Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Thought I'd ask first... I've got a dozen ACC's I'm about to cut down. I've still got a half-dozen that fly great out of my setup left from my last batch, and I could always cut them the same length of those and be done with it...

I'm curious though about those who own those software programs if you'd be willing to run the numbers and see what specs it spit out at you.

65 lbs., hard cams

28 1/2" dl plus short loop

ACC 3/60s... three four-inch feathers, G-nock and 100-grain head

Anything else you may need? Thanks to whomever would be willing to run it through...

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Need the bow model and year. Any string silencers? How about a peep?

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Mostly shooting them out of an '07 Guardian and an '07 Allegiance... if you have to pick one, use the Guardian I guess.

Fletcher 1/4" Tru Peep, and factory hush kit. (probably about the same weight as String Leeches, I would think)

Thanks Bruce.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Will run it tonight for you..........can alsoemail you a trajectory sheet showing exact trajectory from 0 to 90 yards. Just last week I got the update for all the 07 stuff.

Been playing in OT2 a ton lately, I have been dedicating almost an hour a night tolearning to judge yardage better between 30-50 yards.When I get done each night with my practice (no bow in hand, only rangefinder, pen, andpaper) I plot out each "shot" for my estimated distance and actual distance in their simulation mode and can see how many points I would have either picked up or dropped (assuming perfect shots) for the number of guesses I picked. OT2 is really an amazing tool and their updates for 07' are truly awesome.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

With the info you gave (I used a 29" arrow, raw shaft length)you are shooting stiff right now. A 30" shaft and a 125 grain tip still has it shooting stiff.

A 3/49 at 28" will work with a 100grain tip

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

hmmm... that's a bit surprising the program says that. Easton's chart says the 3-60s are spot on, no matter if I pick the 62-66 weight range or the 67-72 for a 29" length arrow.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

The static spine is .340 and the program gives the dynamic spine as .3557 so, while it says you are shooting stiff the discrepancy is not all that far off. Easton may say that anything from .360 to .320 is fine for that particular arrow. The program seems to be geared toward target archery as opposed to hunting archery. As a matter of fact an arrow will show stiff when you have the target box checked and may show fine when you have the hunting box checked. When taking into account the tolerances that are acceptable then, even if the program says your arrow is a bit stiff, it may still shoot just fine for you. As you know, when you get the arrow in the right spec"range" and the bow in the right spec"range" you still have to tune them together.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Gotcha, Bruce... I guess what I'm looking at here is instead of just whacking them off at 29" like normal, I thought I'd see what some of these new-fangled computer programs said might give the best result. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask before I put them to the saw... I'd hate to whack 'em off and then see a thread or post later on that says "29 1/4 is the way to go on ACC's shot out of 65-67 lb. Bowtechs... " :)

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

You could always cut 3 ofthem at say, 30.5" (maybe to weak at that length but, hey.....), fletch them, take them out and shoot a bit with them and see how they do. Maybe then take 3 more (or those same 3) and cut them (if it were the same 3 cut the fletch end)to 29.5", fletch them and shoot them for a while. You would have to fine tune the bow each time but that is part of the fun too LOL :D. This is the part I really love about bowhunting/archery. You can tinker, discover and keep learning about your equipment continuously.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

greg, i've got a acc 3-60 at 29" shooting 286.71fps out of a 28.5" 65# guardian w/ 4" gateway feathers and a 100 gr tip. foc is 10.1%.
spine is optimum!

a 125gr tip will give you 279.55fps and a 12.5% foc and a spine dead on optimum.


cut it at 28" and you'll be shooting a 125 gr tip at 282.06 w/ a slightly stiff spine (great) and a foc of 12.8% - still maybe a little low for hunting, but probably just fine - depening what you prefer.

this was w/ archer's advantage (hopefully i put the info in correctly)

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

The thing I didn't like about archers advantage is that it doesn't take into consideration things like string silencers, peeps, d-loops and some other stuff. You may very well be right in your assessment but if what I have learned is correct, once you start adding weigh to the string then you will impact the FPS.

When I entered everything for my setup into OT and then checked the FPS with a chrono it was very close. Also, archers advantage showed me being on the weak side of optimum and OT showed me being on the stiff side of optimum and paper tuning indicated that I was on the stiff side. It may be because I spent more time with OT than AA but for me, and my results, OT was closer to what was really happening with my setup.

This is not a slam against AA, for all I know my use of OT could be wrong, but it is just what I found when I compared the actual end result to the computed results.

EDIT: In looking around I found the spot for the dloop in AA. I was wrong about that item.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Thanks John... From all the looks of it, 29" with my rig is gonna pretty much be spot on. Figured that, since my old ACCs flew great at 29... Just wanted to see what came up running the figures through those programs, since I've never played with any of them before. I just don't buy that many new arrows. Bows yes, arrows no. :)

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

If you buy alot of new bows then you need to change a little for optimum spine with each.All bows shoot slightly different and each arrow bow combo may needto be changed a pound or 2 to get you right in the middle.


