MDBUCKHUNTER

Sometimes you just gotta let the professionals be professionals and go hunting.

While it's nice to tweak every little piece of your equipment, some things are better left up to the manufacturer. Remember, he gets paid to monkey around, you don't.

0.001" tolerance plus or minus should not be your focus. Focus on the major items and you will drastically increase your chances of taking any animal.

davepjr71

Len,

No disrespect but I believe if a person looks hard enoughand has the resources it's possible to find problems.

I believe that if you buy quality arrows you will get a quality product. I'm sure you can find a few that are lemons. It's impossible to have perfection in any facet of life. For the average person they do not have the resources to sift thru arrows to find the perfect ones and theflawed ones.

For the average archer the equipment is far superior than what I started off with 24 years ago. Even the ones you would show me are more than likely better then what I started off with. If a person is patient and watches what they are doing you can mimimize this problem.

Tools like the ASD square the insert to the shaft. Therefore, even if the insert is not properly seated the broadhead will seat properly to the shaft.

crimedog

I find the middle of the string. I have an arrow with a bubble level on it and use another level on the string.

Len in Maryland

Dave:

You made this statement in your original post concerning this thread:

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.....with the slower bows it wasn't as big of an issue as the burners we have now. My aluminums hit the same field tip or broadhead. With carbons you can use the little plastic washers.

Today's bows seem to require a much higher degree of tuning at all aspects due to the increased speed and much shorter ATA. The bow I have now is probably close to 100 fps faster than my Whitetail legend I bought in 1990.

I agree with you totally on the issue of "Today's bows seem to require a much higher degree of tuning at all aspects due to the increased speed and shorter ATA."

What I have todisagree with you about is this statement

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I believe that if you buy quality arrows you will get a quality product.

, and this statement

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For the average person they do not have the resources to sift thru arrows to find the perfect ones and theflawed ones.

, and this statement

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Tools like the ASD square the insert to the shaft. Therefore, even if the insert is not properly seated the broadhead will seat properly to the shaft.

I also have to disagree with MDBUCKHUNTER on his post


Now let me address these issues one by one.
1. You may spend good money on 'quality' arrows but I think you, like many others, are basing quality on manufacturers' advertising. I can assure you that we've seen .001 arrows that measured between .030 to .050. That's 30 to 50 times worse than what was advertised. Then you have the issue of spine consistency that can be tested with a very expensive spine testing machine (which we have) or various other 'no tools needed' methods. And keep in mind that spine consistency does not always directly relate to advertised spine.
2. The "average" shooter can surely sift through his arrows to determine which is better than the other. One way is through broadhead grouping/tuning and there are several other ways that do not require special tools.
3. The ASD tool will surely square the insert to the 'end' of the shaft, but will prove useless if the shaft is not straight.
4. It's up to PROfessional people like myself who have dedication to their face-to-face everyday customers to evaluate/test and report findings that are at times contrary to advertised specs. This is in the true interest of the end user - my customers (case in point). Manufacturers come and go, but the true PRO Shop is something that must always strive to gain and maintain the customers' respect and dedication. "Honesty is necessary to long-term relationships".
5. The manufacturer gets paid by retail outlets and rarely has a one-on-one relationship with the end user. The retail outlet takes your money and has the responsibility to make sure you are properly serviced. The more intimate you the customer are with the retail outlet, the more honest and service-based that outlet must be. If your service agent is just passing on goods with no desire/method of whether or not you're getting the best goods for your money, then maybeit's time tofind another service agent/outlet. In other words, is the customer just a number or a person with a name and a need?
6. Focusing on major items will get you in the 'ballpark' while focusing on the minor items as well will win you the 'championship'.
7. IfI'mpaying for .001 and test to find I'mgetting .050, I've really got a problem with that and won't pass this product onto my customers. If others would have the same capability/principles, the manufacturers of those overly advertised products might get the message and start providing us all with what is actually advertised.

