Arrow Squaring?
 

I asked this question in the bowhunting forum and no one has responded. Sooo, I'll ask here. What was used for this task before the G5 ASD tool? Just curious if someone has an old school way that is just as effective.

Thanks, LT

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

With aluminum arrows you heated the glue up and moved the insert to square it up with the arrow. Also, with the slower bows it wasn't as big of an issue as the burners we have now. My aluminums hit the same field tip or broadhead. With carbons you can use the little plastic washers.

Today's bows seem to require a much higher degree of tuning at all aspects due to the increased speed and much shorter ATA. The bow I have now is probably close to 100 fps faster than my Whitetail legend I bought in 1990.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Scroll down to post # 16 by GreggWNY

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=472748

I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like it may be easier to use than the G5 ASD.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

To be honest, I don't like that rig at all. How can you get any consistency? What happens when the wood swells in the hot summers?

Go buy an ASD...solid metal construction. You won't be dissapointed.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I posted this response on Archery talk but figured I'd post it here to.

Isn't the main purpose of the G5 to square the end of the insert so that the broadhead/field tip square with the shaft?

Obviously, if you are using HIT inserts youneed tosquare the end of the shaft. But for all other arrows it really does not matter if the end of the shaft is not square by the small amount.The insert will square with the inside of the shaft, not the end. however, the broadhead/field tip needs to be square with the shaft.

None ofhome madetools address this issue.The bigger problem I see is that they can possibly fray the carbon at the end ruining the shaft if not done properly. With the G5 that is not an issue.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

You are right on Dave. Also, if you purchase pre-fletched arrows, you can still use the ASD tool to square off the butt end of the arrow where the nock attaches. That is if the nock is wobbling on the arrow roller.

That wooden device could only be used if you removed the fletchings.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Use you ASD on the nock end, the insert end and the insert for a truly perfect arrow. It works well enough that I consider it an important tool.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

There is a lot more to carbonarrows than what most people think. From manufacturer to manufacturer there will be differences and some of them will be glaring. A manufacturer makinggood productsin one year can easilymake lesser quality products the next year.

You also have to consider the 'formed'ID of the arrowin conjunction with the machined insert. Tolerances, shank size of the tip, quality of the thread interface, and perpendicularity of certain components also must be viewed and considered.

All in all, each arrow 'system' must be evaluated thoroughly.I'd be glad tocover a lot of this in my seminar for those on here who are attending.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

This isn't magic or hidden science and doesn't require a PhD to understand.

Manufacturers now make inserts specific for their shafts. It's not like the old days where the insert could be wiggled around in the shaft and you had to make sure it was square while the glue set.

If you square the end of the insert more than likely the tip/broadhead will be square with the shaft. If not then the tip/broadhead is bent. Tolerances have been greatly decreased and inserts come sized for the specific shaft. Carbon manufactures usually have the ID the same for a line of shafts and therefore only have to have 1 insert. Aluminum manufactures make inserts that have to be gently forced into the shaft.

If you buy the inserts from the manufacturer there is nothing to consider. I really don't know how we shot arrows all those years without having the tolerances that are used today.;)

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Dave:

Many have been surprised at what I've shown them concerning tolerances and other issueson carbon arrows. Some visit this and other forums and others provide a source for learning to millions in the industry.

If you ever get the chance to stop by my shop, I'd gladly share some of myinsight with you.

Good shooting and good hunting,

Len

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Sometimes you just gotta let the professionals be professionals and go hunting.

While it's nice to tweak every little piece of your equipment, some things are better left up to the manufacturer. Remember, he gets paid to monkey around, you don't.

0.001" tolerance plus or minus should not be your focus. Focus on the major items and you will drastically increase your chances of taking any animal.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Len,

No disrespect but I believe if a person looks hard enoughand has the resources it's possible to find problems.

I believe that if you buy quality arrows you will get a quality product. I'm sure you can find a few that are lemons. It's impossible to have perfection in any facet of life. For the average person they do not have the resources to sift thru arrows to find the perfect ones and theflawed ones.

