstring.

2) Set your nock point.

3) Assume your normal shooting stance. Hold your bow out and put a sight pin on a point on the wall, target, etc. Any aiming point works fine. Begin to draw the bow straight back. (This is also an excellent test to determine if you are over-bowed.)

4) Watch the sight pin. It will probably pull off the target either up or down.

5) If the pin pulls up, you must take a turn off the top limb bolt, add a turn to the bottom limb bolt, or both. If it pulls down, take a turn off the bottom limb bolt, add a turn to the top one, or both. Keep adjusting in smaller increments until the pin doesn't try to move up or down as you draw.

6) Done. Now continue with your normal tuning procedure.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Arthur; will the tiller adjustment stay consistant pulling different draw weigts? ie,if i set tiiler on 50 lbs and the lower limb is say 1/8" less on the lower limb will this hold true if say i increase dr weight to say 62lbs?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

There are no guarantees because you never know exactly how each limb is going to react as you change the amount of tension on them. But, if you turn each limb bolt exactly the same amount, then it should stay very close. You'll usually only need to make slight adjustments, if any.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Thanks ARTHUR. Man you guys know some stuff! I'm glad I found this site.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Thanks Arthur,
I will use the search engine when it is available.

I will try this out tonight.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

KW,

The Easton Tuning Guide addresses tiller by adjusting the nocking point.

Your whisker biscuit will work best with the limb bolts set at an even tiller, which can be set real close by simply backing both limb bolts out from max an equal amount,and nocking the correct spine arrow at 90degrees to the bowstring.

The windage for the whisker biscuit for a right handed shooter, will often be about 1/8" to the outside of the centerline of the bow, because the bowstring when its released, moves a little bit to the left at the release.

The windage should be set to the point where the bow shoots its narrowest groups. Cam leans and cableguard tensions as well as draw weight are not going to be the same on all bows, so setting a bow up with a lazer is just a starting point not the end of the game.

If the bow is set at an even tiller, and the cams are in time, and you are shooting the correct spine arrow for the bow, and you have determined the correct windage setting for the rest, you should be shooting the arrow level from the bow.

If the arrow doesn't hit level, but hits nock high, you can adjust the tiller to correct by adding tiller to the lower limb, (tighten the lower limb bolt).

If the arrow doesn't hit level but hits nock low, you can correct the tiller by adding tiller to the upper limb, (tighten the upper limb bolt). Untill the arrow hits the bale level.

You can also subtract tiller from each limb to steer the nock lower or higher, while keeping the arrow nocked at 90degrees to the bowstring.

If you want to have the arrow hit with the nock lower either add tiller to the lower limb, or subtract it from the upper limb.

If you want to have the arrow hit with the nock higher either add tiller to the upper limb, or subtract it from the lower limb.

Even tiller bows shoot quieter because the limbs cancel each other out. The recoil at the shot is even and they don't kick up or down at the shot.

Properly set up your bow will shoot many differently spined arrows accurately at ten yards, but only the correct spine arrows for your bow will still hit the same vertical line at 10-20-30-40-50yards. Doing a walk-back tune with too light a spine arrow will show a hook to the left. Too heavy a spine will shoot to the right.

Most of the bows that I have set up with a whisker biscuit you could simply line up the centerline of the bowstring with the nocked arrow and the front sightpin and they would all line up together. Some bows had cam leans that needed the rest moved a bit to the left in order to shoot the best.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Arroman,
Great info thanks. Just got new arrows and my WB is left of centerline as you predicted. The bow is27.5" @ 70 lbs 2006 Allegiancewith speed mods and 27" 5575 GT pro hunters with 100 grain tips. The WB is about as far to the left as prudent adjustment will allow. I was getting a more serious nock right tear (1"+ - see pic). It looked like my blazers were contacting the cable so I rotated the arrow a few degrees and the size of the right tear immediately decreased to about 3/8". I would like to get ride of the remaining right tear but I can't move the WB any further left.

With the limb bolts buried, I have a very slight nock high tear (1/8"). I mightloosen theupperlimb bolt to see if I can get rid of it.I can live with this small nock high tear. The left is more worrisome (to me).

Any further suggestions on the right nock tear?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

KW,

In my experience the 55/75 GT Hunters ran out of spine at@63#@30".

With a 70# bow the arrow absorbs over 500Gs at launch.

You might want to either lower your draw weight to match your arrow to a walk-back tune or experiment with a stiffer shaft.

If your bow does hit the same vertical line at all distances the slight tail-right you get could be caused by too tight a grip on your bow.