In closing, it's very easy to make an aloof statement about quality as long as others don't question that quality and blindly accept it. Yes, I may look negatively on many things, and I've been accussed of that before; but, with the knowledge and tools that I have, if I don't look out for my customers, my customers might notstay my customers.

davepjr71

Len,

My statement was far from aloof. It's based on years of shooting andknowing for myselfthat for most shooters you do not need .001 straightness to be a good shot or shoot accurately.

1. I'm sure you have seen an arrow like that. the question is how many dozens did you sift through to find that arrow? I'm sure that the higher quality shafts have much better tolerances than a cheaper one. That is not based on any advertising but common sense and my own intelligence.

2. The average person does not have the resources to throw out arrows if they do not meet .001 straightness. At $10+ a pop I'm not going to throw an arrow away because of that. If the arrow still shoots the X ring at 50 yds it's straight enough to shoot a deer at 20. I don't know howI used to shoot Gamegetters accurately at 50 yds based on your criteria of perfection.I think most of my arrows were bent a little. I used my handsand eyes to straighten them and could out shoot many guys with XX78'sstaightened with a machine.

This thread was I belive started for squaring for hunters, not target shooters.

3. The ASD squares the ferrule of the broadhead with the shaft. Straightness is relative.I'd hazard a wager that the average shooter will not notice the difference between a .001 and a .009 arrow in flight. If that were the case every arrow would be .001. At least if the ferrule is in line with the shaft the shaft and broadhead will be in tune with each other and the tip will not steer the arrow.

4. It's just as important for the average Joe to tell a manufacturer if there is something wrong with a product. I think manufacturers are more inclined in today's market to listen to individuals then in the past. Especially with the boon in products and small market manufacturers

5. A Pro shop serves a purpose. However, if a person wants to figure things out for themselves through their own testing and experience than that benefits the industry as well. A pro shop also has the responsibility to their customers to listen to what the customer wants and discuss the options.A good pro shop does not tell the customer what manufacturer of bow, rest, or arrrow they should use.

MDBUCKHUNTER

I can tell you right now I don't have the money to be testing and throwing away arrows because they are not 0.001" tolerance like it says on the package. I am a hunter and our tolerances are a bit different from that of Target Shooters.

I can also tell you that 99% of archery shops (common sense approximation)probably don't test every single arrow coming into their shop and out to their customers for tolerance, spine, etc. If so, then that shop probably has an overhead rate so high that itraises the prices of all items for sale in that shop to make up for hiring extra employees, to sit there all day and test arrows.

Archery is not brain surgery...so lets not make it that way.

I will tell any archer that form is the number one priority. You can have the best equipment in the world but that doesn't mean anything if you can't properly use it. Also, for us who can't afford to have expensive arrows and can't afford to purchase all the equipment thatone must have to test our arrows, proper form can help out arrows, bows, broad heads, etc. that aren't at the proper tolerance level.

I also don't agree that the manufacturer rarely have a one-on-one relationship with the end user. I will use Mathews as an example because they are a great company in my opinion. Any questions I have had with my bow and it's interaction with other products or if I am seeking tuning strategy information, I have talked to Mathews directly. Not their customer service people or some pro shop junky, but their engineers and technicians. How? Telephone and the forums on the Mathews Webpage. I have also done the same with Fuse and Easton.

No longer are manufacturers channeling 100% through the pro shops like they did in the early 90's. It is smart business to hire technicians to answer web posts rather than have everyone sendingequipment in all the time.

Len in Maryland

Dave:

Your idea of what I am and what I promote is way off-base. You should talk to people who know me or stop by the shop to get a better idea of howmy business isreally conducted. In fact, with the BowTech truck and Pat Dinan (BowTech Shooter) stopping by next Friday afternoon, it might be a good time to visit.

First, I did not call your statement aloof. I was referring to some manufacturers being able to advertise tight tolerances and getting away with it with little to no challenge. You're absolutely right about most shooters not needing .001 and I've never said otherwise. You appear to have a perception that I'm more into target/tournament shooting. That is as far from the truth about me as possible.

Let me address your statements and hopefully straighten this out:

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1......the question is how many dozens did you sift through to find that arrow?

