Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
11-15-2002, 04:06 PM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
JeffB-
Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....
But---
Let me make one thing clear--- I am not all THAT old, and know that altho I respect your opinions normally, that you have no higher knowledge in ANY Archery category than I unless you have over 35 years experience, and I absolutely take offense with anyone calling any of my comments "BS". You seriously want to insinuate that I am a liar on a public messageboard? You may want to re-think that position. Take a few minutes and really THINK about that. I don't think you have enough technical qualifications to try and talk DOWN to me Jeff,(no matter how many "followers" you gain here) and I do take serious offense to that. You certainly do not want to bash heads with me archery-wise (or any other wise for that matter) for at least another 10 years or so IMO, and I figure you owe me an apology for insinuating that I am a liar. Everyone can state an opinion, and altho you may prove some people wrong, have no right to insinuate that anyone is a liar or tell them their statements are "BS". You also got my post way out of context, I could care less if we have bows that reach 500FPS, and will welcome them when and if we get there, however I do not think John Q Public needs to be force-fed all of the garbage about "how accurate" a 350fps bow with a 5.25" (OK, now 5.5) is when it certainly is somewhat of a "stretch". (Don't forget, I shoot all of these bows too. When I can get out of my "wheelchair". <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>)
I do not care what name is out there on these individual bows. I pick on any of them if I feel they deserve it. Heck, it could even be a Horizon instead of Bowtech as they are basically the same design Kev used when with them! (Then maybe you wouldn't be so defensive?) Or it could be a PSE, Mathews, Hoyt, (sorry Frank) yes, even a Merlin!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Doesn't matter, I am going to call it as I see it, based exclusively on my experiences over the past few decades. I don't pull punches and sugar-coat things, if you cannot handle that, well maybe you're in the wrong sport, sport! Really, just because it has the name Bowtech on it is a non-issue. They are the only ones left that REALLY focus on speed now tho.(and put ads in magazines stating so!) Most everyone else has just settled into their progression, without all of the hoopla. Many do not even post IBO speed rating anymore. I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same, and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game. This year it's 350, three years from now,(maybe less) it'll be 400. Then 450. Then 500. It's a never-ending cycle, so why not just shoot the bows that are forgiving and wait for the industry to catch up material and tech-wise instead of with lower brace heights and radical cams and prestressed limbs? You'll like the way you shoot much better if you do, I guarantee it. Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference! (and won't shoot any better if they conmtinue with the 5.5, either) Better archers can tell immediately, but they also can control it much better also. Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.
As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.
I am not aware of any statements made lately by myself that would be cause for "undue alarm" or justification for insinuating that I am a liar and my comments are "BS".
I never stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. And, I also stated that Bowtech has realized this and has taken steps to increase the brace on the BK2 to help with such forgiveness. This is a bash on the emphasis on speed, not any manufacturer! You want me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!
You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa". You guys can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge, not rebel against it simply because it doesn't fit your personal agenda or loyalties! It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post. We've paid our dues, and you up and coming guys have not yet earned the right to be "calling out" any of us, no matter how much you "think" you know. Calling it as I see it, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 17:41:33
Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....
But---
Let me make one thing clear--- I am not all THAT old, and know that altho I respect your opinions normally, that you have no higher knowledge in ANY Archery category than I unless you have over 35 years experience, and I absolutely take offense with anyone calling any of my comments "BS". You seriously want to insinuate that I am a liar on a public messageboard? You may want to re-think that position. Take a few minutes and really THINK about that. I don't think you have enough technical qualifications to try and talk DOWN to me Jeff,(no matter how many "followers" you gain here) and I do take serious offense to that. You certainly do not want to bash heads with me archery-wise (or any other wise for that matter) for at least another 10 years or so IMO, and I figure you owe me an apology for insinuating that I am a liar. Everyone can state an opinion, and altho you may prove some people wrong, have no right to insinuate that anyone is a liar or tell them their statements are "BS". You also got my post way out of context, I could care less if we have bows that reach 500FPS, and will welcome them when and if we get there, however I do not think John Q Public needs to be force-fed all of the garbage about "how accurate" a 350fps bow with a 5.25" (OK, now 5.5) is when it certainly is somewhat of a "stretch". (Don't forget, I shoot all of these bows too. When I can get out of my "wheelchair". <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>)
I do not care what name is out there on these individual bows. I pick on any of them if I feel they deserve it. Heck, it could even be a Horizon instead of Bowtech as they are basically the same design Kev used when with them! (Then maybe you wouldn't be so defensive?) Or it could be a PSE, Mathews, Hoyt, (sorry Frank) yes, even a Merlin!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Doesn't matter, I am going to call it as I see it, based exclusively on my experiences over the past few decades. I don't pull punches and sugar-coat things, if you cannot handle that, well maybe you're in the wrong sport, sport! Really, just because it has the name Bowtech on it is a non-issue. They are the only ones left that REALLY focus on speed now tho.(and put ads in magazines stating so!) Most everyone else has just settled into their progression, without all of the hoopla. Many do not even post IBO speed rating anymore. I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same, and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game. This year it's 350, three years from now,(maybe less) it'll be 400. Then 450. Then 500. It's a never-ending cycle, so why not just shoot the bows that are forgiving and wait for the industry to catch up material and tech-wise instead of with lower brace heights and radical cams and prestressed limbs? You'll like the way you shoot much better if you do, I guarantee it. Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference! (and won't shoot any better if they conmtinue with the 5.5, either) Better archers can tell immediately, but they also can control it much better also. Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.
