HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
12-13-2002, 07:40 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Miami FL USA
Posts: 208
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Why don't we wait and see what GK really has to offer!!!! I think the point here is that certain folks are endorsing a new GK product that they have not tested. That makes any opinions valueless until the product is tested, other than the fact GK produces some fine products. Regardless of who the manufacturer is, they all have problems. Its my experience that it is not that a company has a problem, its how its handled that makes a difference.
Aim Hard!
Edited by - FLHunter on 12/13/2002 08:42:19
Aim Hard!
Edited by - FLHunter on 12/13/2002 08:42:19
12-13-2002, 08:18 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: MO USA
Posts: 69
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
I wouldn't mind seeing the new rest. Sounds OK, but I'm having a hard time thinking it's really an "all-new" concept. It's more likely to be a refined concept, but I'll hold judgement until I see one.
Personally, I won't buy another rest unless it's signifactly better than the MZE I've been using. My bows are set up for hunting, and hunting only. The MZE is fantastic for hunting, with it's "scoop arm" eliminating any issues with the arrow falling off the rest.
From the bow being able to hang on a treestand hanger with the arrows on the string, to drawing the same bow and not having to look at the rest, the MZE is the best thing for a hunting bow I've personally used in the last 15 years.
If the GFK rest does all that and more....I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
MOCraig
Personally, I won't buy another rest unless it's signifactly better than the MZE I've been using. My bows are set up for hunting, and hunting only. The MZE is fantastic for hunting, with it's "scoop arm" eliminating any issues with the arrow falling off the rest.
From the bow being able to hang on a treestand hanger with the arrows on the string, to drawing the same bow and not having to look at the rest, the MZE is the best thing for a hunting bow I've personally used in the last 15 years.
If the GFK rest does all that and more....I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
MOCraig
12-13-2002, 08:34 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
I just re-read Len's first post in this thread. To me all he said was-
1- It can't be the world's first bow driven rest because they already exist.
2- He'll have to waith until the AMO show to see it.
3- He hopes it is a winner...
Does anyone else read it differently?
It is clear who started the mess in this thread. It immediately followed Len's first post and was filled with unfounded accusations. I for one can't wait for Len to try this rest out and give us the UN-BIASED low down.
1- It can't be the world's first bow driven rest because they already exist.
2- He'll have to waith until the AMO show to see it.
3- He hopes it is a winner...
Does anyone else read it differently?
It is clear who started the mess in this thread. It immediately followed Len's first post and was filled with unfounded accusations. I for one can't wait for Len to try this rest out and give us the UN-BIASED low down.
12-13-2002, 09:39 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lingle WY USA
Posts: 527
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
I can't wait to see how it works....No linkages, strings, or cables..Doesn't use inertia or recoil or the arrow to drive it.....Doesn't use a spring because it is bow-driven.... I'm stuck trying to figure out where else a bow produces energy?????????
"What we do in this life echos an eternity"
"What we do in this life echos an eternity"
12-13-2002, 09:46 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Apparently, it's magic, as anyone knows a good magician never shares his secrets.... 
I too am eager to see what it is and how it works. I've sold myself on a new rest, just waiting to see that the '03 crop turns up after the show. This one has my attention..
I too am eager to see what it is and how it works. I've sold myself on a new rest, just waiting to see that the '03 crop turns up after the show. This one has my attention..
12-13-2002, 10:27 AM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Moonge: You and the GKF "Brotherhood" apparently really hate it when anyone disagrees with you. Otherwise, why would you guys have your belts so tight? AGAIN, if you and others will kindly get the facts straight, this whole mess would be over.
It was Looking4Xs, from the other forum, who called out my name with INCORRECT information in his first post when he wrote, "Len, I agree Muzzy do make some great products, and so you should be proud to be associated, I know I would if I were...but I'm not...sorry. Muzzy and GKF are competitors in the same market...we all feel loyal to our respectve products and as such good on us...thats what makes us humans after all." I approached him the same way I approached IL-Cornfed when he stated something as fact which was questionable.
The whole "Brotherhood" can attack me and that still won't change factual information. I guess the fact that I published my findings that found faults with one product out of a company's many products makes me an ogre in your minds. In reality, I don't like certain other products that GKF makes but keep that under personal preference. Unless I can produce factual data, I keep quiet. My personal preferences are just that - personal.