Sorting things out should be fun. Get some rubber blunts and shoot at 100yards at a cardboard box or a bale target and see how the arrows actually fly. Take your time and use your best shooting form. Any bias in your grip, shooting form, and in your bowtune will be easy to see at this range. And your confidence in closer range shots will increase too.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Arrroman,
The arrows are only 27" (vice 30") so I hope I am not underspined. My walk back tuning is good so maybe I should work on my grip and leave it alone...?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

I may be misinterpreting your statement, but if you are testing spine, you should be using a bare shaft. If they are weak they will will fly right. If you're doing a walk-back with fletched shafts, adjustments are usually made to the rest position. Spine tests should be done before walk-back tuning tests are started. Even if you didn't do it correctly, I would still expect the weak fletched arrow to fly to the right, the farther back you go.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

How do you determine the centerline of the bow? Do you measure it from the riser? I shoot a Mathews Legacy and I believe they say it is 13/16" from the riser. Should I start with my whisker biscuit there?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

To find the centerline sit down and rest the bottom cam of the bow on your leg, then sight the bowstring through the center of the upper wheel and follow that line down to the grip.

What you will probably notice is that the grip itself is not centered, but offset to the right.

Most of the time the sight pins will be oriented to the centerline, but the rest itself will tend to be about 1/8" to the left of the centerline for the bow to shoot its narrowest groups.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

I'm an oldtimer when it comes to bow tuning. Been doing it since limbs had brackets bolted to themwith the wheels (now called cams) attached to them. I see lots of good advice on here for tuning, and eyeballing centerline but not a FINISHED tiller adj.
Tiller and Nock must gohand in hand. Here's my methods:

1. 2 cam bows (older style): turn limbs until bottomed out and then decrease evenly no more than 3 turns at a time each, until a comfortable draw wt is attained. Here is the best advice through this whole thing FORGET WHAT THE SCALE SAYS. Comfort is more important. Now set the limbs for even tiller measurement from the back of the limb where it leaves the riser to a point on the string where the square or other measuring device passes the string as you swing in an arc keeping the end of the meas. dev. tight on the limb/riser. Now set the noc pointor string loop and noc an arrow. Next, make a small mark at the point where the cam and string meet. Next have someone watch and someone S-L-0-W-L-Y begin to draw. (I used to do it in a full length mirror, but it is better when someon watches) Watch which mark leaves first. Loosen that limbs bolt 1/2 turn until theyboth leave at the same time. This isconsidered TIMING a bow.You can do this in smaller increments until perfect. NOW set the nock to 3/16or 1/4" above sqare using the rest mount hole in the riser as a centerline. Or attach a string loop. Now you should be square but try the drawing process again, watching your marks. It doesn't matter now ifmarksare exactly at the string/wheel junction at this point....just make sure they both move at the same time. NOW paper tune the bow USING THE REST TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS...I can't for the life of me figure out why someone does this process by setting a rest out of place then making the bow out totime to match the rest If you can't tune it by the rest, then you needa rest more in TUNE with your skill level. I truly think this mistake all started when people boughtmicrotune target rests for hunting bows and didn'tknow how to set them up properly. Of course if you are using an old stick on ornon adj. springy rest you do itby ARROW SPINE.

HINT>>>You may also find that your bow will group best past 10yds with an inch high, inch left tear at 7ft. Give it a try....this tip was given to me on the shooting line at the worlds in Vegas by the most highly regarded spot shooter ever....Hint, he made a Wheaties Box. Improved my xrings from 51 to 59 and the one miss was me!!!


2 SINGLE CAM. Use the same basic process as above, except....Set the tiller using string pulled tight from axle to axle as mentioned above...THEN...make the marks on the cam this timeATFULL DRAW. Now adjust according to which one starts to go forward first. This one will seperate the men from the boys, or tell you if you are overbowed.Again be sure your nock is set at 3/16" abovedeadcenter andhave an arrow nocked at all times and pointed in a safe direction. Also be sure to useYOUR release.

HINT>>>> The newer model 05 newer have centerlines built into the laminations of of the grip. They are dark grey lines I believe.

This should help you get where you need to be.

If broadheads won't shoot then spin them first. If they spin true, check your arrow spine by trying a size or two up and down the scale. This is easier than screwing the whole thing up by trying to tune them andfind outlater itwas a spine problem.If that fails....PAPER TUNE THE THING ALL OVER AGAIN.

HINT>>>> This one I saved for last because I didn't want crucified yet.....Bare Shaft Shooting is OVERRATED....who hunts with bare shafts???? TUNE IT WITH WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SHOOT. Yes, Before you flame me up, I know the reasoning...but still, why check all those points when fletching CHANGES THE SPINE ANYWAY. Do youreally think adding the wt. and drag on that shaft doesn't change things???

WELL, here is 30+ yrs of shooting and tuning experience the best I can tell it.
If something is unclear, post or better yet shoot me a PM.


Dave

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

KW,

My best friend gave me a copy of the Easton Tuning Guide 35years ago. I used to keep it under the cover of my Webster's dictionary.

I did download the Pdf version from Easton a few years ago and it hadn't changed by much.

