proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Last post PPL tried to help me and answer my question, which I appreciate, but I apparently did not give enough information. Here it is again, with info asked for, if someone would not mind trying again. Thank You ahead of time for the assistance.

I am shooting a PSE Firestorm Lite, rated at 300 IBO. I was shooting 72 lbs., with a 28 1/2 inch draw, carbon express 400's, Blazer vains, muzzy 3 blade 100 gr., through a Whisker Biscuit, Cronyed out at 256 fps. We dropped it back to 55 lbs. and it is shooting 230 fps. Does that information help more.???? I am not grouping well, and the arrow seem to be going in at abit of anangle with the knock to the left of the tip. Are my arrows over-spined now since I dropped back to 55 lbs?

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

You should easily be able to shoot a 400 spine up to about 65#. Getting up around 70# it is going to be underspined or at the very upper edge of the charts. I question why you would drop clear down to 55# though.

My experience with carbon shafts is that they will shoot well even if grossly overspined. I've shot a 300 spine at 27" that tuned well down around 53#. You can't just drop from 72# down to 55# and expect the arrows to shoot the same. It calls for a complete retune. And with such a short axle to axle bow everything is going to be a bit more critical to any form flaws.

Most likely you're going to have to play with the centershot some. If you don't have one you would be well served to download the Easton Tuning Guide from their website. Try walkback tuning and then broadhead tuning.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

BGFisher,

I understand your confusion on this subject. I recently posted the changes to my set up asking for help because I am in no mans land. I just had neck / spine surgery last thursday. I have reset my bow because I would not be able to draw 72 lbs. when the DOC. releases me. I am having to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, for after my recovery. Thus the 55 lb. weight. I wanted to honor the deer by getting the set up as "right" as I can, and when the doc. says I can hunt I will be ready and running out the door. The last thing I would want to do is go out half cocked, and poorly tuned, and "hurt" the animal. So I am tring to make sure I have done my part. When I looked at the idea of 400's at 72 lbs. shooting pretty well, verses 400's at 55 lbs. and the way they were flying, ( not bad but not great ), I began to wonder about the arrow spine. This is my attempt to see if that could be the problem. Thanks for the input.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Mike,

That sufficiently answers my question. I've had two neck and one lower back surgery so I can relate. Been out of town for a while so didn't catch your other posts.

I laud you for wanting to be "ethical". I guess you'll be hunting whitetails so frankly you should still have enough peak weight. In fact I hunt with about 56# myself.

I know most guys get all hyped up about the speed that most modern bows get and the resultant KE, but believe me, I was hunting with compounds when 200 fps was a very fast setup and still managed to get complete pass throughs 30 years ago. It's mostly about good arrow flight and sharp broadheads. Of course, accuracy still being key.

One thing I just caught from your first post here is that you are using Blazer vanes. Because of the drastic weight change this might be part of the problem. You might refletch a couple with 4" vanes or feathers and see if this helps--if you have a fletching jig. If not then maybe buy a couple arrows already fletched with same and try them. Could be you just need a little more stabilization on the back end of the arrow.

I'll be keeping up with this thread and I wish you luck with the neck. By the way, was it a laminectomy or what?

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

My right arm and shoulderwas hurting terribly at times, with musclespasms, and a lot of pain between my shoulder blades. After several tests, neurosurgeon found nurve pathways at c 5 , c 6 , and c 7were completely blocked off by an extreme disc herniation - which did rupture before the surgery.... and large bone spurs which he had to grind out of the vertebrae. Go Figure... now arm hurts like hell because the nerves are starting to comeBACK to life...MY luck...but I am on my way and I hope to soon be holding my bow again. Thanks...MET

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Yep, that's stiff. I showed them being stiff at 72 as well. That is assuming you have 28 inch arrows. If they are longer they would be a bit weaker.

I agree with BG though, carbons tend to shoot pretty well when overspined. I also agree anytime you change something you need to retune to that set up.

Paul

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Well thanks for the info, I thought I might be overspined, but with that said, if I may ask, what should I be shooting for that rig?

