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-   -   Speaking of physics - STS thought (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/188632-speaking-physics-sts-thought.html)

quiksilver 04-17-2007 09:34 AM

Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I see these String suppressors are all the rage right now. Everybody's gotta have one. Ok.

Watch the video on this thread before responding. It's maybe 1/3 of the way down the page...
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=29975&highlight=slow++sts

Now, let'stalk about symmetry and shock. To totally eliminate vibration, every force must be equally offset by an equal and opposite reaction. Simple enough, right.

Take your bow, hold it in your hand, and use your free hand to jar the bottom limb. The whole bow jumps and twists and torques, right?

Okay, now imagine that you had three arms. One holding the bow, and the other two jarring both the top limb and the bottom limb at the same time with the exact same amount of force. Now, you'll just feel a uniform recoil, pushing the bow backward, right? It's all about symmetry.

Apply this to the STS. Watching this video, it's really clear that the whole STS concept is asymmetrical. You have a string slap on the bottom half of your bow, with nothing to mirror that impact on the top half.

The point is: for a perfect vibration dampening system, you need TWO STS's, not ONE. You need one placed on the bottom, and a second one placed at the TOP.

I know that none of the new '07 models are tapped for an STS mount on the top half of the string, but why not?

Watching the video, you can clearly see that the bottom half of the string is quickly arrested, while the top half continues to flap.

I just think that if you had two string suppressors, both placed equidistant from the top and bottom cam, that you would achieve the most optimal shock/recoil reduction.

What do you guys think?

HuntingBry 04-17-2007 11:45 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
QS, I agree with what you are saying, but most guys shoot with a peep so even with the top STS it will not be completely symmetrical becasue of the unbalanced weight. However, I believe that having a second STS would do a great deal to eliminate even more shock as you have said. The question now is how to mount it in a way that is would not interfere with the sights or aiming, because it would almost have to be in the same area as the sights to be equidistant from the limb tips. Very interesting concept though.

quiksilver 04-17-2007 01:51 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I found a picture of a homejob double-sts, and dang if I can't post the pictures.



Matt/TN 04-17-2007 04:03 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
well all this flapping is done so fast. That video elapses in less than .03 of a second I think


davepjr71 04-17-2007 04:25 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Fran,

The point you are making is the same one that Len from Maryland made to me when I asked him what he thought of the STS on the Vectrix.He stated that you would need 2 spaced equally on the string to get the full benefit.

The Vectrix I shot did not seem to vibrate any less than the Trykon, Allegiance, or the 2 Matthews I shot.

archer58 04-17-2007 08:37 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
It is obviously not possible to dampen ALL the motion of the string with just 1 STS. However thinking in terms of other vibration dampening accessories, it does not do thewhole job.The designers probably knew this.I think their intention was to improve , not totally eliminate string oscillation.
That's a good thought abouta top STS.
I would suggest you RUN to the patent office w/ your design.

gibblet 04-18-2007 05:18 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
arrows gone mate - doesn't matter what happens after that. i do also notice its gone about 1" after brace height, and if you watch closely the nock doesn't get thrown up or down at all - i'd say that's pretty good. what you're saying may be even better if it can be accomplished.

Len in Maryland 04-18-2007 06:53 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Had a customer comein Monday who wanted to buy a new bow. He asked the age-old question, "What do you shoot?" As usual, I refused to answer that question and wanted him to try as many as he wanted and make that decision on his own. I do, however, answer technical questions about all the bows/designs.

I explained in detail about the Hoyt design and in particular the STS style string dampener. I told him the positives and negatives of the dampener and he especially was concerned aboutmy statementsconcerningnoise generation which has been experienced on some bows. He asked if the unit could be removed and I immediately did so.

When he shot the bow without the unit, the difference in vibration wasjustslightly more,but the noisechange was noticeable. He couldn't hear it that muchwhile shooting, but when I shot the bow with him listening, he said it was much more quiet with it off.

He bought the bow and wants it off. He then asked me why I didn't take it off all the Hoyts since it was definitely more noisey with it on. Good question.;)

Is the answer that some people want a littleless vibration but are willing to accept more noise???

newman1 04-18-2007 11:14 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I say most of new bows today are quiet enough already.Unless they can make a bow absolutely quiet,I say forget about all this aftermarket crap.Get a decent weight arrow and go hunting!!!!!PROBLEM SOLVED.:D

quiksilver 04-18-2007 12:00 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Archer - you can't patent that. All it would be is an extra hole tapped into the upper riser so that a shooter could install a second STS if they so desired. Obviously, the manufacturers would have to reconfigure their riser so as to have a second hole tapped without compromising structural integrity.

Since no bowsareconfigured toaccept a second STS unit, it's a roadblock to testing it out. Just a design change that I think would benefit a lot of people.

in da woods 04-18-2007 12:31 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Len, here's a question regarding noise from the STS. I've heard that the "STS" brand supressor maybe a little noisier compared to the suppressor made by MeanV. Igot the one fromMeanV, & when shooting myTribute next to an identical Tribute, same rest, poundage, etc. the other shooternoticed that my bow was quieter. Could it be the rubber stopper used by Hoyt that may be producing noise. I did notice that the rubber on myCSS is very pliable. What do u think?