As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.
I am not aware of any statements made lately by myself that would be cause for "undue alarm" or justification for insinuating that I am a liar and my comments are "BS".
I never stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. And, I also stated that Bowtech has realized this and has taken steps to increase the brace on the BK2 to help with such forgiveness. This is a bash on the emphasis on speed, not any manufacturer! You want me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!
You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa". You guys can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge, not rebel against it simply because it doesn't fit your personal agenda or loyalties! It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post. We've paid our dues, and you up and coming guys have not yet earned the right to be "calling out" any of us, no matter how much you "think" you know. Calling it as I see it, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 17:41:33
11-15-2002, 06:19 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
JeffB-
Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see it as face off.I see your comments regarding Bowtech uneccessary, ignorant and rather blatant lately. Considering another poster basically typed the same thing before I even finished mine, might be a hint that I am not the only one who feels the same way. I doubt quite seriously you (or anyone else) would refrain from "calling me out" were I to make a few jabs at your particular fave brand whenever the chance arrives.
I suggest you check out the "smiley, and wink" I put at the end of the post. It seems we are a bit touchy, eh? I need impress no-one (except the ladies) nor do I try to. I like to talk about archery,and try to remain positive while disucssing all facets, sharing what I do know (which ain't much), and try to learn about things I do not. You (lately) seem to put down anything that is not your personal favorite, whereas I admit my bias( I like Bowtech if no-one else here noticed). I do not have or feel the need to be part of any "clique", however it seems you quite strongly feel that being part of one is a bad thing, and try to avoid being pigeon-holed at any cost. I'm curious if you would feel the same if many more of the posters here shot "your" particular brand? Then that would be OK?
I nowhere insinuated you are a "liar" unless you refer to my farcical "grandpa" post (in that it's a common thing for our elders to exaggerate stuff). If that is the case YOU are the one who took things out of context. Quite a ways, I might add.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I firmly disagree..it IS different in that you admittedly overstressed and abused equipment to shoot speeds it they were NOT designed to handle. Bows today are engineered to purr along (at least for awhile) at those speeds, and are built to better tolerances by far..even "mediocre" quality bows.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game..<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> As to the way it was 15 years ago? or today? That's what I am getting at. Accuracy is where it's at as I said.However, equipment is also improving to where accuracy and speed are not mutually exclusive, as you often imply in your "how fast it goes past" statement. If I can shoot the same average size group at 280 FPS as I can at 240 I don't see this as a problem. The numbers do not matter.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Who said anything about that? I think we all here know that. In this case Bowtech is producing a faster bow with a brace height you reccomend. Where is the problem here? I know some guys who are great shots with their ultra low brace equipment and oblivious to what brace height is. A guy at my local range shoots a Hoyt "Smoke". He's not very technically oriented as far as archery equipment. He also beats the pants off most of the guys who shoot with him!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Absolutely I agree. So where is the problem? the increased speed? If the brace height is there, then what's your beef?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Didn't sound like it to me... or was your comment just referring to the marketing as a bad thing? I don't understand your direction here..I see as many IBO speeds advertised these days as I ever have.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> And I agree in a general sense as well, but that's the kind of blanket staement I'm talking about. Several posters have commented (including myself) how well their BKII Op2's and P38DC's shoot, compared to many bows with more "forgiving" features. Seems to me that it might be an "exception to the rule", do you concur? Also see my example above about the guy who shoots the Hoyt Smoke.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>nt me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Oooohhh... Let's!!! You pick first! