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Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
I was out playing with my son's Fred Bear Element tonight. I have had the bow limbs back off to 45 lbs. (the bow is a 50/60) for about three months now. I got some 500 series Eastman arrows initially that have shot fairly well (tennis ball groups at 20 yards) an figured this was about as good as a $300 bow was going to shoot.
I decided to crank the limbs up all the way to see how the bow shot with 400 series arrows. After some group shooting, I started backing the limbs off a half turn at a time - and shooting a five shot group at each setting. At 47 lbs of draw weight (five turns out) the bow produced a 1" group at 20 yards. I tried three more groups - same results. Went down another half a turn and the groups opened up to almost 2". How often do you hear of final tuning the draw weight of the bow to a particular arrow? The charts show the spine of this arrow to have a range of 45 lbs. to 52 lbs. - but apparently there isa sweet spot at 47 lbs. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
How often do you hear of final tuning the draw weight of the bow to a particular arrow? The charts show the spine of this arrow to have a range of 45 lbs. to 52 lbs. - but apparently there is a sweet spot at 47 lbs. These are the steps that aren't often done, but will help: Spine test for consistency and stiff side Put enough weight on the front Put enough drag on the rear Bareshaft tune for spine Trim from both ends Spin for broadhead straightness Adjust draw weight to fine tune dynamic spine |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
thats sort of like limb tuning back one of a half turn or vice versa
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Adjusting draw weight to perfectly match the bow to the arrow's spine. It's part of what's called 'tuning the bow to the arrow,' Roskoe.It goes hand in hand with adjusting the bow's tiller toperfectly match yourgrip. I've tried to get this across for years now.People who crank the limb bolts all the way down and leave 'em there are ignoring the single greatest benefit of having a bow with adjustable draw weight.
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
ORIGINAL: Roskoe I have had the bow limbs back off to 45 lbs. (the bow is a 50/60).... At 47 lbs of draw weight (five turns out) the bow produced a 1" group at 20 yards.- but apparently there isa sweet spot at 47 lbs. If it is common...then if I want to shoot at 65-70lbs. , which is comfortable for me ...should I be buying 80lb. limbs??? to get the sweet spot? The sweet spot below recommended weight doesn't seem right? Can anyone explain this? OR...does an overspined arrow answer the question? |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
For a begining archer this might be overlooked , most of them shoot what the shop gives them .
For those that are experianced , this is the starting point of tuneing . Heres a link for you from an experianced guy who preaches spine tuneing as THE most important aspect . http://domino.htcomp.net/ragsdale.nsf To answer archer58's questions , get the bow you can pull , and then the arrows to match , then fine tune the spine for a "forgiving" setup Overspined arrows are not the answer , corectly spined arrows are . Slightly overs[ined is usely more forgiveing than slightly underspined thats why they are sugested , grossly overspined arrows can be very hard or imposable to tune , when compared to the corectly spined arrows . |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
That is why the limbs are adjustable, so you can tune for correct spine. Just nobody uses them for that. I don't know why they make adjustable limbs anymore? Might as well just pin them at peak draw weight since hardly anyone turns them down. I can't beleive how many times I hear someone complaining about trying to broad head tune or some other form of tuning. And when you ask them if they tried to turn the poundage down they look at you like your nuts. Then you explain it to them and they still won't do it? Uh, oh, I'm ranting.
When I set up a bow I pick an arrow based on the mid setting of the bow. Like if my bow is 50 to 60 lbs I pick my arrow based on 55 lbs. That way I have the leeway to tune up or down to find the correct spine. I won't buy a bow with a peak weight higher than I can comfortably draw. Seems like a waste to me. That being said I feel the most overlooked aspect of bow tuning is the shooter. Consistent form is THE most important aspect of shooting accurately. And after that come well matched straight arrows. Then spine and lastly nock and rest set up. Just my opinions anyway. Paul |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Your comment about shooting as good as the what you are going to get isn't exactly true. I had a $150 Bear Whitetail Legend bow that I had to shoot at multiple targets with because of breaking arrows. It had a $15 double prong rest and a $20 site on it and shot XX75's.
Even with an arrow not spined exactly right tight groups are still possible if you have good form, therest is set correctly, and your sites are on. Especially at only 20 yds you do not need perfect spine to be accurate to less than 2 inches. You obviously have good form for the groups you are shooting with the bow turned up to inside the recommended wieght. The poor groups are probably the result ofshooting the bow below it's recommended draw weight. Five lbs is probably a min of 1 turn and maybe more further out than recommended. Which is a no-no with any bow. Yes, it will turn out that far. However, there's a reason they say 50 - to 60 lbs. Once you get below that weight the limbs are moving more than usual due to the bolt being extended so far from the riser. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Dave - several of the shops in the area report that this particular bow can be backed off six turns with no ill effects. For many other bows, they say the maximum is often only four turns. My thought was that, at age 14 and only 140 pounds, my son could only pull 45 pounds - at least three months ago. So I bought some 500 series arrows to get him started - and planned to turn the limbs up a little at a time as he gains strength. By this time next year, I hope to be up to 50 pounds. Maybe another year we could be up to 55 or 60.