They never did address balancing tiller by using adjustable limb bolts.

Simply put, the nock point height that is necessary in order to launch a level arrow is determined by the bow's tiller.

A higher than 90degree nocking point will require additional tiller on the lower limb in order to launch a level arrow.

A lower than 90degree nocking point will require additional tiller on the upper limb in order to launch a level arrow.

So whether the arrow runs uphill, or downhill to the rest, there will be a tiller combination that can launch a level arrow from the bow.

The original whisker biscuit was a full circle of bristles that encircled the arrow. It was a slightly larger diameter hole than the diameter of the arrow that was to be shot through it. And the tiller combination that does not create either a rising or diving arrow from the bowstring is even, which work well with a 90degree arrow on the bowstring.

The newer whisker biscuits work the same way.

The difference between banging the arrow against a rest or having that arrow leave the bow clean is often a matter of tiller.

I have several buckets of arrows that are underspine for what I would use for hunting. But if I lower the draw weight of the bow to match those arrows I can still shoot them for targets. And being able to properly tiller the bow means you can leave the nockpoint alone and tune the bow with a wrench.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

If you're talking about just barely moving the nocking point to clean up an almost perfect paper hole, then I can go along with making a small tiller adjustment. If you're talking about moving the nock point 1/8" or more, leave tiller alone and move the nock point.

Personally, I don't mess with my tiller once I get it where I want it. I make all my tuning adjustments with the rest and nock point. It's a little more effort to do it that way, but I want it right.

Also, I get my cams timed and/or synchronized by twisting the cables instead of messing with tiller. We had to do that tiller thing to some degree back in the days of steel cables, but it's not necessary any more. You can now have perfect tiller AND perfect timing if you want it.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

ArthurP is right as always. I have the utmost respect for his advice and agree with 99.99% of it. I didn't add using the cable twisting because I figured the ones with a press already knew that and the ones without a press don't need to be trying it.

I think if you see what he and I are saying about Keeping one TIMED while working on the TUNING, you will see that it is very important.

Advice that should be heeded by all newbie bow tuners and those that have been taught to papertune with the limb bolts.

Dave in WV (formerly DBOWGUY, arthurp Remember me now??)

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

In an ideal world the bow will be assembled with the limbs matched, and the cam(s) in time, at maximum poundage, and everything in spec as per brace height and axle to axle overall length.

Any bias in limb weight will draw the bowstring to the end of the bow that pulls more weight.

This method I postedissimple. Its testable. And it works.

I like being able to look at the bowstring with an arrow on the rest and know instantly whether or not the string has stretched or something has changed, and when you have even tiller and the arrow is at 90degrees you can see real quick if something is out of line.

When I replace strings and cables on my bows I always set the bow up to factory specifications at maximum draw weight.

I don't use brass nockpoints on my bowstrings anymore. I tie a permanent double serving about 1/2" long above the arrow and it doesn't move. Once you understand how tiller works you don't have to move the nockpoint.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

How would using tiller to adjust timing on a single cam work? On my single cams the timing position is measured with the bow at rest. Changing tiller does not affect it's position. Changes to timing are made by adjusting cable and string lengths on a modern single cam.



Using that logic - who hunts big game with field tips? Yet, many tune with them. I'm guessing all your tuning must be with broadheads? Actually, that's not a bad idea as long as you don't bare shaft with broadheads.

No flame here, just disagreement. I've bareshaft tested hundreds of arrow groups. I use to add an equal weight of
masking tape to the fletched area to make up for the lack of feather weight. That is, until I realized the 5 grains was insignificant and they flew and tested the same. If you're using some heavy 20 grains fletch, I would recommend adding the masking tape. It works. There is very good reason to bareshaft test - it enables you to easily get broadheads flying right with fletched shafts or bareshafts. In other words, the broadhead tipped arrow will not plane to a different point of impact.

How a person can get proper spine from a chart and paper holes is beyond me. I've never been able to do it and I don't see anyone else can. I can get close, but close doesn't cut it when shooting broadheads - literally.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

I don't bareshaft test. I did, but I don't bother anymore.

Proper spine arrows will fly in a straight line from the bow. and improper spine arrows don't.

Most arrows will hit real close at 10-15yards but that doesn't mean they are of correct spine for your bow.

And the situation gets worse when someone of limited skill and competence decides to screw on a broadhead and take a shot at a deer at 25yards and finds he shot a footor more away fromwhere he was holding.

I reccomend rubber blunts and shooting the bow at 100yards for a reason.

Proper spine is what proper spine does. (I'll give Forest Gump credit for that one.)

Go ahead and put a box at the base of a telephone pole at 100yards, and see if you can hit it when you have a nice long vertical line above the target to sight on.

I want people to learn and understandhow the bow and arrow works.

Success creates confidence and confidence is a good thing to have.