When you state, "..you slap my face i'll slap back type of thing when it comes to putting something down I like.", that indicates to me that you really have a hard time in life with criticism. And then when you state "I could care less about all your facts & findings,...", it only exemplifies an apparent sense of narrow-mindedness. Sorry for your inconvenience!
It was Looking4Xs, from the other forum, who called out my name with INCORRECT information in his first post when he wrote, "Len, I agree Muzzy do make some great products, and so you should be proud to be associated, I know I would if I were...but I'm not...sorry. Muzzy and GKF are competitors in the same market...we all feel loyal to our respectve products and as such good on us...thats what makes us humans after all." I approached him the same way I approached IL-Cornfed when he stated something as fact which was questionable.
The whole "Brotherhood" can attack me and that still won't change factual information. I guess the fact that I published my findings that found faults with one product out of a company's many products makes me an ogre in your minds. In reality, I don't like certain other products that GKF makes but keep that under personal preference. Unless I can produce factual data, I keep quiet. My personal preferences are just that - personal.
When you state, "..you slap my face i'll slap back type of thing when it comes to putting something down I like.", that indicates to me that you really have a hard time in life with criticism. And then when you state "I could care less about all your facts & findings,...", it only exemplifies an apparent sense of narrow-mindedness. Sorry for your inconvenience!
12-13-2002, 10:35 AM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Norwich Norfolk United Kingdom
Posts: 5
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Hi Len
Thanks for your reply.. I'd like to re address some of what you have written.
POINT 1:
In your words "Let me explain to you that I seem to be in the center of this turmoil because I tested the Mirage and found, IMO, design flaws which I also attribute to inadequate testing in an attempt to rush a product to the market. Therefore, I must disagree with you when you stated "GKF wouldn't put their name behind something which isn't fully tested in all conditions"... now I would like to say... the testing you did and any faults found were 'In your opinion', ok thats not a problem... but also every manufacturer will continue a process of refinments to products..I know as I've been involved with R&D for many years, and not just in archery.
POINT 2:
Since visuals of their products seem to be a secret, how does someone so far away get so intimately involved. Again, where are the facts/pictures?... what has my location got to do with anything? ... I get to test and work with companies sometime because I live away from prying eyes... also sorry but any pictures/fact I may or may not have are not for release, sorry its that R&D issue again.. thats GKF's job
POINT 3:
." The difference between us is that I DO NOT have any sponsors. If you checked to find out that "... Moonge and Cornfed do not nor have not worked for GKF..", then should we understand that you have an intimate relationship with GKF and that probably they are one of your sponsors?... Yes I'm sponsored by GKF to name but one...yes I do have a good working relationship with my sponsors...all of them...and I have made checks prior to that statement.
POINT 4:
I AM NOT associated in any way with Muzzy. I am not a shooter like you, but a humble shop owner who strives to get a better understanding of available products. I have tested the Muzzy product extensively and, like I previously stated, prodded Muzzy about some minor improvements that I would like to see. I made comments about the faults that I found in the GKF Mirage rest (and only that rest because many of their rests are excellent) and got nothing but flack because there are some in the "GKF Brotherhood" who took offense.... sorry but I maybe wrong... being a shop owner does mean that you are associated and from what I have been able to tell you are very pro Muzzy.... I have no problem with that... I'm pro GKF...so we are alike But even though I am pro 'X' company I still realise that most is subjective reasoning and personal... thats why I won't say X is better that Y, each has its own merits.
I'm in this sport as I love it, not to make money though I wish I could.... so lets not start any ill feelings anywhere...life is just too short and if you're at the AMO or Vegas..look me up and we'll have a chat and a beer.
Shoot well
Gary
UK Magnock Pro Team Manager and Member
http://www.magnock.com
Thanks for your reply.. I'd like to re address some of what you have written.