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Again, this has nothing to do with that...nor is anyone (at least I) trying to "knock off grandpa". I'm just curious why with someone with your experience seems to be so stubborn about stuff that might well have changed for the better..it's not just speed or Bowtech...I've seen you comment in a "my way or the highway" manner re: drop away rests...or the obvious: dual cammers. I'm always willing to be positive and look at the best of each bow manufacturer, design, or accessory manufacturer.When you were on Bowtech's staff not that long ago, you seemed very positive about them. I'm just wondering if they did something to piss you off? or vice-versa? I'm serious here. Because in my web wanderings I have seen several older posts (search on the bowsite for example) where you seemed very enthusiastic about them.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Indeed I still do, and did! But It also makes me upset when many of the "old timers" (as you said.. or anyone else for that matter) becomes unable to accept anything "new", by giving us a buttload of reasoning that applied 15, or 30 , or 45 years ago, but MAY or MAY NOT apply today. Some old timers swear carbon arrows suck...they base their experience on the days of old..carbons are HUGELY improved today.Or Drop away rests for example. I've seen you "down" on them in several threads. Yep Keith Barner had one out ages ago and probably before him there was some others..and yep..it was not too good of a design..especially for hunting. But his new one IS good. I realize you question their need, assuming properly tuned shooter and equipment..AS DID I..but I decided to give one a try and see if they had changed in 10 years. And I'm very happy I did, it's a nice rest, and even with a moderately decent "shooter tune" (me) and a good "equpment tune" (my bow), I can see some added forgiveness. That's a plus. we all have our likes and dislikes..but these are the sort of "blanket statemenst" I'm seeing from you recently. Is it "alarming"..no...But I also don't remember you being so "my way or the highway" recently.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Diversity and "rebellion" bring change. Sometimes it's good, sometimes bad.Some folks cannot deal with change (I usually am "change resistant"
I think the real reason many of the great techs don't post because there are alot of closed-minded people on many boards(The Bowsite in particular) who are not willing to listen (which I think most here are)..That works both ways though, and listening and blindly folowing are two different things. Offering a fresh or different perspective is a good thing for all parties involved, it's how we learn. My 3 year old son teaches me new things everyday, and I've got 30 more years of experience on him. Same with Archery. I've seen kids who can whip the pants off guys who have been shooting for decades. I also know 18 year old kids who can strip a bow and put it back together alot faster than I can (and I've done my share). It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality. I'm willing to learn all I can from anybody, but I'm also willing to "call out" a "blanket statement" that I just don't agree with based on my personal experience. My "BS" statement was regarding your implication that Bowtech somehow all of a sudden decided a higher brace height was good. I simply pointed out you were wrong and that they had been building higher brace bows since the beginning (when you were on staff, I might add). If that offends you or makes you think I'm calling you a liar, then that is your perogative, but I think you are being overly defensive and rash.
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:02
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:57
JeffB-
Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see it as face off.I see your comments regarding Bowtech uneccessary, ignorant and rather blatant lately. Considering another poster basically typed the same thing before I even finished mine, might be a hint that I am not the only one who feels the same way. I doubt quite seriously you (or anyone else) would refrain from "calling me out" were I to make a few jabs at your particular fave brand whenever the chance arrives.
I suggest you check out the "smiley, and wink" I put at the end of the post. It seems we are a bit touchy, eh? I need impress no-one (except the ladies) nor do I try to. I like to talk about archery,and try to remain positive while disucssing all facets, sharing what I do know (which ain't much), and try to learn about things I do not. You (lately) seem to put down anything that is not your personal favorite, whereas I admit my bias( I like Bowtech if no-one else here noticed). I do not have or feel the need to be part of any "clique", however it seems you quite strongly feel that being part of one is a bad thing, and try to avoid being pigeon-holed at any cost. I'm curious if you would feel the same if many more of the posters here shot "your" particular brand? Then that would be OK?
