'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
05-17-2007, 07:02 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 4,679
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
Well I wasn't going to open this can of worms myself but since it has already been done, I will add my comments. The comments Len made bothered me as well but I usually keep to myself about this stuff.
I guess my short response to Len's direct question would be define "best shooters". In what aspect?
I have also been fortunate enough to shoot on a regular basis with several people that have national titles in pro classes. The area I live in has people at this elite level in many venues of the sport, including FITA, Field, Indoors, and 3D, some of the guys locally even have current world records in pro classes as well. Being exposed to these folks on a regular basis as well as some fantastic hunters, the kind of guys that kill big bucks consistently and just don't miss animals has shown me that the best "shooters" are the competitive archers. Yes hunting requires great amounts of tuning, and skillhowever the amount of preperation it takes to become proficient at the elite level of hunting in respect to tuning, learninga repeatableshot, adapting to weather/geographical conditions, and the mental aspects so that one can consistently put arrows in a vitals sized group in any unpredictable hunting type condition are not even close to what is needed to compete at the national level in FITA,Field archery, indoor spots, or 3D. Yes, I understand that different form must be used for hunting to be able to adapt to unpredictable and less than ideal conditions, and that you don't typically have the time to gather yourself for the shot like you can in competitive forms of archery, but this still doesn't compare to the preperation that must be done for certain venues of competitive archery and being comptitive at that elite pro level.
To shoot a 1400+ on a fita face, or a 555+ on a field archery course is in my opinion the hardest things to do inarchery because of so many factors. The very few that can do this consistentlyin these two venues are the people that I put on top of the stack of "best shooters". There are very few people that can do this on a consistent basis and the amount of training and tuning it takes is substantially more than what it takes to put a fixed blade broadhead through the lungs of a buck at 50 yards or closer consistently, in a short window of opportunity and less than ideal conditions. Most guys that can perform at this level in field and FITA have been training the right way,and practicing with purpose for 10+ years before they ever get to that level of shooting.
I guess my short response to Len's direct question would be define "best shooters". In what aspect?
I have also been fortunate enough to shoot on a regular basis with several people that have national titles in pro classes. The area I live in has people at this elite level in many venues of the sport, including FITA, Field, Indoors, and 3D, some of the guys locally even have current world records in pro classes as well. Being exposed to these folks on a regular basis as well as some fantastic hunters, the kind of guys that kill big bucks consistently and just don't miss animals has shown me that the best "shooters" are the competitive archers. Yes hunting requires great amounts of tuning, and skillhowever the amount of preperation it takes to become proficient at the elite level of hunting in respect to tuning, learninga repeatableshot, adapting to weather/geographical conditions, and the mental aspects so that one can consistently put arrows in a vitals sized group in any unpredictable hunting type condition are not even close to what is needed to compete at the national level in FITA,Field archery, indoor spots, or 3D. Yes, I understand that different form must be used for hunting to be able to adapt to unpredictable and less than ideal conditions, and that you don't typically have the time to gather yourself for the shot like you can in competitive forms of archery, but this still doesn't compare to the preperation that must be done for certain venues of competitive archery and being comptitive at that elite pro level.
To shoot a 1400+ on a fita face, or a 555+ on a field archery course is in my opinion the hardest things to do inarchery because of so many factors. The very few that can do this consistentlyin these two venues are the people that I put on top of the stack of "best shooters". There are very few people that can do this on a consistent basis and the amount of training and tuning it takes is substantially more than what it takes to put a fixed blade broadhead through the lungs of a buck at 50 yards or closer consistently, in a short window of opportunity and less than ideal conditions. Most guys that can perform at this level in field and FITA have been training the right way,and practicing with purpose for 10+ years before they ever get to that level of shooting.