Even at 45 pounds, the bow shoots well enough for big game hunting. But I never expected a $300 bow to shoot as well as my $800 Hoyt. Apparently I underestimated themodest little Fred Bear Element. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
I shoot bows often at under the reccomended suggested weight. Never have an issue with it. I actually shoot spots with a bow that is rated at 50-60 lbs and I shoot it at 45 lbs.
I have shot several bows at extremes of draw weight both way over and way under what the bows are rated at, never had an issue with consistency or accuracy. The reason you shouldn't turn them out that far is because you run the risk of the bolts coming out of the riser and the bow will explode on you. ALWAYS know how many turns you can back a bow off from bottomed before messing with it. They are not all the same. I saw someone on this site I believe tell someone they can back the limbs off about 6 turns and be safe. That is crap, try it on a bowtech and see what happens. I would suggest wearing a helmet and heavy clothing when you do it though, because it will come apart on you;). You don't need an expensive bow to shoot well though. Most of the records that have been set and yet to beaten were done with old bows that would be considered cheap and junky by todays standards. Paul |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
You posted while was posting. I am not saying your bow can not be turned out that many turns. I was saying that not all bows are the same and you need to know the correct specs before you mess with it.
I agree though, for target shooting being over spined shouldn't make a big difference, especially at close ranges like 20 yards. Now when you try to put a broad head on that baby or shoot long distances you may have trouble with an extremely stiff arrow. Lots of fletching and FOC can help with this sometimes. Paul |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Understandable why you have it turned down. It's better for him to be able to draw it properly to learn bad form or get hurt trying to draw a weight that may be too much for him.
If the shops say it's ok then it's ok. I was just giving my $.02 on what could be the issue with your particular bow on why the accuracy starts to go as you go under the recommended weight. The moreI think about thisI have a second hypothesis. The element is considered a parallel limb bow. I would think that with parallel limb bows the further you go out the closer you go to true parallel and the more cam timing comes into play. By going closer to parallel it would mean that your limbs are only doing so much work and the cams are doing most of it. If the timing is off on the cams then that will effect accuracy since the limbs do not have a chance to equalize the slight difference in cam timing.I could be way off on this since the parallel limb bows are new to me. What you are doing with him is definitely the right way to teach and I think it's great to get a child involved in archery and the outdoors. I hope that he enjoys shooting it for many years. My hat is off to you. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Paul,
That's for sure about knowing the specs. Everyone and every thing I read says don't take my bow below 60 lbs.My face is ugly enough without wedging the cam of a bow in it. :D Ido agree with you about when you put a broadhead and the range starts to increase.I think what helped me with my set-up was that I shot a 145 gr tip and light long shafts with fake feathers on them. Even with that I do not believe I had groups likethe field tips. Maybe soft ball at 35 yds. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Shooting form and bow torque are probably the most mis-understood amoung archers. It's easy to blame the equipment!
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Adjusting the limbs may also effect nock travel. And I am not accusing anyone but I do know that I have mistakenly tightened one limb down more than the other...
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
"Most overlooked aspect of bow tuning?"
WIND!! Don't tune where there is any;) |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Most overlooked is the nut behind the string.:D
Then I would consider it to bespine and thencentershot. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
this was a very informative topic.
Shane |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
ORIGINAL: Roskoe The charts show the spine of this arrow to have a range of 45 lbs. to 52 lbs. - but apparently there isa sweet spot at 47 lbs. That can be HUGE differences. A guy shooting a 29" draw at 65# might use 29" arrows, and another guy who shoots a 27" draw might like his arrows a tad longer and shoot that same 29" arrow at 65# with the same model bow. The "charts" say for that 65# and that arrow length it should work in both cases, but having two extra inches of powerstroke will affect the spine of the arrow dramatically. The charts are just a basic starting point for finding the right combination of arrow spine, length, tip weight, bow poundage, etc... Nothing is written in stone and it may take plenty of tinker-time to find the magic combination. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
That's whereI think a program can save you a ton of money and time. A program costs $25 min and can at least get you in the ball park better than a chart. Better than buying $100 arrows and finding out they aren't spined right for your draw length.