I don't let anyone sift through arrows to pick out the best ones and I don't do it personnally. If you ask any of my present or past employees, they'll verify that I will grab a random dozen new shafts for myself and then proceed to build them. In fact, I just grabbed a dozen discontinued Beman Carbon Matrix shafts for myself and built them. Since they were the last dozen I had and were not very popular (but good shafts), it made sense for me to use them rather than build from new stock. Out of the dozen I got 10 that are broadhead quality and the other2 will be for practice. BTW, I practice with a mixed batch of arrows. Ask anyone who's seen me shoot at the shop.

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I'm sure that the higher quality shafts have much better tolerances than a cheaper one.

That is a misconception if you're meaning that higher quality relates to higher price. I've got some $60/dz shafts that outperform $120/dz shafts. The ones that I previously mentioned that were supposed to be .001 and went out to .050 were about $120/dz for raw shafts. When we found the first ones that were pretty bad, we decided to check the entire lot of about 200 shafts. Of those, 47% were well beyond the advertised .001 tolerance. We sent them back and even the manufacturer said they were horrible. The next lot they sent were just the same and the third lot achieved 14% rejection rate. We don't buy those arrows anymore. From year to year I'll tell my customers, who are 99% hunters, which company has the better overall yield.

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2. The average person does not have the resources to throw out arrows if they do not meet .001 straightness.

In my shop wesell mostly .006arrows andtry to make sure that the yields are the best available. We have to carrysome of the 'name brand' because some customers demand them; but, whenever possible, we steer them to the 'better buys'.

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At $10+ a pop I'm not going to throw an arrow away because of that.

We suggest to our customers that they cull the worst of a dozen and use them for practice. After all, that's what I do.

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I don't know howI used to shoot Gamegetters accurately at 50 yds based on your criteria of perfection.

First, it appears that you're comparing aluminum arrows to carbon arrows. On the whole, aluminum arrows are consistently straight whereas many carbon arrows vary in straightness and spine consistencyconsiderably.

As far as my idea of perfection, it's making sure you put your best arrow behind a fixed broadhead, along with a well-tuned hunting rig, with the form necessary to make those shots that challenge the best shooters in the world - hunters.

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This thread was I belive started for squaring for hunters, not target shooters.

Man, you're so far off base on your perception of me and my customer base. Where/how did you ever get this impression?

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At least if the ferrule is in line with the shaft the shaft and broadhead will be in tune with each other and the tip will not steer the arrow.

Onlyif the arrow is straight over it's entire length.Note, the ACDis only relative to a short section of the arrow. Any variations within or outside the fulcrum points can cause problems.

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4. It's just as important for the average Joe to tell a manufacturer if there is something wrong with a product. I think manufacturers are more inclined in today's market to listen to individuals then in the past. Especially with the boon in products and small market manufacturers

I totally concur. Problem is that most "average Joe" archers accept what they get and are reluctant to complain.

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5. A Pro shop serves a purpose. However, if a person wants to figure things out for themselves through their own testing and experience than that benefits the industry as well. A pro shop also has the responsibility to their customers to listen to what the customer wants and discuss the options.

No problem here. I'm always asking my customers for feedback on products.

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A good pro shop does not tell the customer what manufacturer of bow, rest, or arrrow they should use.

Again, you're really off-base on your perception of me. My customers complain that I won't tell them which product to use. I present all the positives and negatives of products and tell them to make an educated decision based on their needs/desires. I think that pushing products on customers is unprofessional. I think that educating customers is professional.

Finally, the invitation is open for you to visit my shop and see for yourself what goes on. Just sit back and listen as I wait on customers.

davepjr71

Len,

I've based my statements on being at your shop a few times. Bought a bow off of you when I first moved here. I've also stood around and listened to you talk to customers.If I got the wrong impression then I did. I'll leave it at that.

MDBUCKHUNTER

lol

bigzombee69

The only thing Len has ever pushed on to customers is that dam beef jerky, I love that stuff. I have learned alot from Len over the years of me buggin the crap outta him. He dont lie.

P.S. Len you need to order more meat and cheese sticks, I hate the last one, BURP!!!