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How exactly do you group tune?
I've read about it, been told it's a good second step after paper tuning but I just dont know how exactly to group tune. What does this mean and how do I go about it? If I group tune with field tips, to I need to do it again with broadheads? I did a search but didnt come up with an answer.
I'm shooting a Merlin Lite Storm (71#), string loop, fall away rest, CX-300's 28.5 inches 100gn FOC 11-12%. Thanks in advance. Cargo |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Rick-
Here's what you do-- Go out and put a + on a target butt with electrical tape or whatever. Step back to 20 yds, and shoot a group at the center of the +. Adjust your sight till you hit center. If your group is large, after making sight adjustments to hit as close as you can to the center of the +, make SMALL adjustments to your rest or nocking point and shoot another group. If needed, shoot another with more SMALL adjustments. Continue this until you are satified with your group size. Then check at 30, 40, whatever yardage you want, and adjust accordingly if your groups wander to right or left or open up more than you feel is "normal". Always take into consideration your individual skills and abilities. If you know you shot a poor group, do not count it. Do NOT rush this process, and if you get fatigued, quit and continue again later when you are refreshed. To "supertune" (twin cam only) you simply go to the next step of the group tuning process. You shoot your initial group at 20 yds, then do it again, only this time creep forward slightly (about 1/8" or so) with the second group. If your impact point hits higher or lower than the original group at normal anchor, your bow needs a twist on the cables to "bring it in". If you hit high, twist the lower buss cable 1/2 turn. If it hits low, the upper cable. Continue this process until you have the same impact point heights regardless of creep or overdraw. You do not need to go to 40 yds on the supertuning process. You'll be surprised how well you will consistently shoot with a group tuned/supertuned bow. Solocams cannot be supertuned because they have no opposing cam with which to balance the system. Hope this helps, I'm sure it will if you take your time with it. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Now, do you think this is possible with a dropaway rest?
The only reason I've started looking into group tuning is that my groups are bigger at 40-60yds than I would expect/tollerate. I'm shooting bulletholes now at 6' and I bare shaft tuned to 20yds IAW Easton's Tuning Guide. I went to a dropaway more out of curiosity than anything so I'm not attached to it. From reading posts you've made before concerning rests you lean towards a "support" rest. If I had to go back to another rest it sounds like it needs to be micro-adjustable to make group tuning easier. Thanks again. I wish I had the coin to take that other Lite Storm off your hands. Cargo |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Cargo-
Harder to do, but it can be done. You still have your windage, height, and dwell, but you probably do not have micro-adjustability. Spring-tension support definately makles the job easier also IMO, as stated in other posts. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Pinwheel 12 you are wrong about supertuning, it can be done with a single or dual cam bow, and the tuning process you mention is not even close, super tuning was created by George Champman of PSE, I attended Pse school with George in march of this year, and became a certified tech and shooter, and I know all about the supertuning method. Supertuning starts from the time you get the bow and start to set it up, then there are some fine tuning adj. you can make to dial in your center shot, and your nocking point, but it does not involve putting twists in your cable, or any of the steps you mention.
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RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I use a nap dropaway 2000, and I find it easier to make micro adjustments by loosening or tightening the limb bolts about 1/16 of a turn. It's very hard to get those little adjustments with a dropaway rest, at least vertical.
If you tighten the top bolt, it will raise your nock point a little, if you tighten the bottom bolt, it will lower your nock point a little. The reverse for looseening them. Just a little easier for me. "In heaven, even the fish have antlers" |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PSEJoe-
No, I'm sorry, you do NOT know about supertuning if you believe me to be wrong, or that George Chapman originated the process. He did not, and he never mentions it in his schools either. Dennis Sullivan is the originator of the method,(he calls it "creep tuning", I've called it "supertuning" for many years) and this was way back in the beginning of compound bow technology and tuning, before PSE was a gleam in Pete Shepley's eye or George was a master tech. This was recently discussed heavily over at Archerytalk.com Take a step over there, click on the search button at the top of the page, type in "creep tune method" and read the 80 post thread started by GRIV entitled "the creep tune procedure". You may learn something. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12 Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 09:45:26 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Super tuning is not the same as creep tuning, and I have the documentation from PSE school by George explaining supertuning step by step, creep tuning is a different method, and if you attended PSE school you would know George teaches supertuning in his school,he dosen't rely on paper tuning and he teaches bare shaft tuning is better for finger shooters.
