Arrow cutting
 

A bunch of you guys on here have recommended that you cut off the arrow at both ends. Normally the bends in a carbon shaft are on the end.

Today I talked to GT about replacing 2 of my arrows that are bent on the ends when I recieved them.(They are sending me 2 new arrows)

Tim expanded a little one what I've learned here. He recommends cutting an equal length off of each end. Not final length. Spin the arrow to see if one end still wobbles. If one end still wobbles cut that end off to get arrow to length. If both wobblecut again on both ends(Not to final length). I know that if my arrows would have been cut at both ends I wouldn't have needed 2 new ones. The other arrows in the set are good.

So, I'm buying some sort of cutoff saw and from now on cutting myself or having a friend do it.

The question I have is: Why doesn't all of the shops or places like Bowhunter's Superstore do this if this is a known issue that is easy to correct by cutting both ends?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Because when you have ten people waiting for your time they tend to get irritated when otherpeople "nit-pick" things like this.

And the fact that far too many self proclaimed experts couldn't hit the barn walls if they were standing inside no matter what you did to their arrows.

And most people purchase the least expensive shaft to begin with and it isn't just the ends that's screwed up so it doesn't help many people all that much. I'd say that 80% of my sales are low grade shafts/ arrows. The vast majority of the bow hunters aren't as picky about their equipment as most of us here. See the thread titled "confusing".

A better question would be..... Why don't the manufacturers do this if it is a known problem?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Wow, why all the hostility? I am new to carbons and just asked a simple question and don't think a response like yours is very friendly on a public forum. I can see why so many people are afraid to ask questions. I on the other hand could give a crap if someone is going to throw attitude. So, I ask away.

Now to the thread
Asking for good service is not nit-picking. If I'm paying for arrows that are supposed to bewithin a certain tolerance, whether paying $65 or $200, then the arrows should be within those specs. And it's just as much the shop owners responsibility as it is the manufacturer. The shop owner represents the manufacturer by carrying and selling their products. If they feel the products are not up to spec then they should contact the company or stop carrying the product.

No, it's not always the end. However, from talking to people, shop owners and manufacturers,that's where the majority of the problem is. Furthermore, the specs are based on the middle of the arrow. Therefore, the middle of the arrow must meet those specs.

In closing, the "confused" thread was misleading and has no bearing on my question or thread. The guy boughtarrows for probably 1/4 of their real price and then says why should you pay that much.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

What I have seen and heard in talking to a guy that worked at the "pro shop" near where I live is that most arrows arrive already fletched so that the shop can only cut one end, the tip end, off. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that these are the lower-end arrows (pre-fletched)that the manufacturer sends and not the high-end arrows. If I were going to buy arrows from a shop I would ask for unfletched arrows and ask for them to trim both ends. In doing that I would also expect to have to wait or even come back to pick them up.

All of this is part of the many reasons I decided to invest in my own arrow making equipment. Although I am new to archery/bowhunting I expect to be involved year-round for the next couple of decades, at least, and with the only good pro shop 60 miles away (Len's) it seemed more cost effective, not to mention much more rewarding to build my own arrows, among other self-sufficient archery/bowhunting stuff. The satisfaction I have already received from "designing" and making the 3 types of arrows I'll be using this season AND seeing them perform like I hoped is very rewarding.

One other thing about cutting arrows. When cutting an end I spin the arrow while making a first "etch" around it and then keep spinning while making the finishing cut. This makes an extremely clean cut. I have taken a piece of shaft and just shoved it through the cutter and this makes an ugly, almost frayed cut. If you are having someone else cut your arrows I would definitely ask them how they actually cut the arrow and if they just run it through without spinning it and double cutting then I would take my business elsewhere.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

brucelantier,

Thanks for the great response. When i created the thread I was talking about shafts and probably should have stated that. I assumed that the knowledgeable people here would understand that like you did. I know that there is nothing they can do about an arrow unlessthey built it themselves in a shop.

I too would have no problem returning to a shop for shafts if I wanted them cut on both ends.

However, like you I've decided to build my own arrows where I know if there's a problem with the arrow it's my fault or I can try and fix it. The first set of arrows I bought I had a friend cut who spun them while cutting. He used to own a shop in PA and now lives on the Eastern Shore. The problem with using his cutter is he's 120 miles away. So, I'm just going to purchase a cutter. I'm sure between me, family and friendsI can get it to pay for itself. Plus, if I want to get into dynamic spining an arrow I'll have to cut the arrow a few times.

I've built 2 different types of arrows so far and like you are talking about i have pride in knpwing an arrow I built is hitting the mark. Harvesting a deer this fall will be the ultimate thrill.

Thank you for your input and enjoy building and tinkering.

By the way. This is off topic. Have you started building your spine tester yet? I believe you were posting on the same thread I was on the spine tester built by Black Frog?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

I have not yet decided that I am going to make one or that I need one yet. Couple of reasons: I spoke with Len about the shafts I use, he also uses them, and when he got the brand into his shop he tested the spine on a large group and found it to be very consistant across all of the arrows. Sure, you can always get the bad arrow but he showed me a way while paper tuning that I can also do a decent check of the spine (rotate the nock). So, what I do now is run my arrows through paper and see if the tear changes while I rotate the nock 120 degrees. All of the arrows I have now checked out good. They shoot good groups out to 50 yd with regular blazers, mini blazers and feathers. They shoot good groups out to 40 yds using broadheads on the reg blazers and feathers (don't have the broadheads for the mini's yet).