For the average archer the equipment is far superior than what I started off with 24 years ago. Even the ones you would show me are more than likely better then what I started off with. If a person is patient and watches what they are doing you can mimimize this problem.

Tools like the ASD square the insert to the shaft. Therefore, even if the insert is not properly seated the broadhead will seat properly to the shaft.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I find the middle of the string. I have an arrow with a bubble level on it and use another level on the string.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Dave:

You made this statement in your original post concerning this thread:

Quote:

---

.....with the slower bows it wasn't as big of an issue as the burners we have now. My aluminums hit the same field tip or broadhead. With carbons you can use the little plastic washers.

Today's bows seem to require a much higher degree of tuning at all aspects due to the increased speed and much shorter ATA. The bow I have now is probably close to 100 fps faster than my Whitetail legend I bought in 1990.

---

I agree with you totally on the issue of "Today's bows seem to require a much higher degree of tuning at all aspects due to the increased speed and shorter ATA."

What I have todisagree with you about is this statement

Quote:

---

I believe that if you buy quality arrows you will get a quality product.

---

, and this statement

Quote:

---

For the average person they do not have the resources to sift thru arrows to find the perfect ones and theflawed ones.

---

, and this statement

Quote:

---

Tools like the ASD square the insert to the shaft. Therefore, even if the insert is not properly seated the broadhead will seat properly to the shaft.

---

I also have to disagree with MDBUCKHUNTER on his post


Now let me address these issues one by one.
1. You may spend good money on 'quality' arrows but I think you, like many others, are basing quality on manufacturers' advertising. I can assure you that we've seen .001 arrows that measured between .030 to .050. That's 30 to 50 times worse than what was advertised. Then you have the issue of spine consistency that can be tested with a very expensive spine testing machine (which we have) or various other 'no tools needed' methods. And keep in mind that spine consistency does not always directly relate to advertised spine.
2. The "average" shooter can surely sift through his arrows to determine which is better than the other. One way is through broadhead grouping/tuning and there are several other ways that do not require special tools.
3. The ASD tool will surely square the insert to the 'end' of the shaft, but will prove useless if the shaft is not straight.
4. It's up to PROfessional people like myself who have dedication to their face-to-face everyday customers to evaluate/test and report findings that are at times contrary to advertised specs. This is in the true interest of the end user - my customers (case in point). Manufacturers come and go, but the true PRO Shop is something that must always strive to gain and maintain the customers' respect and dedication. "Honesty is necessary to long-term relationships".
5. The manufacturer gets paid by retail outlets and rarely has a one-on-one relationship with the end user. The retail outlet takes your money and has the responsibility to make sure you are properly serviced. The more intimate you the customer are with the retail outlet, the more honest and service-based that outlet must be. If your service agent is just passing on goods with no desire/method of whether or not you're getting the best goods for your money, then maybeit's time tofind another service agent/outlet. In other words, is the customer just a number or a person with a name and a need?
6. Focusing on major items will get you in the 'ballpark' while focusing on the minor items as well will win you the 'championship'.
7. IfI'mpaying for .001 and test to find I'mgetting .050, I've really got a problem with that and won't pass this product onto my customers. If others would have the same capability/principles, the manufacturers of those overly advertised products might get the message and start providing us all with what is actually advertised.

In closing, it's very easy to make an aloof statement about quality as long as others don't question that quality and blindly accept it. Yes, I may look negatively on many things, and I've been accussed of that before; but, with the knowledge and tools that I have, if I don't look out for my customers, my customers might notstay my customers.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Len,

My statement was far from aloof. It's based on years of shooting andknowing for myselfthat for most shooters you do not need .001 straightness to be a good shot or shoot accurately.

1. I'm sure you have seen an arrow like that. the question is how many dozens did you sift through to find that arrow? I'm sure that the higher quality shafts have much better tolerances than a cheaper one. That is not based on any advertising but common sense and my own intelligence.