I nowhere insinuated you are a "liar" unless you refer to my farcical "grandpa" post (in that it's a common thing for our elders to exaggerate stuff). If that is the case YOU are the one who took things out of context. Quite a ways, I might add.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I firmly disagree..it IS different in that you admittedly overstressed and abused equipment to shoot speeds it they were NOT designed to handle. Bows today are engineered to purr along (at least for awhile) at those speeds, and are built to better tolerances by far..even "mediocre" quality bows.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game..<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> As to the way it was 15 years ago? or today? That's what I am getting at. Accuracy is where it's at as I said.However, equipment is also improving to where accuracy and speed are not mutually exclusive, as you often imply in your "how fast it goes past" statement. If I can shoot the same average size group at 280 FPS as I can at 240 I don't see this as a problem. The numbers do not matter.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Who said anything about that? I think we all here know that. In this case Bowtech is producing a faster bow with a brace height you reccomend. Where is the problem here? I know some guys who are great shots with their ultra low brace equipment and oblivious to what brace height is. A guy at my local range shoots a Hoyt "Smoke". He's not very technically oriented as far as archery equipment. He also beats the pants off most of the guys who shoot with him!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Absolutely I agree. So where is the problem? the increased speed? If the brace height is there, then what's your beef?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Didn't sound like it to me... or was your comment just referring to the marketing as a bad thing? I don't understand your direction here..I see as many IBO speeds advertised these days as I ever have.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> And I agree in a general sense as well, but that's the kind of blanket staement I'm talking about. Several posters have commented (including myself) how well their BKII Op2's and P38DC's shoot, compared to many bows with more "forgiving" features. Seems to me that it might be an "exception to the rule", do you concur? Also see my example above about the guy who shoots the Hoyt Smoke.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>nt me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Oooohhh... Let's!!! You pick first! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Again, this has nothing to do with that...nor is anyone (at least I) trying to "knock off grandpa". I'm just curious why with someone with your experience seems to be so stubborn about stuff that might well have changed for the better..it's not just speed or Bowtech...I've seen you comment in a "my way or the highway" manner re: drop away rests...or the obvious: dual cammers. I'm always willing to be positive and look at the best of each bow manufacturer, design, or accessory manufacturer.When you were on Bowtech's staff not that long ago, you seemed very positive about them. I'm just wondering if they did something to piss you off? or vice-versa? I'm serious here. Because in my web wanderings I have seen several older posts (search on the bowsite for example) where you seemed very enthusiastic about them.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Indeed I still do, and did! But It also makes me upset when many of the "old timers" (as you said.. or anyone else for that matter) becomes unable to accept anything "new", by giving us a buttload of reasoning that applied 15, or 30 , or 45 years ago, but MAY or MAY NOT apply today. Some old timers swear carbon arrows suck...they base their experience on the days of old..carbons are HUGELY improved today.Or Drop away rests for example. I've seen you "down" on them in several threads. Yep Keith Barner had one out ages ago and probably before him there was some others..and yep..it was not too good of a design..especially for hunting. But his new one IS good. I realize you question their need, assuming properly tuned shooter and equipment..AS DID I..but I decided to give one a try and see if they had changed in 10 years. And I'm very happy I did, it's a nice rest, and even with a moderately decent "shooter tune" (me) and a good "equpment tune" (my bow), I can see some added forgiveness. That's a plus. we all have our likes and dislikes..but these are the sort of "blanket statemenst" I'm seeing from you recently. Is it "alarming"..no...But I also don't remember you being so "my way or the highway" recently.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Diversity and "rebellion" bring change. Sometimes it's good, sometimes bad.Some folks cannot deal with change (I usually am "change resistant"
I think the real reason many of the great techs don't post because there are alot of closed-minded people on many boards(The Bowsite in particular) who are not willing to listen (which I think most here are)..That works both ways though, and listening and blindly folowing are two different things. Offering a fresh or different perspective is a good thing for all parties involved, it's how we learn. My 3 year old son teaches me new things everyday, and I've got 30 more years of experience on him. Same with Archery. I've seen kids who can whip the pants off guys who have been shooting for decades. I also know 18 year old kids who can strip a bow and put it back together alot faster than I can (and I've done my share). It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality. I'm willing to learn all I can from anybody, but I'm also willing to "call out" a "blanket statement" that I just don't agree with based on my personal experience. My "BS" statement was regarding your implication that Bowtech somehow all of a sudden decided a higher brace height was good. I simply pointed out you were wrong and that they had been building higher brace bows since the beginning (when you were on staff, I might add). If that offends you or makes you think I'm calling you a liar, then that is your perogative, but I think you are being overly defensive and rash.JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:02
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:57
11-15-2002, 07:33 PM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
Now you're calling my posts regarding Bowtechs as "unnecessary, Ignorant, and blatant"! C'mon now! "Touchy" only to those that have little respect for others, yes! You talk alot, but you aren't saying anything other than reverting to thinking I am "Ignornant", "touchy", and all my comments lately are "BS". Just general tactics to try and make me look less credible, nice try. Might work with your 3yr old son, but who's gonna believe that here?