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Carbon express rates their arrows opposite of Easton/ Beman. A CX400 is the stiffest shaft offered in the Carbon Express line (about a .290 spine). These arrows are extremely overly stiff for your set up. A CX400 would be the proper arrow to use if you were shooting 75 - 80+ pounds, had a 29"+ arrow length and were using 125 grain tips.

You should be using a CX 200 at 55 pounds. I figure with the whisker bisquit you arrows measure about 27 inches long and assuming the popular 100 grain tip.

You may also need to adjust your center shot slightly and your nock height.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Thats what I needed, Thank you sir. New arrows will be purchased tomorrow. Good luck and Great hunting.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Bigbulls is right and I should have caught the fact that you are shooting carbon express. As far as I'm concerned there should be an AMO standard for marking the spine on arrows. For what it's worth I think Easton/Beman are the only ones marked correctly, marking them with the actual spine deflection in inches.

That's the reason you have to always check the charts before buying arrows and do a little interpolating. So although I was right in my thinking I erred in not cross referencing my numbers to the carbon express. I'll try to be more astute next time.

And for what it's worth you just might get used to that lower poundage and enjoy it better.

Good luck with the healing process and don't overdo it.

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Wouldn't that be wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Imagine everyone being on the same page and actually printing the spine deflection on theshaft.

Heck, Gold tip uses multiple types of ratings on their shafts. Their hunting arrows have the supposed poundage on the shaft (3555, 5575, 7595) and then they have their ultralights printed with the spine deflection.

Then you have Carbon Impact that has 5000, 6000, 6500, and 7000 for their spine ratings.

[8D][&:][8D][&:][8D][&:][8D][&:][8D][&:][8D][&:][8D][&:]

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Gentlemen, you have helped me tremendously. B.T.W. I did state something a bit incorrectly myself. I said my draw was 28 1/2 inches. To state things correctly, my arrow length from the end of the insert to the end of the nock is 28 5/8 inches. But from what I have gotten from you all I am still way overspined and should be shooting 200's or 250's. I am buying them today. Thanks guys.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

bigbulls,

Id not only like to see some standardization on spine deflection, but on variance, too. Ther only tech charts I've seen, and I haven't seen them all, were on ACC's and the tech bulletin stated that the variance in spine of them was .005".

Wouldn't it be nice to know how well those $120/doz, .001" straight, Pro quality arrows are really made?

MIKE,

You didn't make a mistake. Arrows are measured from the deepest part of the nock groove to the end of the shaft, si 28 1/2" is correct. Besides, 1/8" won't make a difference.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Hey BG,

Thanks for the input and the understanding. But I checked with my local shop today and they didn't have anything in m weight range in stock, so I haven't bought yet. In a way I am kinda glad too. Now I get to look at another issue... I read the post about the carbon arrow explosion this evening and WOW did it get my attention..... Now I am rethinking my choice of arrows. I know the likely -hood of that happening to me is slim, but it is possible, so I need to consider all my options. Like easton acc's. Or something like that. Got any input you want to share?? I'm all ears. I may even start another post thread about that issue. Everyone feel free to chime in.

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OK, so now you can log onto www.eastonarchery.com and do some research on the 2006 Full Metal Jacket arrows. These are like an inside-out ACC, the carbon fibers wrapped inside the aluminum. And as I stated when I got in on this thread, look at a .400" spine---LOL.

I own and have shot several different sizes of ACC's and can say they are about as fine a hunting arrow arrow as can be bought within the realm of most wallets.

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Thanks BG, You are a man, fast with the reply and quick with a tip. I appreciate your help and knowledge. Thanks for letting me be lazy and putting the link in for me...lol.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

O.K. so now I am a little confused. I went to easton site and looked around and checked things out. I see I can get the AXIS FMJ , The A/C superslim, or the superlite A/C/C. But I did not understand what they mean by deflection, and I do not know what is separating one arrow from the other. ( their Differences ). And am I looking for a 400 or 500 shaft, or does it matter? Also, I am at 55 lbs now. Is there one of them in particular which will still be a better choice if and when I can go back up in weight. I may not go back up to 72, but what If I wanted to go back to 65 or so. I know I am asking a lot of questions, but I really did not understand all their charts.... But that might be my pain pills too...LOL

Also, do they come fletched? With Blazers? Do they shoot good with Blazers? Is this about to be an expensive experiment for me???LOL

I found prices on the net for the A/C superslim, and A/C/C, but no one had any information, that I could find, on the Axis FMJ.