something in this thread is bothering me. seems to be a little bit of prejudice against target shooters among some who don't really do it. someone (len) even said something like 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'.this seems to be a point mosthave agreed on in this thread. not sure why this is bothering me - except i don't get it. i'm lucky enough to shoot with or just in front of or behind one of the best in the world sometimes - because he's not to far away and we have mutual friends - and he can bust nocks off arrows at will from 50 yards - at will. he wins pretty much every asa known distance shoot, and 2 of the national shoots from pro class this year. len may be able to beat him shooting a right handed bow left handed - maybe - but that's it, and w/ 5 minutes practice - i doubt it. there isn't one person here who can touch him - at anything, anywhere, or in any conditions, or footing,that has to do w/ shooting arrows.i doubt there's one person herewho could beat hisgirlfriend at any form of archery either. if you could, you'd be doing it.
also, want to learn about bows? tuning, shimming, what bow companies bows need to have the axles replaced straight from the factory, packing limb pockets... and lots of stuff not many have even heard of - find a good spot shooter or 3d shooter. i'm lucky. i get to see these guys bows and talk to them. i get to find out what they do, and how they do it.
the reality is - these guys are better and know much more than just about any hunt only folks you'll ever find, more about tuning and form, and they have access to folks many of us have never heard of - folks who make a living having the best shooters in the world visit for coaching.
any way - its a myth - hunters are no where near the best shots, shooters, or tuners around - and its not even close. don't fool yourselves.
also, want to learn about bows? tuning, shimming, what bow companies bows need to have the axles replaced straight from the factory, packing limb pockets... and lots of stuff not many have even heard of - find a good spot shooter or 3d shooter. i'm lucky. i get to see these guys bows and talk to them. i get to find out what they do, and how they do it.
the reality is - these guys are better and know much more than just about any hunt only folks you'll ever find, more about tuning and form, and they have access to folks many of us have never heard of - folks who make a living having the best shooters in the world visit for coaching.
any way - its a myth - hunters are no where near the best shots, shooters, or tuners around - and its not even close. don't fool yourselves.
05-17-2007, 09:30 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
ORIGINAL: AllenRead
How do we separate them? There are three national level shooters at my club and all three are also hunters. So are they a better shot on the line or in the woods? I don't think that it matters and it's certainly not something that we can generalize about.
Mosttournement shooters began as bowhunters who wanted to shoot better.As they get into competition, they learn tips and tricks that make them better tuners, thoughnot as good as guys like Len who work on bows full time. They tend to be people who will put in a lot of time & effortto learn as much about archery as possible. Can they make good shots from a treestand? Yes, all of them that I know are set up with the right equipment and understand the form differences required to make a good shot when they'recold andstiff and shooting from an awkward position. And none of them use a 3' stabilizer in a tree stand!
There are plenty of hunters, like the people on this forum, who put in just as much time and effort learning all they can about archery, but don't compete. Does this make them less a shooter? Absolutely not!Could they compete in tournementsand expect to win? Probably yes if they were willing to change theirform a bit and get equipment suited for the venue. (that 3 foot stabilizer is only one part of it
)
This is primarily a hunting forum. While I am primarily a tournement shooter (definitely not national level) I also hunt, which is one reason that I come here. There is some bias against tournement shooting here, but it's not a big deal.
So who is the better shot? It can only be answered on a case by case basis. Some people can shoot better than other people. Whether they are primarily hunters or target shooters is irrelevent.
How do we separate them? There are three national level shooters at my club and all three are also hunters. So are they a better shot on the line or in the woods? I don't think that it matters and it's certainly not something that we can generalize about.
Mosttournement shooters began as bowhunters who wanted to shoot better.As they get into competition, they learn tips and tricks that make them better tuners, thoughnot as good as guys like Len who work on bows full time. They tend to be people who will put in a lot of time & effortto learn as much about archery as possible. Can they make good shots from a treestand? Yes, all of them that I know are set up with the right equipment and understand the form differences required to make a good shot when they'recold andstiff and shooting from an awkward position. And none of them use a 3' stabilizer in a tree stand!