Maybe simply because I commented twice on the Bowtechs recently? (no-one reads my other posts?) Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so. Silent Assassin took my previous post out of context also, maybe it looked that way even, but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves. I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...
I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)
It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!
The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.
It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS, but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!) and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not.(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".) If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.
Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks, just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also. I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect. However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case.
Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".
That's it for the speech on this end. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 20:38:12
Maybe simply because I commented twice on the Bowtechs recently? (no-one reads my other posts?) Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so. Silent Assassin took my previous post out of context also, maybe it looked that way even, but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves. I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...
I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)
It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!
The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.
It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS, but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!) and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not.(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".) If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.
Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks, just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also. I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect. However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case.
Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".
That's it for the speech on this end. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 20:38:12
11-15-2002, 09:12 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality.
JeffB
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
So very true!!!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality.
JeffB
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
So very true!!!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
11-15-2002, 09:30 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
I will make my replies here and that is all I have to say on the matter as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now you're calling my posts regarding Bowtechs as "unnecessary, Ignorant, and blatant"! C'mon now! "Touchy" only to those that have little respect for others, yes! You talk alot, but you aren't saying anything other than reverting to thinking I am "Ignornant", "touchy", and all my comments lately are "BS". Just general tactics to try and make me look less credible, nice try. Might work with your daughter, but who's gonna believe that here?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I certainly hope the daughter comment was in a general sense, otherwise it sure DOES hurt YOUR credibilty as "stand up" person, and is certainly a tactic lower than any you accuse ME of.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt due to the medium by which we are communicating and asume you meant no malice towards a member of my family.
I nowhere said "all your comments" other than "all your comments regarding Bowtech lately". Big difference. Please read what I said. Also the "touchy" comment was re: the "granpa" part of my post i.e "touchy" re: your age. Again please read what I posted.
I am not trying to discredit you, hoenstly I could care less about your credibility or lack thereof... though seemingly you feel threatened for some reason, since I questioned some of your logic.I think you discredit yourself at times preaching the evils of being "loyal" when you yourself push your fave brand every chance you get. I simply am curious as to why you feel the need to jab and poke at Bowtech lately. It's been going on for awhile. Not just here on this thread. Perhaps you don't "read" it that way, but I do, as have others.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Seeing how you flew off the handle, demanding an apology re: a farcical post (and was labeled as such with the aformentioned wink, smile, etc), yes. In my book that is rash.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So the company or some other factor is the problem? It's very obvious that there is some "bad blood" somewhere. Hey, if it's a personal thing or a business thing, just say so, I respect that, but don't expect people to just go along with it, and when someone "calls you out" don't play Mr. Innocent.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So when you talk up how great your preferred brand is that's OK? So because Sag (no offense Sag, jut using you as an example) or someone else here likes your fave brand and talks them up they are not a "groupie"? But I and my "band of merry men" are? Double standard.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Absolutely. One can express an opinion though without being derogatory on more than one occasion when the chance presents itself.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>. Again, so as long as I'm loyal to Bowtech, that's no good...but if you are loyal to your fave brand, that's OK? I won't even go into the business aspect here. I'd like to say that of the 12 or so bows I bought last (actually this) year, only 3 were Bowtechs. Of the reports I did, it was split. 3 Bowtechs..3 other brands (Hoyt, Mathews, and HCA). While my loyalty may be with Bowtech and I enjoy "preaching the word", I'm not ignorant enough to believe that MY fave is best for everyone. I also don't bash or jab at other companies unless I make it clear I'm "joking" (the smiley winky thing again). I nearly always, if not absolutely always make a fair post regarding equipment...I specify positives and negatives.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Precisely the point I was trying to make regarding the "great techs" and listening goes both ways. You decline to debate any of my legitimate questions regarding your "stance" on technical matters..writing it off as "babble". You do more to discredit yourself with that statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
sigh..Again...if you had read my post,you would see those comments were regarding your attitude about Bowtech lately or your overreaction to the "grandpa thing" Not YOU in a general sense.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> .