Or even one step beyond that is Easton's package that provides a draw weight/force curve gadget for the bow along with chrono to recommend arrow spine. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
ORIGINAL: WKP Todd Shooting form and bow torque are probably the most mis-understood amoung archers. It's easy to blame the equipment! |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
There are many small details in tuning that can help if addressed and corrected. However, for most shooters tuning the bow and arrows is a very small part of accuracy. I think that arrow flight is important for hunters since it is a part of good penetration.
But for accuracy, you only need a bow that you can shoot and well matched arrows. The arrows don't need to be precisely matched to the bow, just matched to each other andapproximately matched to the bow. The most overlooked aspect of tuning? IMHO it's nock straightness. When I got a tool to precisely measure nock straighness, my league scores increased by almost 10 points. I won't tell you the exact numbers, but let's just say that I still have an opportunity to demonstrate the value of self coaching;) In Roscoe's first post of this tread, I don't think that a half turn would account for the improvement in group size. Perhaps he hit on a sweet spot in his draw length. That may account for the improvement, but I don't think that much improvement can be attributed to fine tuning arrow spine unless there is something else going on with the bow, such as fletching contact. I do agree with WKB Todd and Tfox about the loose nut on the release.:D |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
The most overlooked aspect of tuning? IMHO it's nock straightness. When I got a tool to precisely measure nock straighness, my league scores increased by almost 10 points. I won't tell you the exact numbers, but let's just say that I still have an opportunity to demonstrate the value of self coaching;) |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Come to Len's tuning seminar. I'll be happy to show it to you there.
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
ORIGINAL: AllenRead There are many small details in tuning that can help if addressed and corrected. However, for most shooters tuning the bow and arrows is a very small part of accuracy. I think that arrow flight is important for hunters since it is a part of good penetration. But for accuracy, you only need a bow that you can shoot and well matched arrows. The arrows don't need to be precisely matched to the bow, just matched to each other andapproximately matched to the bow. The most overlooked aspect of tuning? IMHO it's nock straightness. When I got a tool to precisely measure nock straighness, my league scores increased by almost 10 points. I won't tell you the exact numbers, but let's just say that I still have an opportunity to demonstrate the value of self coaching;) In Roscoe's first post of this tread, I don't think that a half turn would account for the improvement in group size. Perhaps he hit on a sweet spot in his draw length. That may account for the improvement, but I don't think that much improvement can be attributed to fine tuning arrow spine unless there is something else going on with the bow, such as fletching contact. I do agree with WKB Todd and Tfox about the loose nut on the release.:D This thread was titled "bow tuneing" , I guess most have included arrows with that , myself included ,but It definatly did not say anything about form . I also agree with Alenread , I tell people to shoot arrows as close to identical as you can posably make them . |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Come to Len's tuning seminar. I'll be happy to show it to you there. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
LittleChief,
There are tools like the one I'm attaching the link to out there for aligning the nock that do not require a $200 seminar to purchase. I would think that either one straightens the nock in the process. http://www.archerynocktools.com/ Apple nock alignment tool http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=515 |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
ORIGINAL: davepjr71 LittleChief, There are tools like the one I'm attaching the link to out there for aligning the nock that do not require a $200 seminar to purchase. I would think that either one straightens the nock in the process. http://www.archerynocktools.com/ Apple nock alignment tool http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=515 |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Your welcome. We're all here todiscuss something we love to doand help each other out.
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RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Dave,
Yes, thanks for the info. I'm having trouble getting my broadheads to hit consistently. There are onlytwo pro shops in the area, and now I don't have much faith in either one. As far as getting advice from Bass Pro, the only other choice in the area....[:@]. Yesterday I was told that it was critical to have the broadhead blades aligned with the fletching, AND that I could use a rubber 'O" ring to accomplish this!!! I ain't no rocket scientist, but I know better than that. |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Those are excellent nock & vane alignment tools. I've never seen the one from Archery Nock Tools before. That looks like a much better tool than the Apple tool that I have.
The tool that I am referring to straightens the nocks. Usually I can get to a 0.002 total runout. Most arrows start with about 0.012. Some better, some worse. Turning the nocks sometimes helps, but not always. The nock straightening tool is not currently a part of Len's seminar. In fact when I described it to Len, he was a little dubious about it's effectiveness. I'm just trying to drum up a little more interest in the seminar. Sorry if I have offended you. Allen ORIGINAL: davepjr71 LittleChief, There are tools like the one I'm attaching the link to out there for aligning the nock that do not require a $200 seminar to purchase. I would think that either one straightens the nock in the process. http://www.archerynocktools.com/ Apple nock alignment tool http://www.fsdiscountarchery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=515 |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
Allen,
No offense taken. What exact tool do you have though? |
RE: Most Overlooked Aspect of Bow Tuning?
I had to do the same thing to mine a year ago and i was amazed on how much it helped.
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