POINT 1:
In your words "Let me explain to you that I seem to be in the center of this turmoil because I tested the Mirage and found, IMO, design flaws which I also attribute to inadequate testing in an attempt to rush a product to the market. Therefore, I must disagree with you when you stated "GKF wouldn't put their name behind something which isn't fully tested in all conditions"... now I would like to say... the testing you did and any faults found were 'In your opinion', ok thats not a problem... but also every manufacturer will continue a process of refinments to products..I know as I've been involved with R&D for many years, and not just in archery.
POINT 2:
Since visuals of their products seem to be a secret, how does someone so far away get so intimately involved. Again, where are the facts/pictures?... what has my location got to do with anything? ... I get to test and work with companies sometime because I live away from prying eyes... also sorry but any pictures/fact I may or may not have are not for release, sorry its that R&D issue again.. thats GKF's job
POINT 3:
." The difference between us is that I DO NOT have any sponsors. If you checked to find out that "... Moonge and Cornfed do not nor have not worked for GKF..", then should we understand that you have an intimate relationship with GKF and that probably they are one of your sponsors?... Yes I'm sponsored by GKF to name but one...yes I do have a good working relationship with my sponsors...all of them...and I have made checks prior to that statement.
POINT 4:
I AM NOT associated in any way with Muzzy. I am not a shooter like you, but a humble shop owner who strives to get a better understanding of available products. I have tested the Muzzy product extensively and, like I previously stated, prodded Muzzy about some minor improvements that I would like to see. I made comments about the faults that I found in the GKF Mirage rest (and only that rest because many of their rests are excellent) and got nothing but flack because there are some in the "GKF Brotherhood" who took offense.... sorry but I maybe wrong... being a shop owner does mean that you are associated and from what I have been able to tell you are very pro Muzzy.... I have no problem with that... I'm pro GKF...so we are alike
But even though I am pro 'X' company I still realise that most is subjective reasoning and personal... thats why I won't say X is better that Y, each has its own merits.I'm in this sport as I love it, not to make money though I wish I could.... so lets not start any ill feelings anywhere...life is just too short and if you're at the AMO or Vegas..look me up and we'll have a chat and a beer.
Shoot well
Gary
UK Magnock Pro Team Manager and Member
http://www.magnock.com
12-13-2002, 11:20 AM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Gary: You seem like a reasonable person so I'd like to offer some clarifying remarks.
Counterpoint 1: Some of the problems I encountered were when the Rep first showed me the product. We actually called the factory and they said they were correcting those problems as we spoke. Other testing I did was soon after the product came to market. Some of the issues that I addressed were corrected by GFK; but, others were somewhat 'blown off'. I don't want to get into the reasons; but, let's just say that the change may have proved to be too extensive at the time. There is a point in design/manufacturing when you have to cut the umbilical cord. Finally, the testing I did was not 'opinionated', but based on comparative analysis to like products and structured test criteria.
Counterpoint 2: None. Point taken and accepted.
Counterpoint 3: None. Thanks for the clarification.
Counterpoint 4: Being a shop owner really means that I have a relationship with every manufacturer at one time or another. It is my job to evaluate various products and to past my evaluations along to my customers when they ask for them. Yes, I may appear to be 'pro MZE' because I have found it to be a great hunting rest. The popularity of the MZE and the positive feedback that we get is proof. I do, however, try to help companies improve their products by giving them feedback from my testing and providing field reports from my customers. I won't say "X is better than Y" either. I have never said that Muzzy is better than GKF or vise versa. That would be absurd. I will, however, share my test data with customers/people who ask. I will also temper some of that data in hopes that it does not come across as too curse. In the case in point, it seems that no matter what I said, the "Brotherhood" would take extreme offense to it. And, I'll say it AGAIN, GKF makes some fine products and I carry most of them on my shelves. As far as the MZE, you should note that I posted a new topic with some corrective action comments about the MZE. This was done prior to me reading your post and should indicate that I try to maintain an unbiased approach to products.
There are no ill feelings on this end. I would be glad to meet you at the AMO Show and chat a while. It would probably be easier for you to look me up. I'll be giving two seminars - one on Friday morning and another on Saturday morning. Please take the time to look me up.
And thanks for some understanding in this matter. Good shooting.