I'm sorry you feel that way. And who here questioned your Sanity? What the hell has that got to do with anything?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Oh boy..where are the violins?...Pinwheel..I don't want you to stop posting here, nor does anyone else. You are a valuable resource, but If you wanna be so strong willed and forceful with your opinions, you better be ready and willing to take some heat back. I like you...never said I did not. I just question and disagree with your logic/thought process at times, and when I felt you were making unfair and/or ignorant statements regarding Bowtech and asked you why point-blank, you got all "high and mighty" about lack of respect and demanding an apology. Yeesh.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So have you been shooting say a BKII OP2 or P38DC or PAT, or whatever for awhile? What are you basing your opinion on? The speedbows of yesteryear? Do you still sell Bowtech? do you carry Hoyt? PSE? What brands do you sell in your shop besides your personal "faves", your website does not specify.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Good. Except this is where out philosophies differ: You seem to be a "it's great", or "it's crap" guy (thumbs up, thumbs down). I'm a "may be crap for me, but gold for the next guy that tries it" kinda guy. Ahh, and you mean the thread that continued on in another thread where the poster in question decided he did not like the new bows and decided to stay with his 6 year old bow? Then yes, I read that.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Well gosh,...I didn't/don't even consider myself an up and coming tech. Just a guy who buys a lot of bows,and fools around with archery equipment cause he likes too. I have no desire or need to be remembered as a Bow Tech (hee hee..Bow Tech). I'm not here to gain a following or make a buck. I'm here to discuss archery.I would liek to note I find curious you now judge my "value" as a tech because of an argument???..as if now, because we do not agree, and I have apparently insulted you, that somehow now I know less than I did before? LOL!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Piss me off..Yup that's a fair statement,though only mildly, and I've explained why numerous times. At the same time though, I don't hold a grudge, stay mad, or consider people to have "crossed my line"...ESPECIALLY on the medium of the internet. I'm actually quite a fun person to be around ..agreeable, respectful, and I like to laugh, so I'm told at least.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I find it disrespectful for a professional in the industry to needle away at a manufacturer (or whatever else) whenever the opportunity presents itself.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Show me where an honest case of name-calling was in my posts, and I'll be happy to apologize for that. The winky smiley Grandpa thing does not count. It's quite common knowledge what those symbols mean (and you use them yourself quite often). If you took that as offensive, then there seems to be a disconnect on your end.
In addition calling your statements ignorant, is not namecalling either. One can make a statement that is ignorant, without being labeled as an ignorant person.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
And I realize that. But that does not mean things will not and do not change. Many of those little tweaks and fixes and other tidbits of knowledge go out of vogue and memory because of lack of need as things improve. Seems to me from your statements sometimes you feel or at least give off a strong message at times that you cannot learn (or maybe choose not to) from anyone who you do not consider equal to or above you in "tech" knowledge or experience. I disagree. In MY opinion the ability to listen, absorb and learn from anyone or any source is a required trait of a true professional, regardless of industry or vocation.
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:33:21
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:36:02
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now you're calling my posts regarding Bowtechs as "unnecessary, Ignorant, and blatant"! C'mon now! "Touchy" only to those that have little respect for others, yes! You talk alot, but you aren't saying anything other than reverting to thinking I am "Ignornant", "touchy", and all my comments lately are "BS". Just general tactics to try and make me look less credible, nice try. Might work with your daughter, but who's gonna believe that here?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I certainly hope the daughter comment was in a general sense, otherwise it sure DOES hurt YOUR credibilty as "stand up" person, and is certainly a tactic lower than any you accuse ME of.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt due to the medium by which we are communicating and asume you meant no malice towards a member of my family.
I nowhere said "all your comments" other than "all your comments regarding Bowtech lately". Big difference. Please read what I said. Also the "touchy" comment was re: the "granpa" part of my post i.e "touchy" re: your age. Again please read what I posted.