George has been a master tech before compound bows where even introduced to the market. He is 66 yrs old so I doubt if you used the phrase before he was a gleam in PSE's eyes. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
CargoF16
Do not pay attention to anyone that is trying to take you where you should not go at this time. "Supertune," what a bunch of bunk! I call it "thorough tuning," and it (thorough tuning) has been around since someone realized that you should tune a bow and the gear. Cargo, just sit back and relax. When the "rads" and "zoomies" get through dumping the hype on you, there will be shooters who will come and explain to you (just) the basic tuning techniques that are required for the field. It is not that complicated unless you allow it to be. In the meantime, if the paper-tuning reveals that you have your arrows flying straight, just adjust your sight pin(s) until you are hitting the mark from the yardage each pin is set for. Unless you shoot often, like all through the year, it is common your groups will begin to open as the distance increases. One cause is that a pin (head) size vs. the size of area you are shooting at. The more the pin covers the spot, the harder it becomes to center and hold the pin in the same spot each shot. Unless your hunting area requires you to take a 40-60 yard shot, which is a long shot for most shooters, why do you want/need to shoot tight groups at that distance? Determine the max distance you are willing to take a shot; tune your bow and yourself to consistently hit the mark at that distance. Put the effort where it counts. Do not get caught up in the propaganda that you bh's are suppose to hit the same spot your fp's do, without any need to adjust. It just ain't so. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I always wondered where they come up with sayings like "you never get a second chance to make a first impression..."
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RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unless your hunting area requires you to take a 40-60 yard shot, which is a long shot for most shooters, why do you want/need to shoot tight groups at that distance? Determine the max distance you are willing to take a shot; tune your bow and yourself to consistently hit the mark at that distance. Put the effort where it counts.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Huh? What kind of logic is this? Why limit yourself to practicing at just your max hunting distance? If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake. Take up field spot shooting for a while- it'll open your eyes quite a bit. There's nothing like shooting a great group on the 80yd target! As far as the tuning process you asked about- I do things very similar to PW12. But I seperate the X and Y axis into two different procedures. I'll concentrate on the Y (vertical) axis first with VERY small incremental adjustments in my centershot position. All I'm watching is my horizontal spread as I'm shooting at a vertical line with each adjustment- is the spread getting bigger or smaller? If it's getting smaller, I keep incrementing the centershot in that direction until the spread starts to get bigger again. I make notes as I go along, so I look back and see where I had the smallest horizontal spread. Then I know I've found the optimum centershot. Then I move onto the X (horizontal) adjustments with nock point and repeat the above process until I've determined my optimum nock point position. If I'm not satisfied with my results, you may have to consider a tweak in the arrow spine/bow combination. Maybe I'll give the limb bolts a crank up or down depending on how I think my arrow is behaving and repeat the entire procedure. Maybe I'll cut a 1/2" off my arrows that I intentionally left a tad long just for the "tinkering" purpose, and then repeat the entire procedure. Different tip weight, and repeat the entire process... You can get as "anal" as you want with all the variables in the mix, and at some point you'll have to say "this is good enough for me". The most important thing is to have fun and enjoy what you're doing! Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:15:59 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Rangeball <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I also wondered where they came up with the saying - "A lttle bit of knowledge can be very dangerous" |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
It appears that Cargo may be novice to average shooter. Why take him down a road he should not (yet) travel?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Where and how did you reach that conclusion? Please explain to Cargo, and me, how all things remain and occur the same, other than pin height, from 0 to 80 yards.? I am anxiously awaiting. There may be "...nothing like shooting a great group at 80-yards..." on a target, but it is a greater thrill to hit the zone on the deer at 0-30 yards with a bow/gear precisely tune to do so. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
What difference does it make if a person is an average shooter or not? Are you saying that unless you're experienced shooter you shouldn't be practicing long distances? Sure, if someone is just starting out, then it would be wise to just get comforatble and accurate at close distances. But once that neophyte shine wears off, why not broaden your horizons a bit?