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Mike,

Man, you are full of questions aren't you? I'll do the best I can with them.

Deflection relates to arrow spine. Looking at ACC's you'll see that the 3-28 is listed as a .500 spine. I use decimals as this is really the "inches" the arrow deflects when put on a spine tester. I'm using 3-28's as an example because I have them. I also havea technical chart in front of me.

You're running into problem here because you need and arrow for 55# and may want to pop up to 65# later. This in reality means a .500 spine isn't going to work for both. If you get up around 65# you're going to need about a 3-49 (.390 spine) ACC, maybe even a 3-60(.340 spine). And these things aren't cheap.

My suggestion would be to get what you'd need in the future and settle for being overspined for now. It's only temporary, right? In a sense arrows are arrows and most react the same way leaving the bow. You're far better off shooting an overspined arrow than underspined with broadheads Field points could care less. They'll group even if you're underspined by 15#. They'll fly ugly as hell, but still group because they're all doing the same thing. Put blades on the front and they'll be all over the place.

I haven't tried all the others mentioned because they are generally a heavy arrow and I'm a speed freak. And looking at the specs on most Easton arrows turns me off. Straightness of .005" just doesn't make it for me, although I've shot ICS and Litepseeds and the Litespeedswere well within the listed specs; the ICS were so-so. I've gotten rid of all of them. Ditto on the A/C Slims and much ballyhoo'd Axis arrows.

Just as an after thought you could check out Gold Tip/Blackhawk. They have an ACC arrow that compares favorably to ACC's, but at a cheaper cost. The spines are the same, too. How good are they? Haven't shot them so can't say.

Now I'll throw in some more confusion. I am shooting 27" draw and 58# for hunting. My arrows are God Tip 22 Ultralite Pro's, a .300 spine shaft. Think about this. They are a stiff enough spine for me to shoot at about 75# or so; way off the charts on the stiff side. With target point and broadheads they fly like darts. This is an all carbon arrow so may not be to your liking, but I had to throw it in to give you something to think about. These are expensive, but regular Ultralites 22's are cheaper.

Now, who makes fletched arrows? You gotta be kidding everybody does. With Blazers might be a different story. Those you might have to order somewhere and I won't endorse anybody. I've made up my own arrows for 30 years now so am out of touch with that issue. I would recommend one thing though. If you end up with an all carbon arrow I would recommend getting raw shafts and when you get them cut and fletched have 1 1/2" cut from the nock end first and the remainder from the point end. If all carbon arrows are out of spec it is usually at the ends and often at the nock end. Cutting this off allows for a much straighter arrow when completed.

So now that I've given you some information and got your head spinning I'll give you something else to think about. How about getting a feltching jig, some Fletchtite Platinum, some vanes, and start doing your own? Then you can have an end product just the wy you want it.

By the way, I could get into more technical stuff, but don't feel the need. And I don't know everything about every arrow. Goodness, man, who do you know that has the money to buy and shoot them all?

RE: proper arrow spine info - relisted
 

Sorry BG I was not trying to wear you out, or overwhelm you. And to answer your question, I don't know anyone with that kind of money, thats why I am trying to not make any mistakes when I buy my new arrows. I'll get the best thing I can, now, to"cover" my current situation , but something that will also fit the future when I can raise my draw weight back up some. But I may never go back to shooting 70 + lbs.

But I do appreciate your kindness towards helping me.

Deer hunters are good people.

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Mike,

No apologies necessary. You're not wearing me out or even close. I'm actually enjoying this.

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BG, Thank you.

But you understand that you are currently dealing with a guy who essentially has a broken neck, and has nothing to do for the next couple of weeks but sit around recouperating ( healing ) for about 20 hours a day, ( I am only sleeping about 4 hours a day ) , thinking about hunting, learning about his gear, discovering new gear, reading and questioning about anything his pain pill filled head can get through his laptop keyboard. This site did not need me to have this happen to my neck right now. I am living here.....lol , but it is keeping me sane at least.