From what I have seen and read from you,you would love a program and would benefit greatly from it.


They aren't that expensive either.;)


How do your speeds check with gibblet's findings? If they are right,thenI would say heis dead on.I always like to know how the bow actually performs before I put too much into what it says for arrow selection.If the speed is right,aa is dead on.Atleast for me it has been.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm really suprised you don't have OnTarget already. I can honestly say that program is just as addicting and beneficial as these forums! It's amazing. I won't make any changes to my setup without running it through OT first.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

All of the bows I've shot over the last several years have basically been the same setup... hard cams at 67 lbs (sometimes drop to 65 for lots of shooting over the off-season or when it gets really cold)... Even though the bow technically changes frequently, it's still the same setup -- at least close enough that minor tinkering gets them spot-on.

I did order my first 60-lber recently (for 3-D) so that'll be my first radically different setup in some time. I haven't yet seen the need to get the program based on the fact that all seven of my personal bows I've set up in the last couple years have been so similar from how they're entered in Easton's spec charts. They've always ended up great for me. Read just enough posts on here to get me intrigued so I thought I'd ask. It does sound like RJ is using his for a whole lot more than just setup, though... Interesting.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

They can be used for a whole lot more than just spine.You can set pin gap.Heck you can even print target 5 spot faces and fita targets and vegas face targets on AA.



If you have bows with as little as 5-7 fps ibo rating,your arrow choice could change or you may change poundage by 1# to get that perfect spine.


You definately don't need a program to get the perfect spine but mine has worked on all MY bows.I has been a little off for some others though.


www.archersadvantage.com

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

I got close to the same result as bruce did.

The pin gap feature is great. I set my 55 yd floating pin for French tuning and then set the rest of my pins off of that. Usually, the pins are pretty close to right on and require only a little adjustment to correct.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

You can print 5 spot faces,vegas targets and even fita targets with AA.You can also set pin gap.


How about Looking at actuall arrow trajectory for those tight shots.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Or looking at actuall ke downrange or total arrow drop.






And of course,spine and arrow selections.[8D]

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

OK, OK... LOL ... You guys are gonna cost me some more money, I can see that right now!! :D:D

It's a good thing my wife just left and went upstairs... [:-]

Does the website say how much that program costs?

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Just went to the site... answered my own question: a LOT cheaper than I would have thought.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

[8D]:D


You will love either On Target or Archers Advantage.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

I saw where bruce mentioned there's differences between the two... anything that would be a decision-maker over the other from those who've used both?

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

I have the newest version of AA and love it.I was also a beta tester for the previous AA program so I am well experienced with that .


The On Target program I downloaded as a free trial wasn't as user friendly imo but was a great program.That was the original version.I have a friend that uses/used the original OT and we were always real close on spine.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

Greg,

If you getting into 3D seriously, (I don't think AA offers this) OT2 will allow you to select different McKenzie, Delta, or Rhinehart targets and will show you exactly where on the scoring rings you will hit when you input your estimated distance, and actual distance. It can also account for wind speed as well. This doesn't sound all that interesting unless you decide to really make a committment to getting better at judging yardage for 3D.

Based upon the advice of a guy I am working with who has an IBO semi pro world title and ASA semi pro shooter of the year title, I am working on yardage guessing by walking in the woods with no bow, just a range finder and my shooting journal. I pick 30 random objects between 30-50 yards and write down actual distance and distance I guessed it for. When I get home each night, I upload the profile for my 3D bow setup and then go into OT2's simulation mode and can plot out exactly what I would have scored assuming perfect shots. Everyone I know that got really good from the pro stakes at the national level says that you have to practice this judging with no bow in your hand, and this is the best way to have hard data that I have seen to track improvement.........

Based on this feature alone, unless AA has it as well I would look heavily towards OT2. I do know AA is accurate though, lots of pro archers prepare tapes and cut charts off it for field archery and have done very well. I know Doug Williams Jr. promotes it heavily and he might just be the best field archer out there now, and nothing will test the accuracy of your sight tape like field archery.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

AA prints much better targets, much better. And, as Tfox says it is more user friendly.

OT2 is not as user friendly but it lets me use more detailed info. I don't do #D but it has that feature that Rick James talked about.

Either one will be as good as the other for determining sight tapes, arrows, trajectorys, etc.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

The trajectory chart on AA will tell you what distance you will hit a 12 ring or kill zone of a Mckenzie but that is the only targets for 3-d it has.


You can also fill out a shooting log with ALL info and you can chart what your tendancies are.Probably not something you are interested in but for serious fita shooters something to think about.

RE: Any on-target users want to give input?
 

I can speak for OT2's lackluster customer support.... I emailed numerous times back and forth and never got ANYTHING figured out. I gave up because the emails were of no help to me or my problem. Mine hasnot worked properly for around a year now.