Confidence is a major factor in archery. When practicing longer distances than your max hunting distance, and doing it WELL, your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier. I think that is pretty much common sense. I agree that it is a huge thrill to put an arrow dead center in the boiler room from 0-30yds. But practicing at ALL distances will help you do it more consistently and with more confidence. Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds. Wouldn't you want your bow as well tuned as possible? I know I do. Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 12:33:25 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Pinwheel 12 you are wrong about supertuning, it can be done with a single or dual cam bow, and the tuning process you mention is not even close, super tuning was created by George Champman of PSE, I attended Pse school with George in march of this year, and became a certified tech and shooter, and I know all about the supertuning method. Supertuning starts from the time you get the bow and start to set it up, then there are some fine tuning adj. you can make to dial in your center shot, and your nocking point, but it does not involve putting twists in your cable, or any of the steps you mention.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
PSEJoe, While I sometimes agree to disagree with PW12 on some "theoretical" points, I can assure you that he is not wrong. I have no credentials other than a long time in the sport and having learned and listened to some very knowlegeable individuals. You should look at your PSE tuning school experience like an individual graduating college and then coming out to the job and telling the guy that has been doing the job for 30 years how he should be doing it. There is no substitue for experience and PW12 has more than most of us self proclaimed techs all put together. PW12's credentials speak for themselves and I can assure you that they tower above yours. So keep in mind that although you have gone to school it does not mean that you now know everything. I am not telling you that you should always agree with anyone because I don't ALWAYS agree with anyone. I am just telling you that you are not talking to a bunch of fly by nighters and you are not going to come in here and start talking over anyone's head regardless of how much theoretical knowledge you think you have floating around up there. Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal." |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PSEJoe-
You're talking semantics here, "Supertuning" is a phrase I have called the creep tune method for many years.(ask regular members of all of the messageboards how many times I've referred to it by that name) I know how old George is, and have spoken with him on occasion and have sat in on his seminars, as well as Bob Ragsdales' and Alexander Kirrilovs'. (among many others--Bernie Pellerite, Frank Pearson, Larry Wise, Chris Jones, etc) I have not heard of any other tuning method called "supertuning" in my years in this business with the exception of once I overhead a tech call laser tuning this. Everything else is simply "tuning". As I stated, semantics. The procedure was aptly described for all to know what I was talking about, so please stop trying to rattle my cage. And if you and C903 go over and read a little more about it, you may even choose to use the "creep tune", "supertune", (whatever you want to call it) method. It DOES work, and certainly is by no means a waste of time. I look at it this way--- If one person uses it and gets a harvest instead of a lost animal that will eventually die, to me that in itself is worth all of this trouble of bantering back and forth with the non-believers. Our sport is not one that is "good enough" accuracy-wise IMO, the game we hunt deserve better than the "that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds. (seen lots of 'em, and they shouldn't be in the woods IMHO) And, the anti-hunters need no further fuel than what they already have, IMO. "Lazy hunters" need to get un-lazy, more educated about the sport and equipment, and work harder to ensure they make quick and clean kills. Utilizing better technical tactics and tuning methods to score better in tournaments only flows over into that persons' hunting shots too. I make my living from this sport.(two archery businesses)I live and breathe it, and want it to get BETTER for my children and grandchildren to fully enjoy in the future. (Most people do, but don't think about this part of it.) "That's good" is simply not good enough. Sorry for the rant. SA--- Thank-you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12 Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/06/2002 13:26:08 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
OK-PSE and Pinwheel, lets calm down, your both right in a sence. George Chapman teaches the Medicine Stone supertune method, which is used mainly by long distance target shooters, and it works, but is not the best method for shooting broadheads. Pinwheel is telling you another supertune method. All tuning methods work, the end product is what your trying to achieve. Before you blast me about Mr. Chapman, yes I've been to his school, and yes I've done both methods of tuning, plus a few other ways. Do I use his method, no I don't, a basic paper tune at several distances, and a fast check of Pinwheels type method at 20 and 30 yards will usually have you shooting broadheads very good at "hunting" distances. Now, if your shooting at 100 meters with power scopes, Mr. Chapmans method will probably prevail, by the way, his method also includes a type of tuning that Pinwheel was trying to explain.
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RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What difference does it make if a person is an average shooter or not?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
You meant this statement to be received as a piece of humor, didn't you? Surely, you are not serious? Also, are you saying that all that is required to accurately shoot at above averages distances, is that the "shine" be a little dulled; that you grab onto some confidence, pick up your bow, load an arrow, and just fire away? Confidence is relevant, but confidence does not replace knowledge and skill. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...your confidence soars in knowing that if you can shoot great groups at 60yds- a shot at 25yds is all that much easier.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> You talking target shooting? You definately are not referring to hunting conditions. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Plus, little tuning changes that you might not notice shooting at 30yds WILL show up shooting at 60yds.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> That can, at times, be true. But there can be reverse affects also. Do you know what those reverse affects can be and what problems can occur? I say; leave your broadening of your horizons on the target range. For the field and the purpose of shooting at a living animal, be as precise as you can be within the limits of your capabilities, your gear's capabilities, and within the limits of reality. Then, maybe less deer will be lost. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Ok, I would like to throw a smart .... comment into the mix just for .... and giggles...