HuntingEd 04-18-2007 01:31 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Len, Wheres your shop??? Im looking for a more local proshop that i can trust. Im only bout 45 min from balt.

I've found the STS "slap" noise to be worse to the shooter and anyone standing behind the bow, as it reflects backwards. Used a video camera to record the shot and its a lot quieter from the front.

Also, Has anyone ever tried putting a cat whisker (fabric type) at the point of impact?? Ive got one of those rubber rings used between the nock and release at my point of impact w/ the STS and it helped a lot. Im thinking a cat whisker would be an amazing noise damper. (gonna try this!)

davepjr71 04-18-2007 01:31 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
How about a cable slide/STS system for the top?

excalibur43 04-18-2007 01:32 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Mathews has already taken care of that with their string dampners.An added STS added to pick up any over ride by the string that may be left, is unnoticeable as far as unequal shock.

quiksilver 04-18-2007 01:50 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Look at this picture, and it might change your opinion.


doublelunginem 04-18-2007 03:16 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Looking at the pic of the Switchback just after releasing the arrow, the string seems to be going 2.5" past it's resting position.....

Could those 2.5" be considered powerstroke???

In other words, would 2 suppressors or even the one suppressor on Hoyt's bows actually be slowing the bow down? If you had a suppressor to cut that movement down to an 1" past the resting position, would that slow the bow down 10 fps just as dropping an inch off your draw length does???

Just thinking.....

davepjr71 04-18-2007 03:44 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
The only way to totally stop correct the issue would be to install 2 V-channels lined with suppression material along the length of the string above and below the knock point and allow enough room for the fletching and arrow to pass thru. The channels would be mounted on at the end with spring steel to allow the string to move forward a little when the string hits it so that it does not try and throw the bow forward out of your hand.

Howler 04-18-2007 04:32 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 

In other words, would 2 suppressors or even the one suppressor on Hoyt's bows actually be slowing the bow down? If you had a suppressor to cut that movement down to an 1" past the resting position, would that slow the bow down 10 fps just as dropping an inch off your draw length does???
Quite contrair, once the bow has passed the resting point, it is no longer producing forward energy, and that's why by installing an STS type dampner, some guys actually see a slight increase in arrow speed, breaks the arrow away from the string quick and clean!

HuntingEd 04-18-2007 06:42 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I gained 8 fps simply by adding the STS.

MDBUCKHUNTER 04-18-2007 06:50 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I have an STS on my Mathews SBXT and I like it alot.

Like most pieces of archery equipment, you need to play around with it a bit before you can find the best possible position on your bow.

Mine happens to be about 1/32" to 1/16" off the string.

I have my string served in that location to eliminate any wear and tare that might take place.

After a year of shooting with it, I am happy so far.

Len in Maryland 04-18-2007 06:54 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
in da woods:
The noise level depends on more than who makes the rubber. Length of draw, weight of arrow, angle of string, type of string material, ata, tuneand a bunch of other items go into the formula for noise. I've heard them on Tributes and some were quiet anda fewwere not. It is really a case by case basis. But, those who sell them only tell you about the good things.

I had a guy from out of townask me one day what I thought of these devices. I proceeded to tell him the good and then the bad. After all, this is how I handle all my customers. He got mad when I told him about the bad and said that I was negative about everything. I told him not to ask me a question if he couldn't handle the truth.

The sounds that you get can be everything from a slap to a dull thud. The frequency can be of varying levels. Can DL make a difference? You bet it can. Can arrow weight make a difference? Again, the answer is yes.

HuntingEd:
First. you've got a PM. As far as adding cat whiskers, it might work; but, you're now back to adding weight to the string and it will be more centralized which might make one whisker detrimental the same as having two of them towards the axles. Something to think about and test. Good luck and let me know how it works.


excalibur43 04-19-2007 05:03 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 

ORIGINAL: quiksilver
It looks like to me that he doesn't have the STS anywhere near his string, thus, it is doing nothing for his bow. It should be against or just slightly off of your string at the resting position of the bow.Maybe not totally, but almosteliminating the string travel past the resting point. This will give you a smooth quick detachment from the nock, and in most cases, adds speed to your setup. I shoot a Switchback XT with an STS, and it shoots quiet, smooth and fast. I personally have seen no ill effects from the STS.
This person's STS is so far forward, that the string is in full forward position, and still isn't in contact with the STS, which should be positioned even with his string suppressors, but it looks like it's a good 2-3" in front of them!
Look at this picture, and it might change your opinion.


Arthur P 04-19-2007 05:19 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
The idea of dual string stops has been around formore than20 years, Quicksliver. This is the Bear Delta V, the original speed bow.