There are plenty of hunters, like the people on this forum, who put in just as much time and effort learning all they can about archery, but don't compete. Does this make them less a shooter? Absolutely not!Could they compete in tournementsand expect to win? Probably yes if they were willing to change theirform a bit and get equipment suited for the venue. (that 3 foot stabilizer is only one part of it
)This is primarily a hunting forum. While I am primarily a tournement shooter (definitely not national level) I also hunt, which is one reason that I come here. There is some bias against tournement shooting here, but it's not a big deal.
So who is the better shot? It can only be answered on a case by case basis. Some people can shoot better than other people. Whether they are primarily hunters or target shooters is irrelevent.
If you would have said this to me in the other thread I would've agreed with most of it.
The one thing that does amaze me is the bias on both sides. Archery has become like the difference between owning a Harley or any other bike. Both sides have bias towards each other yet both sides love to ride motorcycles.
05-17-2007, 10:33 AM
#13
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 312
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
ORIGINAL: davepjr71
Allen,
If you would have said this to me in the other thread I would've agreed with most of it.
The one thing that does amaze me is the bias on both sides. Archery has become like the difference between owning a Harley or any other bike. Both sides have bias towards each other yet both sides love to ride motorcycles.
Allen,
If you would have said this to me in the other thread I would've agreed with most of it.
The one thing that does amaze me is the bias on both sides. Archery has become like the difference between owning a Harley or any other bike. Both sides have bias towards each other yet both sides love to ride motorcycles.
I've knownthree guys that made it to that level. It's not fun. They are driven to practice thousands of arrows a month. They hone their tournement mental games to the level where they are more at home on the line than anywhere else. Their focus is intense and unbreakable.
Someone who shoots for fun is not going to be able to beat these guys in any format. To get into the top 5 is grueling and a business, not a hobby.
There is no one who shoots for fun that can beat these guys, ever. He may have the ability to do it if he had the same level of obsession and drive, but not until then.
My commentson this treadare about the average to above averagetournement shooter and the averageto above average bowhunter. There are plenty of good shooters and mechanics on both sides and often they are the same person.
I agree with you about the bias. But I find it more with archers who are strictly bowhunters than among tournement shooters. This is probably because the large majority of tournement shooters are also bowhunters.
It doesn't bother me at all.
Allen
05-17-2007, 10:40 AM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: Cheasapeke and Delaware Bay Region
Posts: 10,485
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
Who is the better shooter?
Well, to determine that I think it has to be done on a case by case basis.I have been in Len's shop and seen him and others shootat and hit a piece of string hanging freely from the ceiling at probally 18 yards every time they shoot at it. And thats without the 3 foot stablizer.You put a competitive shooter on that same line will he do the same?Proablly not,but put enough competitive shooters on that line and someone eventually will,soI saythe hunter wins that one. Now turn the table and put that hunter on a line and shoot a ring at say 50/60 yrds, will he hit it like the competive shooter.Proablly not,but you put enough hunters on that line and eventually one will, so I saycompetitive shooter wins that one leaving us still to ponder who is the better shot.
Well, to determine that I think it has to be done on a case by case basis.I have been in Len's shop and seen him and others shootat and hit a piece of string hanging freely from the ceiling at probally 18 yards every time they shoot at it. And thats without the 3 foot stablizer.You put a competitive shooter on that same line will he do the same?Proablly not,but put enough competitive shooters on that line and someone eventually will,soI saythe hunter wins that one. Now turn the table and put that hunter on a line and shoot a ring at say 50/60 yrds, will he hit it like the competive shooter.Proablly not,but you put enough hunters on that line and eventually one will, so I saycompetitive shooter wins that one leaving us still to ponder who is the better shot.
05-17-2007, 10:46 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
In general , I'm sure the troop's want a hunter on the gun protecting them . You know the drill Sargent is look'n for those Alabama boys for shooters , if thats your question , if strictly archery , most know fixed broadhead equipped arrows are finicky compared to target tipped arrows , but does that make hunters better , I don't think so . Some hunters pick up their bow only during hunting season , many target guys are year rounders , so on any given day they are in form . Many target guys are hunters so its kind of a vague question . Are we talking strikingly hunters , against strictly target shooters , archery only ?