Good luck hunting! >>>------------->

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

OK, I am not going to cut and past all this straight arrow. I agree with arrowman on this one. No need to bare shaft tune. Yes Screw in broadheads and paper tune using the rest IF everything was properly set before. Again I agree that Proper spine will shoot, improper won't.

Single cam....Does you cam feed the idler at the same time it takes up the buss cable.....are you sure. Make some marks and find out. If you have your buss cable too tight or loose it will not feed correctly due to higher preload on one side....either cable or string. It takes marks on both idler and cam to see it and you can't do it on the draw cycle, has to be on the release cycle. The mathews maxcam is well known for this and it is hyper prone to cable stretch.

As for bare shafts, do it if that is your method. But to me, It turned out to be a waste of valuable time with my family. It never made my BH's shoot any better than the method listed above. No harm, no foul, we can pleasantly agree to disagree.

Gods Blessings to you,

Dave

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

man, i make the bow ride my shooting style - the way art says. factory specs and even tiller are for the birds. the front of the bow will only fit a fraction of the population at factory specs.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

I am gonna sound ignorant here but who said bottom out and factory specs?? I sure didn't....did I?

If I did, I been working way too hard![:o]

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

No arguement there. I'm sure guys with your experience can get quite close by just knowing what arrow configuration works with your preferred setup. I'm usually almost exact without much testing, simply because I've done it so many times. However, I often wonder about inexperienced guys. Hopefully they have a talented person at the local bow shop to get them setup properly. My response is for those who don't. I bareshaft because I like getting things exact, even if it's not completely neccessary. As far as the time spent bareshafting, it can be very little if you have some experience at what adjustment needs to be made next. If you don't have that experince, it's even more important that a person does it. I've seen guys stand in front of paper way longer than what it takes me to get the spine spot-on. My point is, if you're not sure what will work, bareshafting is what will tell you exactly what is happening.

I realize that you can have spine off a bit and correct it with movement away from centershot with the rest. I don't like doing this because I think bows that have their rest set to perfect centershot, shoot with more forgiveness when using broadheads. Therefore, if I want to have the arrow aligned on centershot, I can only adjust spine to accomplish the perfect broadhead flight. Bareshafting is the only way I've found to do this well.

I find many beginners and those at an intermediate level of experience, spending a lot of time tuning their bows and almost no time tunig their arrows. It is my firm belief that if they reversed that effort, they'd end up with much better shooting setups for broadhead tipped arrows.

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

It takes time to learn about things.

If the only bow you had ever seen was one that had been improperly stored in an overheated shed, chances are the nock would be too high, the strings stretched, and the cams severely out of time, and it would shoot poorly and be loud as hell when shot.

I try to steer people in the direction where they can get their equipment back to the state in which it was originally designed.

Hopefully people will have the prescience of mind to make the appropriate adjustment to their tackle and avoid the problems that may occur.

Just because a bowshould beset at its correct brace height, ATA, and correct cam rotation, at its maximum draw weight to be tuned; that doesn't mean you can't lower its weight to shoot it.

The point is you have to start somewhere. And establishing a baseline where you can't ask anymore from the limbs then what they were designed for is a pretty good place to start.

Most of todays bows are designed to be shot at an even tiller. And to launch an arrow level from an even tillered bow the best place to nock your arrow is at 90degrees to the bowstring.

The proof is in the shooting.

If you want to screw with the nockpoint to match the tiller, that can work too.

But if you can add or subtract tiller from either limb to achieve the same thing, why would you risk beating up the serving on your string to do it?

Good luck hunting! >>>------------>

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

Wow what a pile of confusing and conflicting information here..........[:-].

In my opinion to be adjusting tiller for nock position or timing is simply a bandaid and easy fix when these issues should probably be fixed by using another method. In my opinion using tiller to fix these items is going to affect holding characteristics of the bow........1/8-1/4 turn can so drastically change the float of your dot on a target and the thought of changing this from optimum position for your hold on a target (which may or may not be a 0 tiller setting) so that you can change location ofa nock point that can/should rather be made by moving nock point, or to use it to change timing that can/should rather be made by twisting cables is ridiculous.

Help me to understand how exactly todays bows are designed to be shot at an even tiller when we as shooters are all different and we all have 1000's of different accessory options that affect the way we hold the bow at full draw in regards to balance?

Knowing no two people grip the bow the same way, and that something as minute as stabilizer weight and balance can offset where on the grip of the bow pressure is being applied at full draw, how can even tiller be designed into a bow as optimum?When we as shooters aren't consistent from person to person with hand placement, and our accessories on the bow create different front/back balance scenarioshow can 0 tiller be optimum?

Nomsayin?

RE: Good instructions for Tiller adjustment/tuning?
 

i can guarantee you he doesn't know what you're saying. matter of fact i think he made most of it up, or copied it from a book.