P12, <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"that's good" lazy hunters who pick their bows up two days before the season and blow the dust off and shoot groups the size of a basketball at 20 yds <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Are we talking NBA basketballs here or those little kids ones, cuz those little kids ones are actually pretty small and I would think of it as a half decent group for some folks I know....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.... ......and is the basketball inflated? <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
c903-
Whether a person is an "average" shooter or not, should NOT preclude them from sharpening their skills. And part of sharpening your skills can be obtained by shooting long distances. When a person may see initially how large their groups may be at long distances, then they may be more motivated to improve tuning, form, ability. I never said that someone should just fire away all willy-nilly at any distances. Confidence is very relevant, and I never said that it replaces knowledge or skill. WHERE does confidence come from in the first place?!? Obtaining SKILL and KNOWLEDGE!! Instead of: "geez... is that 22yds or 26yds? I dunnoo...., I'm nervous, apprehensive...", you may have: "Yes- that's 24 yds because I KNOW it." Instead of: " oooh man, that buck is right at 27yds- that's a long shot for me, that's the edge of where I practice....", you may have: "27yds? no problem, I KNOW I can shoot great groups with my equipment at 50yds, so this shot will NOT a be problem". It's sad to me to see people that 'seperate' target shooting and hunting shooting into two speperate worlds. In both cases you still are shooting a bow, have your shooting form, have a target in your sight, etc.... It is just with hunting that you have defined distance limits at the shot you're going to take out of respect for the animal. When I say shooting great groups at 60yds (field target) makes a 25yd shot (deer's vital zone) that much easier- I am NOT talking about either target shooting or hunting conditions. I'm talking about ARCHERY. Just because you will not take a shot past 30yds in the woods does not mean you shouldn't practice past 30yds on the range. I agree that for hunting purposes that one should be as precise as possible and stay within the capability limits of you and your gear. I never implied anything to the contrary. I have always recommended and adhered to a 30yd max hunting range. So in your line of thinking, does that mean I should never bother to shoot any other distance past 30yds? Never bother to fine tune a bow past that distance? That any long range tuning won't help in my 0-30yd window? Edited by - Black Frog on 11/06/2002 14:08:35 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PAB-
The "little kids' ones" are about as big as you want to go at 20yds, don't you think?(even with a recurve? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) With the size of some of the "wallet" deer I see in some states I hunt, anything bigger would be a sure wound or miss!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> And yes, that would be inflated. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> PW12 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I meant no disrespect to anyone all I am trying to say is bow tuning is not rocket science, George's version of supertuning is a way of setting up a bow from scratch, and then fine tuning it, I do not agree with it being used only for long distances, and who wants to go thru the trouble of putting your bow in a vise everytime you need to put a twist in the cable, here is George's way of dialing in your center shot for anyone that is interested, I know all of the tuning methods out there are used and called different things, I have been in archery for over 25 years so I do know a few things, not to say I know it all, I sure some of you guys have forgotten more than I'll ever know.
THIS IS THE SUPER TUNING METHOD FOR DIALING IN YOUR CENTER SHOT, ASSUMING YOUR BOW HAS BEEN SET UP PROPERLY AND SHOOTING GROUPS, WETHER THEY ARE WHERE YOU WANT THEM OR NOT DON'T BE TOO PICKY ABOUT YOUR CENTER SHOT, BECAUSE THE ARCHER HAS TO SHOOT IN THE CENTER SHOT ANYWAY. THIS IS DONE BY HAVING THE ARCHER SHOOT AT A 3" TARGET AT 20 YARDS, SETTING HIS OR HER SIGHT TO HIT THE CENTER. SHOOT A 3 OR 4 ARROW GROUP, WHEN THIS IS DONE, HANGS A STRING WITH A WEIGHT (PLUMB BOB) ON THE ARROW IN THE CENTER OF THEGROUP, LEAVING IT IN THE TARGET, THEN TAKE THE ARCHER TO 30 YDS OR MORE STILL USING THERE 20 YD PIN STILL AIMING ATTHE THE SAME TARGET AND SHOOT THREE GOOD ARROWS. IF THE GROUP IS TO THE RIGHT OF THE STRING, MOVE YOUR REST TO THE LEFT IN SMALL INCREMENTS UNTIL THE GROUP IS WITHIN 1" OR LESS LEFT OR RIGHT OF THE STRING FOR THE AVERAGE ARCHER, FOR THE PRO, WE WANT THE ARROW 1/4" OR LESS TO THE STRING, YOU MUST BE SHOOTING CONSISTANTLY FOR THIS TO WORK IF NOT YOUR JUST WASTING YOUR TIME, WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS DIALING OUT THE ARCHERS TORQUE. THERE IS ALSO A METHOD FOR DIALING IN YOUR HIGH OR LOW GROUPS SIMILAR TO THIS METHOD, USING YOUR BOTTOM LIMB BOLT FOR ADJUSTMENT. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
PSE,
That is called the "walk back method", Never heard of that being called the "supertune" As far as up and down - shooting at a horizontal line I would micro-adjust my nocking point/rest before I fiddled with the lower limb. |
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RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Kind of sorry I asked. As for my motivation for worrying about groups at 40-60 yards, it's because I'm a competitor. I cant stand when the guy shooting next to me pulls three arrows out with one hand and I'm plucking them from around the sweet spot. Even if he has a scope, back tension release, eye patch and stabilizer "out to here" and I'm shooting my hunting rig (my only rig) I want to shoot better than him/her regardless of distance. I know my limits for hunting based on my ability so I have no illusions of a 40 yd kill shot. But when I go to the range I want to crush my friends and anyone else with a bow!