2. The average person does not have the resources to throw out arrows if they do not meet .001 straightness. At $10+ a pop I'm not going to throw an arrow away because of that. If the arrow still shoots the X ring at 50 yds it's straight enough to shoot a deer at 20. I don't know howI used to shoot Gamegetters accurately at 50 yds based on your criteria of perfection.I think most of my arrows were bent a little. I used my handsand eyes to straighten them and could out shoot many guys with XX78'sstaightened with a machine.

This thread was I belive started for squaring for hunters, not target shooters.

3. The ASD squares the ferrule of the broadhead with the shaft. Straightness is relative.I'd hazard a wager that the average shooter will not notice the difference between a .001 and a .009 arrow in flight. If that were the case every arrow would be .001. At least if the ferrule is in line with the shaft the shaft and broadhead will be in tune with each other and the tip will not steer the arrow.

4. It's just as important for the average Joe to tell a manufacturer if there is something wrong with a product. I think manufacturers are more inclined in today's market to listen to individuals then in the past. Especially with the boon in products and small market manufacturers

5. A Pro shop serves a purpose. However, if a person wants to figure things out for themselves through their own testing and experience than that benefits the industry as well. A pro shop also has the responsibility to their customers to listen to what the customer wants and discuss the options.A good pro shop does not tell the customer what manufacturer of bow, rest, or arrrow they should use.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I can tell you right now I don't have the money to be testing and throwing away arrows because they are not 0.001" tolerance like it says on the package. I am a hunter and our tolerances are a bit different from that of Target Shooters.

I can also tell you that 99% of archery shops (common sense approximation)probably don't test every single arrow coming into their shop and out to their customers for tolerance, spine, etc. If so, then that shop probably has an overhead rate so high that itraises the prices of all items for sale in that shop to make up for hiring extra employees, to sit there all day and test arrows.

Archery is not brain surgery...so lets not make it that way.

I will tell any archer that form is the number one priority. You can have the best equipment in the world but that doesn't mean anything if you can't properly use it. Also, for us who can't afford to have expensive arrows and can't afford to purchase all the equipment thatone must have to test our arrows, proper form can help out arrows, bows, broad heads, etc. that aren't at the proper tolerance level.

I also don't agree that the manufacturer rarely have a one-on-one relationship with the end user. I will use Mathews as an example because they are a great company in my opinion. Any questions I have had with my bow and it's interaction with other products or if I am seeking tuning strategy information, I have talked to Mathews directly. Not their customer service people or some pro shop junky, but their engineers and technicians. How? Telephone and the forums on the Mathews Webpage. I have also done the same with Fuse and Easton.

No longer are manufacturers channeling 100% through the pro shops like they did in the early 90's. It is smart business to hire technicians to answer web posts rather than have everyone sendingequipment in all the time.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Dave:

Your idea of what I am and what I promote is way off-base. You should talk to people who know me or stop by the shop to get a better idea of howmy business isreally conducted. In fact, with the BowTech truck and Pat Dinan (BowTech Shooter) stopping by next Friday afternoon, it might be a good time to visit.

First, I did not call your statement aloof. I was referring to some manufacturers being able to advertise tight tolerances and getting away with it with little to no challenge. You're absolutely right about most shooters not needing .001 and I've never said otherwise. You appear to have a perception that I'm more into target/tournament shooting. That is as far from the truth about me as possible.

Let me address your statements and hopefully straighten this out:

Quote:

---

1......the question is how many dozens did you sift through to find that arrow?

---

I don't let anyone sift through arrows to pick out the best ones and I don't do it personnally. If you ask any of my present or past employees, they'll verify that I will grab a random dozen new shafts for myself and then proceed to build them. In fact, I just grabbed a dozen discontinued Beman Carbon Matrix shafts for myself and built them. Since they were the last dozen I had and were not very popular (but good shafts), it made sense for me to use them rather than build from new stock. Out of the dozen I got 10 that are broadhead quality and the other2 will be for practice. BTW, I practice with a mixed batch of arrows. Ask anyone who's seen me shoot at the shop.

Quote:

---

I'm sure that the higher quality shafts have much better tolerances than a cheaper one.