05-17-2007, 01:53 PM
#16
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 209
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
I believe that each can be good at what they do, not necessarily one better than the other; after saying that, I saw a video in Open Wave where they have this Olympic archery medal guy and then the video shows him hunting from a stand and he just completely misses the deer...darn I could not believe it!
Even when similar, each requires a different set of shooting skills, and a different mental approach as well. It’s not the same to shoot an inanimate target that shooting a live animal...
My 0.02
Even when similar, each requires a different set of shooting skills, and a different mental approach as well. It’s not the same to shoot an inanimate target that shooting a live animal...
My 0.02
05-17-2007, 01:59 PM
#17
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
This is a pretty cool post from Arthur P that deals more with the "fun, not fun" aspect of competition shooting and why a lot of excellent shooters stay away from competition. I'm not saying compitition is all that bad, or who is a better shot cause I really don't care. Sometimes I'drather visit the club leading up to or after a competition and shoot the course at my leisure with my son.
As to people not shooting, you want toknow a big reason why so many bowhunters don't enjoy shooting? I'll tell you. It's a pretty interesting look at how people don't learn from their mistakes and allow history repeat itself.
Back in the 30'speople got tired of shooting the old Kings Round and came up with a target game for bowhunters called field archery. It got really popular because it was fun to shoot. Along came the pure target shooters saying they wanted to play too. So, bowhunters opened the door, in come the target shooters and they began calling themselves freestylers and eventually took over. Then they set things up the way THEY liked it and most all the bowhunters quit. It wasn't fun any more with all the nitpicky rules and cutthroat competition.
So, in the 80's we developed a new bowhunters' game called 3D. It got really popular because it was fun. Then along came the freestylers who said they wanted to play too. Bowhunters opened the door, in came the freestylers, who changed their name to open class and they eventually took over. Then they set things up the way THEY liked it and most all the bowhunters quit. It wasn't fun any more, with all the nitpicky rules and cutthroat competition.
3D has left such a sour taste in the mouths of so many bowhunters that you can't hardly drag them to an archery range any more. A huge number of archery clubs have lost their ranges and had to close because of lack of participation. Even for those who want to shoot, there's often no place to shoot, so no practice.
When was the last time you went to a 3D shoot and actually heard people all around the range joking, laughing and having a ball?To the contrary. It's like you're at a morgue, with everyone acting half afraid to evenbreathe lest they disturb someone on the shooting stake.
If you want to see what it's like to have fun at a shoot, you've got to go to an all-traditional event. Whole different atmosphere, completely different mindset. You better believe they compete but they know how to have fun while doing it.
If you want to get people involved in shooting again, then you've got to keep the serious target shooters on a tight leash. Let them know this is for bowhunters and they're welcome to join in, but they can leave their tournament crap at home, because it's not wanted.
Back in the 30'speople got tired of shooting the old Kings Round and came up with a target game for bowhunters called field archery. It got really popular because it was fun to shoot. Along came the pure target shooters saying they wanted to play too. So, bowhunters opened the door, in come the target shooters and they began calling themselves freestylers and eventually took over. Then they set things up the way THEY liked it and most all the bowhunters quit. It wasn't fun any more with all the nitpicky rules and cutthroat competition.
So, in the 80's we developed a new bowhunters' game called 3D. It got really popular because it was fun. Then along came the freestylers who said they wanted to play too. Bowhunters opened the door, in came the freestylers, who changed their name to open class and they eventually took over. Then they set things up the way THEY liked it and most all the bowhunters quit. It wasn't fun any more, with all the nitpicky rules and cutthroat competition.
3D has left such a sour taste in the mouths of so many bowhunters that you can't hardly drag them to an archery range any more. A huge number of archery clubs have lost their ranges and had to close because of lack of participation. Even for those who want to shoot, there's often no place to shoot, so no practice.
When was the last time you went to a 3D shoot and actually heard people all around the range joking, laughing and having a ball?To the contrary. It's like you're at a morgue, with everyone acting half afraid to evenbreathe lest they disturb someone on the shooting stake.