Howler 04-19-2007 07:15 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Maybe I'm not seeing it correct either, BUT excalibur, I don't see that the archer even has an STS of any kind on his bow in that pic. Looks like a couple of stabilizers, but no STS!

quiksilver 04-19-2007 07:16 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Good call Arthur. Just like dropaway rests were tinkered around with many moons ago, the dual string dampener was probably a good idea that got lost in translation. That Delta V is a bow that I've always wanted. I have a thing for bizarre old bows, and the Delta is one that I'd love to get my hands on. That one in the picture isn't yours is it?

Excalibur: There is no STS installed on that matthews bow in the picture - just the factory dampeners attached by the cam and the wheel. I think you're either looking at the roller guard or the rear counter-weights on the guy's stabilizer. They actually are sticking out to either side. Now that I look at it, I guess that picture is a little deceiving.

Arthur P 04-19-2007 07:55 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
No, it's not mine, but I'd like to have one too. I got the pic from archeryhistory.com

I did find an old Rigid bow from the late 70's in a pawn shop here awhile back. I think it was the first bow that used what they now call "parallel limb technology." Everything old is new again. ;)

nodog 04-19-2007 12:41 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Don't have one and based on some comments don't think I want one. Thanks for the info guys.

excalibur43 04-19-2007 06:56 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Sorry. Looked Like an STS. I think it is a stabilizer.

jmbuckhunter 04-21-2007 02:21 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I don't think I want one of those on my bow either. It looks like the arrow is gone by the time it is stopping any shock. To me it seems like you are only asking for problems with string wear.

HuntingBry 04-23-2007 08:44 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Len, as usual, a very insightful post. I have found that as you have stated it is very subjective on how well the suppressor products work. Not just from one model bow to another, or even one set up to another, but literally from bow-to-bow. I have heard of situations where there will be almost identical set ups and guys will have differing experiences with string suppressors. What it boils down to is you have to try it yourself and adjust it to find the sweet spot. In some cases it may not work with your set up. If it does, it can be a nice addition, but by no means are they necessary. I personally like using them a lot, but if I got a bow that it would not work with I would be fine shooting without it.

glockman55 04-23-2007 05:26 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I've got one on my Legacy and like how it feels and shoots,( and I'm not saying that because I have a bunch of $$ into it, I made my own)Look at a slo-mo video with out an sts on it, the string just about slaps the riser. Unless you've tried one your missing out, Make up your own mind,they are not for everyone.

Len in Maryland 04-23-2007 07:48 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
HuntingBrymade a good post about the variety of applications and the varying results. I have never said it didnt' work. It does reduce vibration in most applications and prevents string slap to those who are usually over-bowed.

The problem I find with many products is that everyone wants to tell you how great theyperform with their bow, but fail to understand, or don't want to understand or hear negatives. Oh well, I've been accused of being negative before.;) My customers don't like some of the things I tell them, but they know that my evaluations are complete and that I can produce the data/examples to their satisfaction.

Now here is a new trick. I've been playing with string enhancements for about a week now and I think I've discovered some neat ways to cut down on string noise andbow vibration. And it won't cost you very much at all. I plan on introducing it to my Seminar attendees and let them play with the idea a while so that it can be tested extensively. I can tell you that testing on a Guardian has been very interesting. We'll use the Guardianand maybe some of the attendee bows to test my ideas.:)


dandbuck 04-24-2007 11:28 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
Len
First of all, thanks for returning to the Forums!
Now, i was thinking, you have me "on the edge of my seat" with regards to your recent tuning comments. Anyway you can get some video footage of your seminar and produce a DVD for those of us too far away to attend? I'm sure there are more than a few of us who would be interested in that right guys?
Dandbuck

HuntingBry 04-24-2007 02:04 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 

We'll use the Guardianand maybe some of the attendee bows to test my ideas.:)
Wow, if you've found a way to significantly reduce noise on the Guardian that is something. I can't wait to hear what this idea is. Unfortunately, I can't attend the seminar, or I'd know sooner and get to test it myself.[:@]

Len in Maryland 04-24-2007 06:41 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
The noise and vibration came from the loss of a string leach andfromsome add-on devices. It's funny how you begin to call something noisey that you would have NEVER heard on other bow designs.;)

It's not a totally proven concept yet. It looks very promising, but like anything else, extensive testing is required.

Howler 04-25-2007 05:29 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 

Now here is a new trick.
Well, cough it up. Inquireing minds are waiting. I, for another, won't be able to attend your Seminar, so please let us in on the new trick!

passthru79 04-25-2007 06:13 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
My Cardiac came with one from the factory and that is the first bow Ive shot with one on it. I dont know if its the bow or the suppressor, or a combination of the two. All I can say is as a whole Im very impressed.

glockman55 04-28-2007 09:39 AM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I read some comments on, I don't think I'll try that new fangled thing on my bow..LOL remember when we all said the same thing about the compound bow, or the mechanical release, or even those junk carbon arrows. To each his own.

PABuck_HNTR 04-28-2007 02:48 PM

RE: Speaking of physics - STS thought
 
I like what they've done to both bows I've tried them on. But like said before to each his own.


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