---

That is a misconception if you're meaning that higher quality relates to higher price. I've got some $60/dz shafts that outperform $120/dz shafts. The ones that I previously mentioned that were supposed to be .001 and went out to .050 were about $120/dz for raw shafts. When we found the first ones that were pretty bad, we decided to check the entire lot of about 200 shafts. Of those, 47% were well beyond the advertised .001 tolerance. We sent them back and even the manufacturer said they were horrible. The next lot they sent were just the same and the third lot achieved 14% rejection rate. We don't buy those arrows anymore. From year to year I'll tell my customers, who are 99% hunters, which company has the better overall yield.

Quote:

---

2. The average person does not have the resources to throw out arrows if they do not meet .001 straightness.

---

In my shop wesell mostly .006arrows andtry to make sure that the yields are the best available. We have to carrysome of the 'name brand' because some customers demand them; but, whenever possible, we steer them to the 'better buys'.

Quote:

---

At $10+ a pop I'm not going to throw an arrow away because of that.

---

We suggest to our customers that they cull the worst of a dozen and use them for practice. After all, that's what I do.

Quote:

---

I don't know howI used to shoot Gamegetters accurately at 50 yds based on your criteria of perfection.

---

First, it appears that you're comparing aluminum arrows to carbon arrows. On the whole, aluminum arrows are consistently straight whereas many carbon arrows vary in straightness and spine consistencyconsiderably.

As far as my idea of perfection, it's making sure you put your best arrow behind a fixed broadhead, along with a well-tuned hunting rig, with the form necessary to make those shots that challenge the best shooters in the world - hunters.

Quote:

---

This thread was I belive started for squaring for hunters, not target shooters.

---

Man, you're so far off base on your perception of me and my customer base. Where/how did you ever get this impression?

Quote:

---

At least if the ferrule is in line with the shaft the shaft and broadhead will be in tune with each other and the tip will not steer the arrow.

---

Onlyif the arrow is straight over it's entire length.Note, the ACDis only relative to a short section of the arrow. Any variations within or outside the fulcrum points can cause problems.

Quote:

---

4. It's just as important for the average Joe to tell a manufacturer if there is something wrong with a product. I think manufacturers are more inclined in today's market to listen to individuals then in the past. Especially with the boon in products and small market manufacturers

---

I totally concur. Problem is that most "average Joe" archers accept what they get and are reluctant to complain.

Quote:

---

5. A Pro shop serves a purpose. However, if a person wants to figure things out for themselves through their own testing and experience than that benefits the industry as well. A pro shop also has the responsibility to their customers to listen to what the customer wants and discuss the options.

---

No problem here. I'm always asking my customers for feedback on products.

Quote:

---

A good pro shop does not tell the customer what manufacturer of bow, rest, or arrrow they should use.

---

Again, you're really off-base on your perception of me. My customers complain that I won't tell them which product to use. I present all the positives and negatives of products and tell them to make an educated decision based on their needs/desires. I think that pushing products on customers is unprofessional. I think that educating customers is professional.

Finally, the invitation is open for you to visit my shop and see for yourself what goes on. Just sit back and listen as I wait on customers.;)

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Len,

I've based my statements on being at your shop a few times. Bought a bow off of you when I first moved here. I've also stood around and listened to you talk to customers.If I got the wrong impression then I did. I'll leave it at that.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

lol

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

The only thing Len has ever pushed on to customers is that dam beef jerky, I love that stuff. I have learned alot from Len over the years of me buggin the crap outta him. He dont lie.

P.S. Len you need to order more meat and cheese sticks, I hate the last one, BURP!!!

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Dave:

Many get an impression of me when they don't want to hear what I've got to say. I challenge a lot of customerswith logic and fact and make nobones about it.

In many cases customers have their minds set on certain things when they walk into my shop. A long time ago I may have tried too hard to 'educate' them against their will. Age has tempered this in my character and I now let more things pass than to cause friction.

