So I got my new X-Force....
 

Well I picked up my new X-Force. The dealer had ordered two identical 60# versions, one for me and one to sell at the shop. I thought they felt long when I pulled them back at the factory-sent (supposedly) 29" draw. Both measured an AMO draw of 3/4" to 7/8" longer than the stated module.

I had ordered the bow as a 27" AMO draw, and I believe all X-Forces come with 29" modules installed, and then they just include the desired modules with the bow.

So I installed the 27" modules, moved the drawstop peg to the #7, 70% letoff position (#7 is the corresponding position for the 27" mods)and drew it back. I knew immediately it was too long. I don't "guess" at drawlengths, or go by how it feels compared to another one of my bows that I think is X" of draw, or assume that it what the manufacturer says it is.

I measure it.

Cams are aligned with the timing marks, axle length and brace are right on specifcations as well. I put it on my drawing machine and cranked it back until the drawstop peg and the module slot just start to make contact with the cables. This position would be the lowest part of the valley as once you start pulling into the cables the weight would immediately ramp back up.

Here's the bottom cam on the draw machine, the stop is just touching the cable:



Here's the top cam as the module's slot just starts to touch the cable:



And here's the reading on a measured shaft from the throat of the nock:



The target-edge of the Berger hole is VERY close to being on the same vertical line as the deepest point of the grip on the X-Force, so you can see that the true draw of my bow is around 26-1/8+", if not closer to 26-1/4". Add in the 1-3/4" to get to AMO specifications, and your at just about 27-7/8" to 28". And this is for their 27" draw module. hmmmmmm.

But, this thing DOES smoke arrows. I knew I was in trouble on the first shot when my test arrow plowed though my target and through the wall behind it. When I tried to retrieve my arrow- I had to wrestle with it a bit....



Oh well, another hole in the wall in my shop.

So I setup the chrono and a few test arrows, all done with a tied nock and short d-loop with nothing else on the string except for the factory-installed speed nocks and shrink tubing.

At a measured 62#, and let's call it 27-3/4" AMO draw (27" mods installed):

310gr arrow = 315fps (three shot average)
385gr (last years hunting arrow) = 286fps
463gr = 263fps

Now for me with a shorty draw, I've never seen those kind of numbers on my chrono.

But, I would have liked to seen a more accurate representation of their draw modules compared to real-world AMO standards. As it is, I'll have to order the 26" modules from PSE to get to where I need to be at my 27" AMO draw. booooooooo......

Bow was very quiet and nice to shoot. I have test shot a BT Guardian a few times, and while the X-Force is not quite as quiet or shock-free as the Guardian (nothing else is), I had no complaints and thought is was very impressive on the shot for its speed. Comparable to just about any of the other new, shock-free, parallel limbed models out there. You're splitting some hairs if you complain about this bow being loud or vibration-prone. I like how light this bow is. When I shot a Guardian I immediately thought it felt heavy. Not so with this bow- very light.

I had a few absorbing stabilizers laying around and tried a few. X-Ring Deadshot, GK Tranquilzer, and Sims Enhancer. The one that seemed to work the best was the lightest one I had- the Tranquilzer. It removed a touch of resonance from the handle. Very nice indeed.

PSE's speed charts on their website indicate that for 27" draw:

60lb IBO arrow 310
65lb IBO arrow 313

For 28" draw:

60lb IBO arrow 322
65lb IBO arrow 325

Remember I did have a d-loop on the string, so that would account for possibly 3fps? So we are close, maybe 4-5 fps slower than the charts. Not too shabby all things considered. But I wonder about some of the speed claims people are posting for the X-Force at or above the speed charts.

If I hadn't MEASURED the drawlength and just slapped on the supposed-27" modules, then I'd be thinking I was sailing along faster than PSE speeds!

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

315- 62# - 27 3/4"

I wouldtheninterpolate60# - 27 at about 304. Then add 1 fps for D loop (I measure them at5 grains= 1 fps) which will give you 305 fps.

Then if you again interpolate using10 fps per inch, 30" would add 30 fps over 305 and would put you around 335. That's good fora 60# bow.

I thinkthe BowTech Equalizer has advertised advertised speeds similar towhat you gotat 27" DL. Would you mind buying one of them and doing some testing for me???:D

Good report. Thanks.