Thanks PW12 and Black Frog for answering the question. Cargo |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I know my limits for hunting based on my ability so I have no illusions of a 40 yd kill shot. But when I go to the range I want to crush my friends and anyone else with a bow!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I love that attitude! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Cargo-
ahhhhhhh!! The sweet sound of motivation! ;) Good for you. Like I mentioned before, you might want to try field spot shooting if you haven't already. It sounds to me like you're the type of person that would love it. Shooting groups at ALL distances out to 80yds. Check around at your local clubs to see if they offer a league for that- Best of luck- |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
There is a constant argument presented, that if you can hit and group at a much greater distance than will/should be shot at a deer, one's confidence soars and (paraphrased) "..all other shots at a much lesser distance becomes a "piece of cake." Of the many absurd and unrealistic statements commonly made here, that advice and belief takes the "whole cake."
Whenever I add my 2-cents -sometimes 5-cents, I am primarily addressing the novice and average shooters, and primarily for the purpose of assisting them to initially develop the necessary (basic) knowledge and skills for bowhunting, and the appropriate bowhunting mentality. My sole objective, as it should be with all bowhunters, is to reduce the number of deer that are lost because of a bad shot indisputably caused by the shooter, or their gear, or both. I am not disputing that confidence is an essential element that enables some people to be better at what they do. However, there is such a thing as "overconfidence" and "misguided confidence." I am also not disputing that there are valid reasons for some shooters to develop the skill and confidence to hit the mark at distances considered greater than realistic and appropriate for hunting conditions e.g., 3D competition, clouting, field archery, etc. There, however, can be a downside to advocating that it is beneficial that all bowhunters learn to hit the mark at distances that is greater than necessary. Novice and average shooters who eventually develop the skill to hit the mark at a greater distance than is needed, or a distnace that is appropriate and realistic for hunting purposes, but do not constantly practice or do not consistently hit the mark, are likely to aquire "overconfidence" or a "misguided confidence" of their abilities and their gear's capabilities for hunting conditions. This is a shooter whom is apt to take a shot at a distance that was totally inappropriate, resulting in a wounded and lost deer. I have shot "field archery" and know I can tune my gear and myself to hit the mark at distances greater than what is appropriate for hunting purposes. Do I still shoot-in at those distances for a "just in case" situation? No! The primary reason I do not is that to do so is wasted time and effort. Why should I spend the time, and sometimes deal with the frustration, to setup and tune my gear and tune myself to hit the mark at a distance that I will/would never shoot while in the field? My gear, my form, and my mental conditioning are tuned to hit precisely where I aim, up to 35-yards. I use one pin set for 25-yards. I know exactly the "Kentucky elevation" for all distances greater than 25-yards up to 35-yards. Why do I limit my practice and setup to 35-yards? Because in the area I hunt, and in accordance with appropriateness, 35-yards is the maximum yardage I will shoot to avoid (just) wounding and loosing a deer. Barring Murphy's presence, I have total confidence I can make the shot, even though I do not shoot 80-yard targets. Dependant upon the capability of the gear and the shooter, beyond a certain distance there are common and inconsistent forces that come into play that can and will affect the flight of the shaft and your accuracy on target. A novice and average shooter not understanding what these forces are, or that they are **"clenching" their form because the distance is stressing them, will begin to make, and keep making, adjustments in their gear and in their form that is unrelated to the long-distance bad shot they just made. Before long, their entire setup is out of proper adjustment and now they are not confident about their form, whether they ever had good form, have great difficulty getting back their form, and begin to suspect that their gear is junk. I have seen it happen more than once. I am also aware that some shooters will become so frustrated with adjusting and readjusting their gear and their form, they just go into the field with what they have and hope that luck is with them. [i]** The term "clenching" is what we used to use to describe what a shooter does when under stress (target panic). I have seen it (clenching), and I know many other shooters have seen it, even experienced it.