The engineering community from which I came thrived on fact over personal feelings. Guilty of telling the truth as I see it - sometimes. Guilty of trying to make customers the best that they can be - always.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember you. If I offended you, my apology. That was then and this is now. If I can help you or further explain this arrow dilemma, you're still invited to stop by the shop.

Len

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Didn't even know about this site..... but I found some MD people here! COOL....


I read some of this post, not all of it. The part talking about hunting and not target shooting?Iused to hear that often on the3-d range. I'd normally keep my opinion to myself,to each their own..... I'm all forlive and let live, everyone entitled to opinions etc. etc.but......think about this, what's more importantto you the12 ring on afur or a 12 ring on foam? I used to shoot professionally andall of my colleagues were the same. The hunting arrows and bows were often just as accurate as our target bows.

Now that I see my friendLen here, I'll have to hang out more often.I've traveled to 20 different statesshooting bows for the last 10 years, and a bow manufacturing plant.While outta state, I've visited many Pro Shops....we are luckier than heck to have a shop like Lens in thestate! You willbe lucky to find anyone morepassionate and knowledgable about archery thanLen. Len's personality, however you feel about it,if approached open minded, you'll find he brings out thebest in you. Both archery and personal.
Everyone won't agree all the times and that's cool!Stay passionate andopen minded and we all will progress in archery and bowhunting...

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Your opinion is justthat, yours.I have been in Len's placemany times, bought I beleive 4 bows and numorious arrows and other suppliesfrom himand even hunted with him for 2 years and I certainly don't share your opinion of him or his sales practice's. Maybe you ought to take him up on his invitation and stop by without introducing yourself and form another opinion. I'm sure it won't be the same one you harbour now. ;)

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Rickmur,

I do not beleive I actually made any sort of comment about Len directly. I do not believe I gave my opinion at all. I also do not believe I said anything negative about Len. I just said that I've been in there lately and I'll leave it at that.

I've been in his place twice earlier this year.;)
Also, wouldn't he know whatI look like since my picture is my Avatar?


I feel that it is disrespectful to turn this thread into a discussion about someone's livelyhood and I never once made a negative comment about Len. It is up to each individual to form their own opinion and to start bantering like this does not help. Therefore, could we please drop this and stick to the thread? Thank you.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Ches,

Welcome to the forum. I was amazed at how many Maryland people there are on here too.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Hello Bart,

Welcome to HNI, there are a lot of MD folks here. Len is here quite often in "living color". Hopefully, you will hang around too. With your experience, there's a lot we can learn from you too!

I think that you stated the case very well and Ican'tadd much to what you said.

Allen

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Um, what was used for arrow squaring before the G5 ASD tool? I do believe that was my original question. Not whether or not Len treats his customers right and knows his *&^%. I believe from past posts I can trust you Len for your knowledge. That is not the question at hand here. And also this question was not directed toward aluminum arrows as I use carbon only. Particularly Easton Axis with HIT inserts. So I really would only be squaring the carbon itself and not the inserts.

Back to regularly scheduled program. LOL

Thanks, LT

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

davepjr71
Whatever:eek:.


This topic is returned to the original poster by me at least. Sorry to have been inticed to reply. Won't happen again;)

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

i have a stone that came w/ some easton axis arrows. when i don't feel like squaring both ends of the shafts w/ my g5, i use that tool. i put it on the floor and do the arrow like i was starting a fire. even w/ a real good blade and arrow saw, there are burrs on the cut end of the shaft i want off. the insert and nock will never sit squarely on and in the shaft when there are burrs on the tips of the shaft. squaring only the inserts won't help at all w/ this. also, if you'll notice, most inserts do have just a small amount of play, and having a squared shaft helps them seat properly. if you're not cutting your own arrows - and you're not at lens shop or another real good one- you're getting shafts that were most likely cut and had the inserts glued in w/out even having any of the burrs removed.

no matter which 'grade' arrows i've bought, i've gotten more w/ good flight when i've taken time to take care of the ends properly.