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Black Frog , many who have shot this bow say the draw is very stout feeling around 10 lbs heavyer than what the scales say , and that it has a "no valley" cam , whats your opinion ?

I know shoot'n a no valley cam with a draw thats too long is a real pain .

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Len- funny you mention the BT Equalizer. I played with a friend's EQ which also had their "27 inch" module on it. I measured that to be long as well,just under 27.5" for the bow I tested. And at over 61lbs it sent my 310gr arrow at 301fps. First time my chrono saw numbers over 300fps at shorter drawlengths. It was a nice bow- but it didn't get me to buy one. ;)

When my other X-Force mods come in, I'll set it up for a true 27" AMO draw and get some more numbers. Hopefully early next week.

ijimmy- the speed has to come from somewhere, so yes the draw poundage starts very early in the cycle and goes to aboutthe end with a short valley. Which is why I ordered a 60# version. At 62#, I have no complaints. I don't think I (me personally) would want a 70# for hunting. Sure, I could pull it back, but I doubt people can do it nice and smooth especially on a frigid morning after sitting there in the cold for two hours. I just don't need a 70# bow of this model, or any model for that matter. With the speeds and efficiencies that modern compounds are producing- I have no reason to look past lower-60# ranges. And that's at my short drawlength!

It doesn't have much of a wide valley, and I would think trying to let down a 70# version smoothly in a treestand would be kinda rough- it ramps up quick. But again, that is why I went with a 60# version. I disagree that my 62# bow feels like a 70# version. I find it quite manageable and nice to shoot (so far). I got used to the draw cycle very quickly and never thought about it again until I went to shoot my target bow and how completely different that bow then felt! I let some others shoot the X-Force, and I may have sold one on the spot- they liked it that much and saw the speed numbers I was getting.

The valley isfarily short so if you're a "creeper" this bow can want to take off if you're not paying attention. But I can't say that I ever creep, so I never noticed it. I think creeping forward on the shot may also be a sign that your draw is a little long. Proper draw will let you engage your back muscles at full draw and keep you solid.

I'll reserve accuracy judgements until I get some new arrows made up and put some range time in. Trying to get some groups with a draw that is 3/4" too long for me is kind of pointless at the moment.

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Todd:

When I look at the ballpark numbers of 301 vs. 304 in a non-head-to-head shot comparison, it's not that far off. Interesting enough for me to try to get both bows side by side to see actually how close they really shoot. If they're that close, then the deciding factor might be comfort, ease of shooting,or smoothness of draw cycle for some to make a decision.

Also, when I checked the DL of one I had in the shop, I got from 1/4 to 3/8 difference in advertised vs. actual DL. The 3/4 to 7/8 is less than I get on PSE's. As I told you originally, I usually get from 3/4 to a little over 1".

Thank you. I enjoy comparing notes.

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

But that EQ 301fps was 1/2" over 27" AMO and at 61#, and the owner had 'tweaked' itas much as he could with cam rotation and letoff to squeeze the most out if it he could. We are estimating 304-305fps at 60# 27" AMO for my particular X-Force.

I want to tinker with cam timing once my new modules come in. Also want to play around with the speed nock locations to seehow much of a difference that makes.

BUT- I need a different press to work on this bow. Back at Vegas, I ordered the Last Chance Archery EZ Press with stand and tilt option. Very nice timing in that they shipped it out today and I should have it Tues or Wed next week! :)

Then I can really start to tinker with this thing...

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Hey Todd, your PM box is full by the way! :)

Here's what I was gonna send you... :DDon't figure it's anything anyone else can't see...

Thanks for posting your findings on your new baby! Sounds like a great bow, and I know you'll be happy with it!

I just wanted to take a sec to say that I've always enjoyed your posts, and have enjoyed seeing you back a bit more here on HNI lately...

Good shooting!
Greg

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Thanks Greg,

My whoops- I haven't checked my inbox totals for some time! It's empty now.

Thanks for the tip! :)

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

this is exactly what i felt when i shot them. i do not like the draw cycle at all, they have absolutely no valley, and they are not even close to forgiving.

if you are just looking for speed then this would be the bow to have, if you want anything else, keep looking.....

of course, this is just my opinion after shooting all of the new bows, which everyone should do before they buy one..