What I guess I am saying in a longwinded fashion is that I have found a maker of carbon shafts that I think makes a high quality product so now spine testing with a device has become less of an issue for me. Now I didn't get them for $55 a dozen but I don't think $104 + shipping for 12 useable arrows is bad either.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Dave, I dont think bigbulls was being nasty to you at all . In fact what he said makes a lot of sense. If you want the pro shop to spend the amount of time it would take to do what you are asking . Then you best be ready to spend 3 to 4 dollars per arrow to have them cut down. Time is money and what you are asking for is going to take a lot of time to get it done. You are doing the right thing though in getting your own arrow saw so that you can be as anal about it as you wish. I am the same way when I scale out my arrows. I am not happy till I have them within +/-.1 grain from heaviest to lightest arrow. To do a dozen arrows to be within one tenth of grain plus or minus takes me at least a whole night to do but I am anal about it . Even though I dont shoot good enough to tell the difference , I know the arrows are as good as I can make them when I am done.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Dave:

I have to agree with archer 2. Bigg Bull's response was very straightforward and stated reality.

Quote:

---

Asking for good service is not nit-picking.

---

Good service is what I always try to provide, but there is a limit of what I can offer and still be competitive in my marketplace. Keep in mind that BPS is 7 miles away and Dick's is only 1 mile away. I've also got two other Pro shops within that 7 mile radius.

Many of the manufacturers send their shafts in with nock installed. To cut them at the nock end requires removing those nocks, which can be damaged somewhat in the process, cutting the shaft at the nock end and then re-inserting the nock. If it has to be done a second time, the chances of damaging the nocks increase. All of this is extra cost and can cut extensively into whatever fixed profit we had set.

Quote:

---

If I'm paying for arrows that are supposed to bewithin a certain tolerance, whether paying $65 or $200, then the arrows should be within those specs.

---

As I've stated many times on this and other forums, the manufacturers advertise the tolerances, not the PRO Shops. The fact that they are seldom met by many manufacturers cannot be the responsibility of the shop. In an effort to offer my customers better product yield, I try to steer them to the better manufacturers. But, due to advertising and name brand recognition, I am forced to carry certain brands in spite of their shortcomings.

Quote:

---

And it's just as much the shop owners responsibility as it is the manufacturer. The shop owner represents the manufacturer by carrying and selling their products.

---

The only areas where we generallysign yearly contracts are with bow manufacturers, and even that is not 'set in concrete.' We try to have a 'relationship' with manufacturers, but that is most often very touchy.

Quote:

---

If they feel the products are not up to spec then they should contact the company or stop carrying the product.

---

I've tried this with many manufacturers but I usually wind up irritating the company and/or customers for not having a certain 'popular' product that they want.It's a 'Catch 22' situation for many of us Dealers.

And one more thing, selecting a dozen arrows out of a 'bunch' is not done by me and I don't allow it by any of my customers. If I were to allow that, the last customers buying within a certain batch would wind up with nothing but the 'bottom of the barrel.' That last customer could be just someone like you; or, someone like the shop owner who couldn't get rid of the garbage and have to 'eat' it. I encourage my customers to spine their arrowsbefore they leave the shop to 'select' the better ones for broadheads and use the others for practice. After all, this is what I do!!

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Just a side note to what you mentioned. There are not just three orientations for a nock on a normal three-fletch arrow. There are six. Each fletch position can have the nock rotated 180 degrees, that means two nock orientations at each fletch position. And that CAN make a difference.

Very interesting shooting bareshafts out of a Hooter Shooter and indexing nock orientations. On some shafts as you turn the nock you'll see a circular imact pattern form.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

bruce & Black,

I'm assuming that the paper test for spine is done with bare shafts?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Nothing wrong with doing that, but just so the general viewer knows, weight differences are probably the least important aspect of arrow tolerances. As long as it doesn't affect spine or straightness, I doubt most could tell the difference with a 10 grain variance shot at hunting distances. In addition, I find the biggest variances in weight to come from inconsistant tips and broadheads, not arrows. Sometimes the best method of assembly is to put the heaviest tips on the lightest shafts in the bunch - if weight consistancy is your goal. However, I don't recommend it. I would put the heaviest tips on the arrows with the stiffest spine. This is likely to end up making an even heavier combination, but I find that keeping dynamic spine consistant is far more important than weight matching.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

I also don't see any hostility in bigbulls response. Perhaps a little frustration, but not hostility.

Most manufacturers build to price points. Their research or experience has told them that they will sell a certain number of arrows at one price and more at a lower price. To reach the lower price they have to make compromises in order to maintain profit margins. They also know that if they reduce the price and the quality too much, they get a bad reputation for quality. Since the purpose of a business is to make money, they strive to find a balance between price & quality. There is room for very few in any industry for a company that makes the best product possible without regard for cost.