I am not trying to discredit you, hoenstly I could care less about your credibility or lack thereof... though seemingly you feel threatened for some reason, since I questioned some of your logic.I think you discredit yourself at times preaching the evils of being "loyal" when you yourself push your fave brand every chance you get. I simply am curious as to why you feel the need to jab and poke at Bowtech lately. It's been going on for awhile. Not just here on this thread. Perhaps you don't "read" it that way, but I do, as have others.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Seeing how you flew off the handle, demanding an apology re: a farcical post (and was labeled as such with the aformentioned wink, smile, etc), yes. In my book that is rash.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So the company or some other factor is the problem? It's very obvious that there is some "bad blood" somewhere. Hey, if it's a personal thing or a business thing, just say so, I respect that, but don't expect people to just go along with it, and when someone "calls you out" don't play Mr. Innocent.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So when you talk up how great your preferred brand is that's OK? So because Sag (no offense Sag, jut using you as an example) or someone else here likes your fave brand and talks them up they are not a "groupie"? But I and my "band of merry men" are? Double standard.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Absolutely. One can express an opinion though without being derogatory on more than one occasion when the chance presents itself.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>. Again, so as long as I'm loyal to Bowtech, that's no good...but if you are loyal to your fave brand, that's OK? I won't even go into the business aspect here. I'd like to say that of the 12 or so bows I bought last (actually this) year, only 3 were Bowtechs. Of the reports I did, it was split. 3 Bowtechs..3 other brands (Hoyt, Mathews, and HCA). While my loyalty may be with Bowtech and I enjoy "preaching the word", I'm not ignorant enough to believe that MY fave is best for everyone. I also don't bash or jab at other companies unless I make it clear I'm "joking" (the smiley winky thing again). I nearly always, if not absolutely always make a fair post regarding equipment...I specify positives and negatives.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Precisely the point I was trying to make regarding the "great techs" and listening goes both ways. You decline to debate any of my legitimate questions regarding your "stance" on technical matters..writing it off as "babble". You do more to discredit yourself with that statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
sigh..Again...if you had read my post,you would see those comments were regarding your attitude about Bowtech lately or your overreaction to the "grandpa thing" Not YOU in a general sense.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> .
I'm sorry you feel that way. And who here questioned your Sanity? What the hell has that got to do with anything?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Oh boy..where are the violins?...Pinwheel..I don't want you to stop posting here, nor does anyone else. You are a valuable resource, but If you wanna be so strong willed and forceful with your opinions, you better be ready and willing to take some heat back. I like you...never said I did not. I just question and disagree with your logic/thought process at times, and when I felt you were making unfair and/or ignorant statements regarding Bowtech and asked you why point-blank, you got all "high and mighty" about lack of respect and demanding an apology. Yeesh.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> So have you been shooting say a BKII OP2 or P38DC or PAT, or whatever for awhile? What are you basing your opinion on? The speedbows of yesteryear? Do you still sell Bowtech? do you carry Hoyt? PSE? What brands do you sell in your shop besides your personal "faves", your website does not specify.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Good. Except this is where out philosophies differ: You seem to be a "it's great", or "it's crap" guy (thumbs up, thumbs down). I'm a "may be crap for me, but gold for the next guy that tries it" kinda guy. Ahh, and you mean the thread that continued on in another thread where the poster in question decided he did not like the new bows and decided to stay with his 6 year old bow? Then yes, I read that.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Well gosh,...I didn't/don't even consider myself an up and coming tech. Just a guy who buys a lot of bows,and fools around with archery equipment cause he likes too. I have no desire or need to be remembered as a Bow Tech (hee hee..Bow Tech). I'm not here to gain a following or make a buck. I'm here to discuss archery.I would liek to note I find curious you now judge my "value" as a tech because of an argument???..as if now, because we do not agree, and I have apparently insulted you, that somehow now I know less than I did before? LOL!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Piss me off..Yup that's a fair statement,though only mildly, and I've explained why numerous times. At the same time though, I don't hold a grudge, stay mad, or consider people to have "crossed my line"...ESPECIALLY on the medium of the internet. I'm actually quite a fun person to be around ..agreeable, respectful, and I like to laugh, so I'm told at least.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I find it disrespectful for a professional in the industry to needle away at a manufacturer (or whatever else) whenever the opportunity presents itself.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Show me where an honest case of name-calling was in my posts, and I'll be happy to apologize for that. The winky smiley Grandpa thing does not count. It's quite common knowledge what those symbols mean (and you use them yourself quite often). If you took that as offensive, then there seems to be a disconnect on your end.
In addition calling your statements ignorant, is not namecalling either. One can make a statement that is ignorant, without being labeled as an ignorant person.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
And I realize that. But that does not mean things will not and do not change. Many of those little tweaks and fixes and other tidbits of knowledge go out of vogue and memory because of lack of need as things improve. Seems to me from your statements sometimes you feel or at least give off a strong message at times that you cannot learn (or maybe choose not to) from anyone who you do not consider equal to or above you in "tech" knowledge or experience. I disagree. In MY opinion the ability to listen, absorb and learn from anyone or any source is a required trait of a true professional, regardless of industry or vocation.