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Hi everyone, I'm new to this board but not archery hunting. I like the fact that there is actually discussion here and not bashing.

I got my X-Force the first week they got to the dealers. My setup is, 64#, 27" dl, d-loop and peep, shooting 250 Maximus Hunters at 353grs. I figure I have well over a 1000 shots thru it. When I firstshotit I would have agreed that the draw cycle was a little harsh. I went to the dealer and shot the 70# bow twice trying to decide between the 70# or ordering a 60#. You get used to the draw cycle very quickly. In the end I went with the 70#. I was also shooting with the dl an inch too long, until the 27" module came in, not a good way to shoot this bow. The draw cycle and valley is MUCH better at the proper dl. I also recomend shooting the 70% letoff. Just a suggestion but for a true test of this bow, make sure you have the correct dl for you, and shoot at least 30 to 40 shots thru it.

I just started shooting 3d two months ago. My first shoot was with my AR Velocity, the next 3 with the X-Force. The last two shoots my scores havewent up80 points. I would credit the improvement at 50% to learning the 3d game and 50% the bow.

This is my opinion and results shooting the X-Force. Everyone likes different bows, that's why there is so many out there. Shoot them all and decide for yourself. Hopefully everyone finds one that works as good for themas the X-Force does for me.

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Todd:

One of the guys who attended my seminars this weekend had a X-Force. He worked for a local manufacturer of archery equipment.

The draw cycle on his bow set at 70# was better than what I experienced at the ATA Show and I think I know why. The one at the ATA Show was a much heavier poundage and I think the limbs on that one may have been turned down to compress the rubber dampener between the limb and the riser. It is still a unique draw cycle to gain that speed, but I have to admit that the one he brought too the seminar was not like the one I experienced previously.

One thing that did disturb me, however, was the draw length. His actually measured 31 1/2" on what he said was the 30" module (#10 setting).

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

Len,

I finally got my smaller mods to get to my 27" draw. Feels good now for fit.

The rubber cushions under the limb pockets are not supposed to be compressed much, if any- They say optimumspace is .200".

And I got my new bow press to be able to work on this bow. I put on my smaller mods and moved my string to the long drawlength peg on the cam. My bow came from PSE at around 62+ pounds. When moving the string to the long peg- I was surprised at the poundage jump. Around 3.5 pounds! So now my bow is about 66 pounds. I don't mind thata bit. At first when ordering the bow I was a little scared of having a "speed bow" with a possible harsh draw. But after shooting it at 62# for a while I was thinking maybe I should've ordered a 70# instead and just turned it down a little. Mid-60's is now just perfect for what I wanted.

Now, if someone had ordered a 70# bow and then needed to be on the long drawlength peg they could be in for a bit of a surprise. From the X-Forces I've seen, they all seem to be coming in a couple of pounds heavy in the factory "0" position. So that means someone's ordered 70# bow could be 75-76# in the long peg! weeeee!!!! just something for people to be aware of.....

I also took my bow completely apart to check it out a little closer. Those limbs are completely straight when they are let down! Kinda freaky. All the limb pocket cushions and pivot points were nicely lubricated from the factory.

What I did find that I wasn't crazy about was that the limb bolts going into the riser seemed to have a lot of crap on the threads. To me it looks like they didn't clean out the threaded holes very well before lubing and assembling the bow. I suppose it wouldn't be a big deal if you never intended to turn you limb bolts very much, but still I felt much better cleaning the bolts and threaded holes and reapplying grease.

Now with the correct drawlength- I don't thinkthe bowis overly harsh to draw at all. Very pleasant for the incredible speeds this thing achieves. And I added a homemade string suppressor which removed any resonance of the bow on the shot. It now feels very dead in the hand. :) Not that it was bad to begin with, but now it is really dead.

Still in the process of replacing strings and cables. Haven't had time to do any speed testing with them on yet. I've been impressed at the ease of getting really nice arrow flight with some Carbon Express 3D Selects 300's I had laying around.

Some of my groupings out to 60yds were veryencouraging. This bow does not shoot like a low brace height bow from what I've seen so far. I'm still quite impressed with this bow.

RE: So I got my new X-Force....
 

I finally got to tinkering with new strings and cables that I made up.