Counterpoint 1: Some of the problems I encountered were when the Rep first showed me the product. We actually called the factory and they said they were correcting those problems as we spoke. Other testing I did was soon after the product came to market. Some of the issues that I addressed were corrected by GFK; but, others were somewhat 'blown off'. I don't want to get into the reasons; but, let's just say that the change may have proved to be too extensive at the time. There is a point in design/manufacturing when you have to cut the umbilical cord. Finally, the testing I did was not 'opinionated', but based on comparative analysis to like products and structured test criteria.
Counterpoint 2: None. Point taken and accepted.
Counterpoint 3: None. Thanks for the clarification.
Counterpoint 4: Being a shop owner really means that I have a relationship with every manufacturer at one time or another. It is my job to evaluate various products and to past my evaluations along to my customers when they ask for them. Yes, I may appear to be 'pro MZE' because I have found it to be a great hunting rest. The popularity of the MZE and the positive feedback that we get is proof. I do, however, try to help companies improve their products by giving them feedback from my testing and providing field reports from my customers. I won't say "X is better than Y" either. I have never said that Muzzy is better than GKF or vise versa. That would be absurd. I will, however, share my test data with customers/people who ask. I will also temper some of that data in hopes that it does not come across as too curse. In the case in point, it seems that no matter what I said, the "Brotherhood" would take extreme offense to it. And, I'll say it AGAIN, GKF makes some fine products and I carry most of them on my shelves. As far as the MZE, you should note that I posted a new topic with some corrective action comments about the MZE. This was done prior to me reading your post and should indicate that I try to maintain an unbiased approach to products.
There are no ill feelings on this end. I would be glad to meet you at the AMO Show and chat a while. It would probably be easier for you to look me up. I'll be giving two seminars - one on Friday morning and another on Saturday morning. Please take the time to look me up.
And thanks for some understanding in this matter. Good shooting.
12-13-2002, 11:36 AM
#29
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati oh USA
Posts: 626
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Len how do you handle criticism? you hate it when anyone says anything negative at all to you and or your opinion & you feel you have to keep fighting to get your point in. in fact you are one of the ones that started this by going into long detail how you feel some things in the past have been design wrong by GKF & how the MZE is such a great product, etc. etc.
My point is this was an original point to just get the word out, then you feel you have to come on preach your MZE talk & then bash the Mirage and then start in on a product you have not seen.
I took that as insulting, sorry.......
My point is this was an original point to just get the word out, then you feel you have to come on preach your MZE talk & then bash the Mirage and then start in on a product you have not seen.
I took that as insulting, sorry.......
12-13-2002, 01:11 PM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Miami FL USA
Posts: 208
RE: HOT, GKF 2003 line-up!!!!
Moonage,
You need to reread things, no where did Len bash GK! He simply pointed out problems with GK's Mirage. Yes, Len thinks the Muzzy ZE is a good hunting rest, especially for stalking. Does it make the ZE the best rest for every application? Probably not! I personally shoot a GK rest and the MZE ZE and I'm pleased with both companies products. I personally can validate that Len has pointed out improvements to Muzzy to their rest as well. This not a personal thing for Len other than he feels very responsible to his customers in providing them with good products. The only way to do this is to field test, which he does religiously. If you find fault with this validation of the products he sells, then so be it. I think your anger is misguided and that you do not debate well taking a different points of view personally. Why would you find criticism of a GK Product insulting to you? When someone tests a ZE and finds it is not the rest for them, I haven't heard anyone crying foul and saying its insulting. Or is that different? Get Real!
Aim Hard!
You need to reread things, no where did Len bash GK! He simply pointed out problems with GK's Mirage. Yes, Len thinks the Muzzy ZE is a good hunting rest, especially for stalking. Does it make the ZE the best rest for every application? Probably not! I personally shoot a GK rest and the MZE ZE and I'm pleased with both companies products. I personally can validate that Len has pointed out improvements to Muzzy to their rest as well. This not a personal thing for Len other than he feels very responsible to his customers in providing them with good products. The only way to do this is to field test, which he does religiously. If you find fault with this validation of the products he sells, then so be it. I think your anger is misguided and that you do not debate well taking a different points of view personally. Why would you find criticism of a GK Product insulting to you? When someone tests a ZE and finds it is not the rest for them, I haven't heard anyone crying foul and saying its insulting. Or is that different? Get Real!
Aim Hard!