Why doesn't Gold Tip make 40" arrows and cut 3" off of each end at the factory? The answer is cost. They have probably already run this cost / benefit analysis and decided that most arrow buyers won't pay for this. In fact most arrow buyers wouldn't know or understand the difference. All they would see is that Gold Tip's cost more and think that they are trying to gouge them. The same goes for other arrow manufacturers. I don't mean to pick on GT.

Until more archers understand the value of straighter arrows and consistent spine, the manufacturers are going to keep on meeting those price points.

Is there a solution? Maybe. Contacting the manufacturer every time you find arrows out of specification may do it, but I doubt it.Many will simply make it more difficult to contact them. The only solution that I know is to buy arrowswith a reputation foractually meet the specifications in the first place. How do we do this? One way is to buy from shops, like Len who check the arrows.

Right now the manufacturer who seems to have the best quality is Carbon Tech. That, unfortunately,is subject to change with the nextshipment of arrows.

Maybe someone else has a better solution.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Straightarrow:

Quote:

---

....weight differences are probably the least important aspect of arrow tolerances. As long as it doesn't affect spine or straightness, I doubt most could tell the difference with a 10 grain variance shot at hunting distances.

---

You can't imagine how many times I tell my customers this. Also, so many of them get caught up in the FOC issue. There as well, "As long as it doesn't affect spine..." too much, standard east coast hunting distances can be flexible.

Of course, if you're going to use heavy vanes, wrapsand lighted nocks on the back of your arrows, using a light tip might not be agood choice.[:-];)

One more thing about cutting of arrows at the nock end - WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO DO IT?? Why can't all the manufacturers make straight arrows from one end to the other? They already make them shorter than their aluminum counterparts.What happens to those who need longer arrows and can't afford to cut from both ends??

I've actually already run into this problem with a few longer DL customers.[:@]

RE: Arrow cutting
 

I don't paper test for spine. I'm fortunate enough to have my spine tester to check for consistency and individual shaft integrity, and also have a Hooter Shooter to play with. Only paper testing I do is a rough shot through paper when initially setting up a rest for the first time.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

I agree with the statement about the arrows weights.

I shoot arrows that weigh 391 from CX along with 430 grfrom GT and there is no noticable difference between how the 2 arrows perform out to 40 yds. Both are spined for the bow and fly true and I've spun all of them on my pine ridge. IfI shoot true the arrows hit the center. If that's the case how can10 grains, or even 2,mean anything.

I'm sure at greater ranges this difference would matter. But not at the rangesI intend to shoot at a deer.

Len,

My thought on why they do not cut the ends before shipping.I think they do not do it incase of any damage that may occure either at the warehouse or at the shop. The thing that surpised me the most though is that GT recommends cutting equal ends off of the shafts when cutting.I wonder if they do that on the ones they ship already fletched?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Agreed. You can also rotate the nock to the in-between fletch position so in essence you could have 12 positions. The 3 position rotation works well for me so far and if you start with a high quality shaft I don't really think much more than that would be needed.

Dave,
I paper tune with the fletching on. Certainly bareshafting would work but I change the distances (right off the paper, 6', 12') and get a pretty good readout on what the arrow is doing. I like the paper tuning because it gives me instant feedback on the arrow but I also group tune and have done the french tuning that you like.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

What exactly about my response seems hostile? I simply answered your question. That's pretty much why it doesn't happen in my experience. It is what it is.

See my "better question comment". It is the manufacturers responsibility to produce what they say they do.

If the pro shop should some how be responsible for what the manufacturer produces and we quit carrying their arrows then everyone needing arrowswould be paying $150+ for a dozen arrows cause we would just quit selling arrows and offer you one premium choice and that's it. Not every one is willing to spend the money for ACC's or better every time they need arrows. How many arrows do you think would get sold?

Then if the manufacturers quit producing out of spec arrows and produced them all to within spec how much do you think those "cheap" arrows would end up costing the end consumer? Add up 4 inches per shaft and multiply that by the millions of shafts produced annually and add up the cost. Are you willing to eat that cost cause they manufacturers aren't going to.

The pro shop isn't in the business of manufacturing arrows. The arrow companies are. If their quality control is not as good as it should be how do you make the connection that the pro shop is responsible?

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Maybe I should step back a second and ask my question differently. You said that you rotate the arrow during testing to see how that affects the arrow. Wouldn't there be an issue with vane contact on the rest? Or, am I missing something in translation? That's whyI asked about the bare shaft.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

Sorry, I use a drop away rest so there is no vane contact regardless of how the arrow is rotated. You could still rotate the arrow with a non-dropaway but you would have to be cognizant of how you rotated it. Such as always keeping a vane up in the whisker biscuit. Just rotate to a different vane up each time.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

One reason I stay out of pro shops. Most are arrogant, obnoxious, and couldn't hit the side of a barn. I don't have a need for them.. There are some exceptions, however far and few in between.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

bruce,

I figured you used a drop away. Also, it dawned on me right before I read your reply that you can rotate the arrow to each position with the vane up. duh on my part.

RE: Arrow cutting
 

LOL