people, please be careful. there are quite a few newer fellows thatdon't really know much, but pass off likethey do. this kind of thing bothers me because some folks who know about as much, or less, don't know the difference between someone who acts like they know what they're talking about - and someone who really does.this happens every few months. folks thinking they can bs their way into some sort of stripe earning - for some unknown reason. some of the things i've read in this post are supreme evidence for what i'm talking about. my best advice would be to read len's posts, and if jeffb just happens to chime in for his every 6 month visit- listen to him too.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Not many worried about it too much before the ACD tool. The reasons for not addressing the issue could be many. Take for instance the fact that power and speed was not as great, mechanical became very popular for a period of time which negated the need, and maybe there were too many other things to worry about.;) I used to use several 'gimmicks'. It's a shame I didn't take the subject more seriously and design something. Missed the boat again.[:@]

Montec, who was trying to promote a new broadhead, developed several tools for sharpening and came out with the ACD. It works well and more and more saw that they could get just a little better BH flight by using it.

The problem with a lot of carbon arrows, as I've stated, is that they are not alwaysstraight. You can trim/square that last few inches of arrow all you want; but, if the arrow has a little bend, especially close to either the nock end or the tip end, then you've still got a problem.[:@] It may be less severe by squaring the tip, but don't expect miracles.

Again, always spin your arrows with a good spinning device. This should be done especially with fixed BHs installed. Look at both the tip of the BH and the nock end. Sometimes it's best to put a piece of white paper behind the object being viewed. Having this sort of background will aid in seeing any variances.

Hope this helps and answers your questions.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I've read enough articles from reputable people that the ASD works. That's why I said about using it.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Len,
Your variation in color choicescan bepainful for a colorblind guy like me.:D:D
Absolutely. I used my ASD to square the ends of my shafts, and even to smooth the ends of my inserts, but still had some wobble in my Montecs. The $30.00 for a decent arrow spinner was perhaps the best money I've spent since I bought my bow.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I do something like this. I take 3x5 index cards,with blue lines on them, and put one under each end of the arrow when I spin it. I line up the shaft with one of the lines and then spin and that gives me a very good visual concerning the straightness on each end.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

bruce,

That's a good idea. the lines would make a great reference.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Wait a minute... shouldn't it NOT bother you if you were colorblind? [8D][8D]

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Greg,
You would think so, but when the font is in light green, yellow or some other bright lighter color, it's extremely hard to see the defining edges of the letters, and that makes it hard for me to read. Yellow is the worst by far.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

In the "old days" most would just spin the arrow against the cutting blade in an arrow saw. I've seen some horible results from lack of skill in doing that, but some could do a great job.

For the guys that couldn't do a good job on the saw, the wood block tool would work. Sometimes instead of a hole the size of an arrow, they would have a V shaped notch that was used just like the ASD.

Today, we have the ASD and it is abetter tool.A bit expensive any more, but still worth it.

Allen

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

I took a look at the tool and wonder if it is really necessary. Personally, I won't be rushing out to buy it.

Shaft and Component Tolerances are a sperate issue.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

You two guys are way wrong in your assessment of who and what Len is about.He is a "HUNTER"not a competition shooter.Although he could probably hold his own with most,both left and right handed.As stated he does not not "push" products on customers at all.It seems when Len or a few other people state facts on this forum with the knowledge and experience to back up their statements there are always people who want to bash.If you can't handle the"facts" then don't read anything that Len has to say.You cannot win the debate with Len when it comes totechnical aspects of this sport.

RE: Arrow Squaring?
 

Little Chief:

Sorry about the bright colors. I'll watch that from now on. The reason I use colors is to quickly recognize my posts. I'm so busy that it aids me in doing a quick review of a thread. Also, I like a little color in my life. At my age that's a big deal.:D

Newman1:

Quote:

---

You cannot win the debate with Len when it comes totechnical aspects of this sport.

---

Thank you for those kind words, but you know I love debates because I've learned from them. Many times I've commended people for showing me a different approach. I want people/customers to challenge me. It really makes me bear down with the 'thinking cap' at times.

Hard-nosed? Yea. C.O.F.? Yea. Always willing to learn? Absolutely!