[/I[ The shooter's entire body begins to become rigid, their muscles tighten, they hold the bow tightly, their bow arm goes out rigidly straight, their bow shoulder rises to their jaw, they start to hunch or lean back, their eyes begin to squint, they open their mouth, their string arm begins to creep, and they punch the release. I have witnessed some to actually close their eyes at the time of release. All this to learn to shoot at a greater distance than is necessary, a distance you will not shoot, and a distance you should not shoot? I think not! If being able to hit the mark at 60, 70, 80-yards could actually provide the confidence and ability to make closer shots a "piece of cake," then, setting up your gear, acquiring your form, and constantly practicing to shoot only at the maximum distance you will ever shoot should be so easy, all you would have to do is hand your bow to the deer and let them commit suicide. I spend my time and effort, and instruct others, to setup their gear and practice at the maximum distance they will shoot in accordance with their abilities, give or take 5-yards. Rather than wasting time and effort setting up and practicing shooting at distances that are unrealistic, I spend time practicing to shoot through, above, and under, minor obstacles. One of the payoffs of conditioning myself not to be intimidated by minor obstacles, and learning to shoot past or around them, is that when I setup my stands or ground blinds, you, or deer, will hardly notice any cutting. Last Saturday, from a ground blind, at 24-yards I downed an 8-point buck, having hit him precisely where I aimed. I had to shoot through 7" wide "Y" branch that was in a small opening. Had I not practiced these types of shots under said conditions, I would not have had the skill and confidence to make the shot. On the other hand, if my confidence was out of proportion with my skills, I might have taken the shot only to have blown the shot or wounded the buck but never recovered him. Learn to shoot and hit the mark at 80-yards if doing so is your bag. I will setup my gear and spend my time learning to be consistently accurate at the maximum distance I will ever shoot while hunting deer. Rather than waste time on the impractical, I use the time to learn and practice shooting under as many conditions as I know I can be confronted with in the field. Some might wax my butt at 60, 70, 80-yards on a target range, but in the "boonies," I might just leave some whimpering and babbling to themselves. :) PS: Being that Cargo had to ask the question he did, is an indicator that he is a novice or a skilled but average shooter. I mistakenly thought he was trying to ready himself specifically for bowhunting and bowhunting conditions. I now see he was trying to find out how to dust butt on a "target range." Big difference. Edited by - c903 on 11/07/2002 17:57:08 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
c903-
If you don't think that when an archer starts practicing at longer distances and sees the progress of better tuning and better grouping that their confidence in their ability is NOT increased- you're nuts. Plain and simple. And if you don't think that when an archer can CONSISTENTLY group well at all distances that it doesn't make a 20yd shot look easier- you're nuts. And if that's the case, there's no need to continue this conversation. There are more than just NOVICE shooters that are browsing these boards. And this board is NOT just about bowhunting- it is titled "Technical", not Technical Bowhunting. You are approaching this issue from the angle of people shooting a bow to harvest a deer. I am approaching this issue from the angle of people shooting a bow as ARCHERS, not just bowhunters. People that like to do it for fun and enjoyment. People that want to shoot all year around for the enjoyment of the sport, bettering themselves, and their abilities. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why should I spend the time, and sometimes deal with the frustration, to setup and tune my gear and tune myself to hit the mark at a distance that I will/would never shoot while in the field?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> My point exactly. Because you are more interested in bowhunting than in archery itself. Not that that is a bad thing, but people should realize your slant on the situation. There is so much more to shooting a bow than just bowhunting. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Novice and average shooters who eventually develop the skill to hit the mark at a greater distance than is needed, or a distnace that is appropriate and realistic for hunting purposes, but do not constantly practice or do not consistently hit the mark, are likely to aquire "overconfidence" or a "misguided confidence" of their abilities and their gear's capabilities for hunting conditions. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I couldn't disagree with that statement more. A shooter who can not cosistently hit the mark will not be developing "overconfidence". Hardly. If a shooter doesn't practice enough- they won't be hitting the mark either- and certainly won't be subject to "misguided confidence". For anyone that has practiced their hunting ranges quite often, and then tries their hand out at longer ranges- it is humbling. Very humbling. And instantly I see the motivation in them to improve that. I see interest in wanting to know how to better themselves, their gear, their results. I'm glad you have total confidence using your methods. As do I using my methods. I never said that my way is the best, but just be open to giving it a try. You on the other hand have labled the idea of possibly wanting to be an ARCHER instead of just a BOWHUNTER as "absurd and unrealistic". I would like to further our sport of ARCHERY, not just bowhunting, to more people, and not limit them or their abilities. Plant the seed of motivation and interest and watch it grow instead of telling them that the world ends at 30yds. Edited by - Black Frog on 11/07/2002 22:27:42 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I've been leery to post on this thread as I find some of the posters rather ignorant .