If you want to see what it's like to have fun at a shoot, you've got to go to an all-traditional event. Whole different atmosphere, completely different mindset. You better believe they compete but they know how to have fun while doing it.
If you want to get people involved in shooting again, then you've got to keep the serious target shooters on a tight leash. Let them know this is for bowhunters and they're welcome to join in, but they can leave their tournament crap at home, because it's not wanted.
05-17-2007, 02:32 PM
#18
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 209
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid271548047/bclid452310737/bctid527422381
Here it is, I was wrong, I saw it on Open Air Video, Mosnter Bucks IV..about 12minutes into the video...
Here it is, I was wrong, I saw it on Open Air Video, Mosnter Bucks IV..about 12minutes into the video...
05-17-2007, 10:04 PM
#19
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Treasure Lake DuBois,Pa.
Posts: 1,571
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
WOW!! What a question.
I think the only way to answer this is to make the playing field even.
Identically equipped shooters. Same bow,same arrows, same target,distance ,etc. Then go to the woods and repeat.
I really don't know if there is a clear cut winner here because the desired end result is so different.
It does make for a great thread.
I think the only way to answer this is to make the playing field even.
Identically equipped shooters. Same bow,same arrows, same target,distance ,etc. Then go to the woods and repeat.
I really don't know if there is a clear cut winner here because the desired end result is so different.
It does make for a great thread.
05-18-2007, 04:58 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
Posts: 2,188
RE: 'the best shooters in the world - hunters'???
Agreed with the even playing field comment and I'll add to that.
One factor that is seriously overlooked by the guys backing the Target Shooters is the all mighty dollar.
I'll bet serious money that there are guys/women out there that if handed the high end type of equipment the top shooters use would clean house.
I think we all tendto forget that when many of us started out we had very cheap rigs. And to be good with those rigs we practiced hour upon hour. Some people just can not afford the type of equipment needed to compete. So, they shoot within the limits of the equipment they have.
Here's an example: A kid gets acheap bow for Christmaswith a glueon Flipper rest and steel pin sights. He goes out and shoots almost every day. Within a year he can consistently hit a 1/4" piece of paper at 35 yds. (He rarely shoots past that distance due to the length of the place he shoots). A few years later he shoots out to 45 and on a bet he shoots the end of a cigarette at 45 yds off his knees 2 times in a row. If that same kid was given a top shooting rig, opportunityandmoney to enter events he'd probably clean house in any competition.
If you do not think so it's your own arrogance and belief that only the best compete.
And as for the form required. I'll use golf as an example. Look at Jim Furyk's or Jim Brown's swing some time and tell me that if you saw him at a local golf course you'd thinkthey could win with the swings they have?
Archery like everything anymore has developed an elitist attitude that only the best in the world compete and there just couldn't be anyone better than the people that compete.
One factor that is seriously overlooked by the guys backing the Target Shooters is the all mighty dollar.
I'll bet serious money that there are guys/women out there that if handed the high end type of equipment the top shooters use would clean house.
I think we all tendto forget that when many of us started out we had very cheap rigs. And to be good with those rigs we practiced hour upon hour. Some people just can not afford the type of equipment needed to compete. So, they shoot within the limits of the equipment they have.
Here's an example: A kid gets acheap bow for Christmaswith a glueon Flipper rest and steel pin sights. He goes out and shoots almost every day. Within a year he can consistently hit a 1/4" piece of paper at 35 yds. (He rarely shoots past that distance due to the length of the place he shoots). A few years later he shoots out to 45 and on a bet he shoots the end of a cigarette at 45 yds off his knees 2 times in a row. If that same kid was given a top shooting rig, opportunityandmoney to enter events he'd probably clean house in any competition.
If you do not think so it's your own arrogance and belief that only the best compete.
And as for the form required. I'll use golf as an example. Look at Jim Furyk's or Jim Brown's swing some time and tell me that if you saw him at a local golf course you'd thinkthey could win with the swings they have?
Archery like everything anymore has developed an elitist attitude that only the best in the world compete and there just couldn't be anyone better than the people that compete.