The stock calbes from the factory were starting to have serving separation within 100 shots. Not so hot. So I made up some green/brown twist 452X string/cables that look really nice. The 452X may not be quite as fast as 8125 or some of the Brownell products, but I like the stability of it. I took off the speed nocks of the stock string and played around with placement on my new string to get the most out of their effect.

PSE must have done their homework on placement because right where they had them is where I found the greatest speed gains. I found the speed nocks to be worth about 3fps. I tried moving them up and down the string a bit, and also more and less speed nocks. PSE uses 5 speednocks near the top and bottom cam. I reapplied some heat shrink tubing once I found the optimum position. PSE told me that the best position is to measure up exactly 3" from the lobe tip of the cam and put the center speednock there. Put two more on both sides of that center speednock. Those werevery accurate directions from what I've found. I'm not sure how longer drawlengths would change that optimum position. I only have so much time to experiment!

Getting out to the range with my Carbon Select 300's was fun. I'm trying the newer, tougher Quickspin 2" ST's this year. They are much more durable than the older version, and so far they haven't shown any signs of wrinkle or bend with multiple arrow slams and scraping hits.

I'm starting out using my trusty old Bodoodle Pro500 on this bow. Getting holes in paper was very simple with the X-Force. But as we all know, paper tuning can just be the start of fine-tuning.

Some people don't give much credit to bareshaft tuning a compound with a release. I'm one that does. I apply some wraps of electrical tape to the rear of the bareshaft to simulate the FOC of my fletched arrows. I think that if you can get a bareshaft impacting with (or near) fletched shafts at distance, that is telling me that my fletching is having to do little or no work for steering correction. From my experience it makes for very nice fixed blade broadhead flight that matches (or damn close to) field tip impact.

I was getting nice bullet holes with an even 90 degree nocking point at 4-5ft from the bow. Once I got out to the range I was getting nice groupings but decided to throw my bareshaft into the mix to see what that did. At 10 yds my bareshaft was impacting near my fletched shafts, but with a severe nock-down orientation into the target. At 20yds with the same setting the bareshaft was porpoising badly.

I first go for level bareshaft entry into a shoulder-high 10yd target, and not too concerned with left/right tail orientation just yet. The nock point position will change the up/down bareshaft tail position. Once I have the bareshaft impacting level into the target, then I start to address the lefts/rights of the bareshaft. And generally, the spine and windage will change the left/right orientation.

So I slightly raised my nock point and started over at 10yds. It was a little better. I raised it a little more. Better yet. I raised it one more time and the bareshaft was impacting straight into the 10yd target. I moved back to 20yds and there was no more porpoising, but it still had a slightly nock-down orientation in the target. I tweaked the nock point up a tad more and moved back to 30yds. Looked decent, and impacted veryclosely to my fletched shafts.

Moved back to 40yds- impacted near fleltched shafts, within 10" or so. I played with my windage setting a bit and moved back to 50yds. Now I was happy. At 50yds I got my bareshaft impacting within a foot or so of a fletched shaft grouping. :) A little wind or a slight form change can move that bareshaft impact point around quite a bit at that range, so I don't get too worried about it at that distance. This was the quickest amount of time I've ever done this process. At times it can be apretty tough tuning process- tweaking poundage, arrow spine, windage, nock point, etc.. It can involve a LOT of range time and tinker time. This one all fell together really fast (and easy).

I had my chrono out at the range, and if I plan to use these arrows for hunting, they are sailing along at 289fps with my bow set at 27-1/4" AMO draw. I haven't weighed them, but I'm very impressed with the speed for my shorty draw, it smokes arrows along.So were others at my club range that were watching me tinker. I let some guys shoot my bow with a very surprised "wow" reaction, and a bigger WOW when they see how fast it is- and that speed with being that quiet and shock free. I have a string supressor that I mounted on the bow, and that makes it completey dead in the hand. Some commented that they weren't used to the draw cycle, but could get used to it quickly. Their bows tend to ramp up slower to peak poundage vs the fairly quick ramp up of the X-Force. I don't even notice anything about the draw cycle after having it several weeks now.

So things are progressing well so far. I was surprised that I needed to raise the nocking point as much as I did past 90 degrees to achieve great bareshaft flight. But the results have been very positive. I'm really looking forward to hunting with this bow this year. :D