So, I have only this to say to Cargo 1) You will go nowhere, stagnate, and eventually decline in ability if you decide to rest on your laurels. 2) You have my respect for having the desire to improve yourself. A huge percentage of archers regardless of what they are shooting at could use an attitude like yours! 3) In addition, Pinwheel's tuning advice is sound. Use it. JeffB :) |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
I consider group tunes the ones like The Supremes, The Temptations, The O Jays and the list goes on...Now them groups got some good tunes...
BTW, I'm a huge Nuge fan and I love all his groups tunes too... |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I consider group tunes the ones like The Supremes, The Temptations, The O Jays and the list goes on...Now them groups got some good tunes... BTW, I'm a huge Nuge fan and I love all his groups tunes too... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> ROTFLMAO... Beautiful... And now for something completely different.... The LARCH.... The LAAARCH.... JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
c903, you mention an archer acquiring confidence, after learning to shoot well at long distance, taking a ridiculously long shot as a result of the new found confidence. If that be the case, the decision to shoot was ill advised, but probably would have been taken anyway. Being confident in your abilities beyond hunting distances doesn't give rise to taking foolish shots. Being foolish does. I have yet to allow confidence to influence me to take an ill-advised shot. I restrict myself to 25 yds, getting close is the thrill for me. I practice to 50 yds, because I can. When I move up to 25 yds, I feel extremely confident, both in myself and my setup (which I tune as precisely as I can). I have not been into archery a real long time. At least not to the degree I presently am. I've dinked around with bows a lot of years, though not very seriously. I've learned alot and come a long way since deciding to get more technical, and beginning to push myself (shooting more and longer distances). I feel the only way to improve is to try new things and see what works, and what doesn't. Shooting longer distances helps my concentration. If concentration lapses at 50 yds, the result is not pretty. At 20 yds it's not so bad, but enough to bother me. The resulting improvement in concentration, from longer distance shooting, helps my 20 yd shots. I can see no harm in trying to tune my bow to the best of my ability. Believe me, it's gone the wrong way with some attempts. That's how I've learned what, and what not, to do. When things go right I feel very pleased in my accomplishment. When not, I'm glad I measured everything so I can regroup and restart.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> IMO, the more an archer/bowhunter tinkers/learns their setup, the better they'll be for it. And being able to shoot well, and practice, at ranges beyond normal hunting range should never preclude good judgment.