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:33:21
Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:36:02
11-15-2002, 09:56 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
I WOULD like to apologize to the moderators, the originator of this thread and anyone else I might have offended by taking this way off topic and into a realm inappropriate for these boards.
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
11-15-2002, 10:21 PM
#17
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 6,455
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
Gee I hope JeffB and PW12 can kiss and make up.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
It might time for a group hugg and a cold shower to cool off a little guys.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Aussie by birth Texan by choice
It might time for a group hugg and a cold shower to cool off a little guys.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Aussie by birth Texan by choice
11-16-2002, 12:01 AM
#18
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: O\'Fallon MO O\'Fallon, MO
Posts: 95
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
OK, I am going to post now & I hope nobody hollers at me.<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I went to my local pro shop today to pick up my new arrows. The guys @ the shop wanted me to shoot my BK II for a guy who was looking to buy one, so I did. He had me shoot @ the 20 yard target, 30 yard target & 40 yard target. I hit inside the 12 ring on 20 & 30, inside the 10 ring on the 40 yard shot. I think he was surprised, because he knows I haven’t been shooting long. He then had me shoot @ numerous targets for the 3D shoot. I hit all of them in the kill zone some better than others.
End of story is, he invited me up to their Tuesday & Thursday night 3D league. I am new to the sport & really only planned on hunting. My entire setup is camoed out, BK II (opp 2) & other equipment; will the guys @ this 3D shoot be laughing @ me because I am so new & shooting a hunting bow setup, I do have a Sure Loc sight & ATC scope on it?
I know one thing, I can hit inside the 10 ring @ 40 yards, & inside the 12 ring inside 30 yards. That isn’t real impressive probably, but for someone who has only been shooting a month or so I am very happy. I believe it is in large part due to the equipment I am using, IE…. BK II. My brother has the Mathews Legacy, he is taking the slow silent approach, IE big BH & heavier arrows, around 250 fps. I can shoot the daylights out of him.
I bet my neighbors are getting pissed, when I get home from afternoon shift I set a hanging light in my driveway by my target & stand in my garage & shoot. When my arrow hits the target it is kind of loud. I GOT IT BAD!!!!!!
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
I went to my local pro shop today to pick up my new arrows. The guys @ the shop wanted me to shoot my BK II for a guy who was looking to buy one, so I did. He had me shoot @ the 20 yard target, 30 yard target & 40 yard target. I hit inside the 12 ring on 20 & 30, inside the 10 ring on the 40 yard shot. I think he was surprised, because he knows I haven’t been shooting long. He then had me shoot @ numerous targets for the 3D shoot. I hit all of them in the kill zone some better than others.
End of story is, he invited me up to their Tuesday & Thursday night 3D league. I am new to the sport & really only planned on hunting. My entire setup is camoed out, BK II (opp 2) & other equipment; will the guys @ this 3D shoot be laughing @ me because I am so new & shooting a hunting bow setup, I do have a Sure Loc sight & ATC scope on it?
I know one thing, I can hit inside the 10 ring @ 40 yards, & inside the 12 ring inside 30 yards. That isn’t real impressive probably, but for someone who has only been shooting a month or so I am very happy. I believe it is in large part due to the equipment I am using, IE…. BK II. My brother has the Mathews Legacy, he is taking the slow silent approach, IE big BH & heavier arrows, around 250 fps. I can shoot the daylights out of him.
I bet my neighbors are getting pissed, when I get home from afternoon shift I set a hanging light in my driveway by my target & stand in my garage & shoot. When my arrow hits the target it is kind of loud. I GOT IT BAD!!!!!!
<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
11-16-2002, 12:44 AM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
AB Bowhunter, if "you got it bad" now I'm here to tell you that it can get worse with each passing year. Archery is a very passionate sport as you can read in previous posts<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. Enjoy!
11-16-2002, 12:50 AM
#20
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: O\'Fallon MO O\'Fallon, MO
Posts: 95
RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.
I generally shoot for about 30 minutes whe I get home then fall prey to the Hunting.Net board for about 2 hours. These 3D shoots could be the straw that breaks my back with the wife.
This board is the greatest, it helps out us new guys more than you can imagine. thanks everyone!
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.
This board is the greatest, it helps out us new guys more than you can imagine. thanks everyone!
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.