BTW, Pat, you forgot to mention Mountain and Led Zeplin.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> Phil. "Could you guys be quiet, my dad's trying to shoot."<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Edited by - pdq 5oh on 11/07/2002 22:06:08 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
pdq 5oh-
Your statements are exactly the situation I was trying to convey. I see people at our club in the same boat you are, and I've seen them improve a great deal. Just because an archer can group well at 50yds does not mean that their self-discipline just flew out the window once they get in a treestand and they'll start taking outrageous shots at animals. I whole-heartedly agree with you. Bowtech shooter- I suppose then when I really screw around too much with my setup and I'm all over the place that it can be considered a "looney tune"? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Edited by - Black Frog on 11/07/2002 22:29:27 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Black Frog
As it is with any debate, divulging both sides of the story and playing "Devil's advocate" are common and indispensable tactics, used to solicit as many opinions and as much information available about the subject at hand. In the end, each person freely makes their personal choice(s), but are better informed to make the right choice(s) that is best for him or her. The primary rule used in most debates is: Content and strategy are worth little unless you deliver your material in a confident and persuasive way. One definite indicator that a person may be emotionally ill-equipped to tolerate opposing views and/or a challenge to his or her views, and seriously believes there is no other way but his or her way, is when he or she unnecessarily resorts to the use of derogatory terms to specifically address an opponent, and then threatens to take their ball and go home. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>”...you're nuts. Plain and simple.”<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>”..you're nuts. And if that's the case, there's no need to continue this conversation”<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>. Another indicator that a person is not too well equipped to handle opposing views is when the person takes something out of context and rephrases what was actually said in an attempt to enhance his or her argument and discredit their opponent. I did not say... or label: <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>”You on the other hand have labled the idea of possibly wanting to be an ARCHER instead of just a BOWHUNTER as "absurd and unrealistic".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> What I did say, was: "..all other shots at a much lesser distance becomes a "piece of cake." Of the many absurd and unrealistic statements commonly made here, that advice and belief takes the "whole cake." That comment contained a paraphrase of something you said, and my statement of “absurdity” and “unrealistic” was specifically and clearly directed at your statement that clearly indicates you believe mastering a long shot makes shots at a lesser distance appear as cake. <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>”If you can tighten up your groups out to 80+yds, and practice long distance shooting, it makes those 20-30yd hunting shots look like cake<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> I don’t know about you, but I put the same serious effort and concentration in making a 10-yard shot, as I would in making an 80-yard shot. http://www.bowhunter.com/editorial.html Edited by - c903 on 11/08/2002 01:14:36 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
c903-
I'm done with this thread. Also in debates, when a person fails to recognize the obvious truth in front of them, there is no use in furthering discussion- because there is none to have. It is like talking to a brick wall- and I have better things to do with my time. You're right- I apologize for calling you "nuts". I shouldn've more correctly stated that the idea that an archer can NOT better himself by shooting longer distances is ridiculous, ludicrous, and preposterous. Nowhere did I ever say that I did not put as much effort and concentration in making a 10yd shot as I would in a 80yd shot. I SAID a 20-30yd shot looks easier when you can do well at ALL distances and have the confidence of knowing it. Your link to the article means nothing other than what I, and others have been saying all along that self-discipline is a personal resposibility. There are jerks everywhere, and there always will be. That is all- Have a good day sir. |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Let me just add this--
I feel that any tuning that helps get your bow closer to "perfection" is worth doing, as does dilligent practice at all yardages, even tho you may only be in a hunting situation. However, even tho we should strive perfection, and even tho some of us may get nearer perfection than others on the target range and win a Local, State or even WORLD Championship title,(to answer your question,Siskyou) Game animals are not foam, and there are far too many variables that come into play at the "moment of truth" that you simply cannot have any affect on no matter what. Case in point-- I've been spending the last two days looking for a nice 8pt. The setup was great, I had a nice shot angle on him, 31 yds, but at the shot he dropped and twisted to the right (he was facing left) and the shot took him in the shoulder. Upon inspection the arrow only penetrated about 3" or so until it hit bone, and then came back out in a glancing blow. Let me add that my bow is quieter than an MQ1 with limbsavers and whiskers on it. It is as quiet as any bow out there practically, so I had done all I could do there also. We followed this deer for a total of 16 hrs, mostly because we had snow in spots and could. He clotted up overnight, and the job was tougher yesterday due to little blood. But I always follow up my shots, and do not give in until I either find the animal, lose him totally, or figure he will survive after a thorough search. This deer traveled over 2 miles before we lost him in a pine grove with no snow, (and he still was moving fine) so I think he'll be OK. It's only the second deer I have lost but it is still very depressing and makes me wonder what I could've done better? But the answer here is you cannot control the mind or thoughts or reactions of the animal EVERY time, no matter how good a shot you are, or what you do to try and ensure you can. Moral of the story here IMO is that even if you have extreme accuracy and technique, these things will occasionally happen, and that is part of hunting. My feeling on this is that if we do eveything we can to ensure that we and our equipment are as ready as possible,(tuning, practice, etc) the fewer instances of this scenario will occur. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: How exactly do you group tune?
Sorry about the buck Pinwheel. I too hope he is ok.
"the world ends at 30 yds" BF -good one.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I have always loved the quote (and I don't know who said it): target shooting is about getting as far from your target and hitting exactly where you are aiming, and hunting is about getting as close to your target as possible and hitting exactly where you are aiming. I agree with those who think hunting and shooting targets belong in the same conversation though. I believe in long distance practice and tuning at greater than hunting distances. You just have to know your capabilities so you don't exceed them or you won't improve on anything but your level of frustration. |
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