Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

This will make more sense to those of you following the bowtech vs. diamond thread, the thread was getting a little long in tooth, so I decided to start a new topic with my encounter at the bow shop (notice I didn't say "pro-shop")

I went and shot two of the three diamonds the local bowshop had in stock yesterday.
Heres what I found.

The two bows I shot were the DOA 33" ata w/7"b/h and a 319ibo
and the Undertaker at 33" ata w/8" b/h at 309 ibo.
He had a sniper, but 28.5 ata is just two short and odd looking for me.

The DOA was fast, how fast I don't know because his chrony doesn't work. see side note 1. The hand shock was present, but the bow only had a flipper rest and a knock on the string and the shock was no more than my mathews equipped with a doinker shorty,limbsavers and string silencers. I was shooting a light carbon with 3" fletch and they were screeming into the target, burrying so deep this 6'4" guy that was there had to get them out. The speed is definately there.
With the 7" brace height the string would occasionally bump my forearms inside sleeve after the shot- something I deal with occasionally on my current bow. No big deal, I just have to keep up good form without slacking up.

The Undertaker was a decked out bow with a crappy steel stabilizer, string silencers, some old tech shoot around rest and sights with a peep sight (only tied in on the bottom)on the string and three cushion buttons beneath the nock(?). It also shot fast, but not as fast as the DOA. the handshock was also present, but then again no worse than my rigged out z-light. The extra 1" of brace height seemed like more of what I need, never any sleeve slap with plenty of room to spare.

One item of concern on both was the serving on either the string or cables (forgot which I was looking at) was allready spreading where it rolls off on a sharp point on the cam.

Another concern was the top right portion of the grip area. The riser rubbed my thumb's first knuckle when I had the bow drawn back. This becomes annoying after a while. I had to cut down the grip of my Z-light becuse of this. Do I just have a larger first knuckle than most?? I don't know I've never compared thumb knuckles with anybody elses!!

I like the bows and his discounted prices, I kept going back and forth between the two and just couldn't see which one would get my heart thumping. I liked the high speed of the DOA, but I also liked the 8" brace height of the undertaker. I think what I need is and undertaker with an IBO of 319. Which is real close to what the Hornet has to offer. It is a 30.5" ata with a 7.5" braceheight and an IBO of 318.

I have no idea how accurate I'd be with these bows because one had no sights and the other was not even near sighted in, the sights were just thrown on there not even inline with the string.

I would get the DOA, but I always felt I could be more consistantly accurate with a more forgiving bow than what I have. My current bow has a 7" brace height and 36" ata. With the doa I'd just be reducing the ata and keeping the 7" brace height- therefore reducing the overall forgiveness of my bow. UNLESS the mathews Z-light is just trickier to shoot than most. In that case the DOA might be right up my ally.

He didn't have a Hornet in stock, but could order it for $85.00 over dealer cost which he said would be $455.00 before tax. Having not shot one I'm reluctant to order one. The Doa is priced at $425.00 and the undertaker he wants $499.00 decked out.

I asked how much for the Undertaker if he removed the stuff he had on it and he said $435.00. I said that's ten dollars more than the DOA which has a higher list price. He told me it would be more because it had the string whiskers and cushion buttons-which I don't want because I use a string loop and don't use traditional string whiskers. He told me he'd just leave the cushion buttons on becuase they just add speed anyways-(huh?)

The undertaker is probably all I need as it is a nice bow and felt good. I just would hate to pay more because he put some stuff I didn't want on it.

So here I sit confused, the bows I liked. They are nice bows and at a great price. But buying one from him is just like ordering one out of a catalog little to no tech support. He made some statements that had me convinced he was way out of the loop on this new tech archery stuff and semi rude to boot. Maybe the fact that he runs a taxadermy shop out of his archery shot should tell me something.

One thing I do know is that today after work I'll be going to LOWES and Buying a freezer, then going to the poles to VOTE.

I'll take another day or two to stress over this new bow aquisition.
But my gut feeling is that I need to wait and buy a bow that has me drooling after the first shot and from a dealer I feel more comfortable with. Maybe a 2003, but darnit $425.00 is hard to pass up, or is it?
I'll admit the bows are nice, but $450.00 nicer than my current bow- not hardly. I went home and shot my Z-light (in the rain)So I could compare them. And it was like picking up and old friend. I've been using it for 6+ years, guess I'm just used to it!!

I know this was long and possibly quiet useless for some of you to read. I'm sorry if thats the case.
But some of the guys on this board have been helping me with this Diamond bow thing and I thought I owed it to them to let them know where I stand on the issue. Plus RANGEBALL wanted a report, so here it is.

Thanks for all the help guys and any comments on my quandry would be more than appreciated.

Side note 1 chrony doesn't work - go figure, three out of the four proshops I've frequented in the past keep broken chrony's on hand and say "It doesn't work". I told him I a chrony at home and he looked at me like your supposed to have a liscence to operate one.

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Dave, go with your gut and wait. I'd even call Diamond and have them recommend other shops in your area that carry their stuff, call them and see if they have a hornet you can shoot, then go shoot it. I think based on what you typed you will love it. If you decide to buy, ask them to match the price you already have quoted by their competition.

I suspect if you buy either of the two bows you shot, you will have nagging regrets and buyers remorse. Thanks for the report, and good luck :)

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Rangeball, Took your advice and called Diamond,
the only dealers in my state were about 250+ miles away. He didn't even list the shop I'm dealing with. I asked him about that one and he said "they might be new".

I asked if I should wait on something new in 2003 and he said that the changes were mostly "cosmetic" in the shorter bows and they were adding some longer bows. He might have told me that to keep things a secret, I don't know.

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Damn, that's gonna be a leap of faith... For what it's worth, the hornet is much more VFT than the two you shot, so you will get the extra speed and brace you want with less vibration and shock than the DOA or Undertaker. Personally, I find the Hornet every bit as quiet and vibration free as the newer mathews bows, and any noticeable shock evaporates with limbsavers and a good stabilizer (I use the NAP shockblocker).

I reiterate, I think you will love the hornet, but understand the position you're in. Knowing what Diamond said, you might ask them to send the local shop one for you to shoot, and see if they'll take it back if you don't end up liking it. I'd bet a dollar to a donut they will, they are awfully good and helpful guys...

Thought I should add, a few weeks ago I was in a Mathews/Hoyt/Parker shop, the pro there shot my Hornet, and was very impressed, even commented on how negligible the shock was and how quiet the bow was, stated he liked it quite a bit.



Edited by - Rangeball on 11/05/2002 14:10:17

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

I will call Diamond back today and ask about shipping one to him. This bow shop guy wants me to pay for it in full before he orders it. I always assumed it would be half down and half on delivery.
Is it normal to pay for it in full when ordering?

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

DaveC-

Glad to hear your report and that for the most part you like the Diamonds. As far as ordering one paid in full, this guy might be on COD with them, and has to pay up-front when the bow arrives, or he may even be on a pre-pay if he's had trouble in the past. Sometimes those things happen with smaller dealers, and it is not something I'd be too concerned about as long as you get a receipt for any deposit made.

I must agree that he doesn't sound like the best dealer around, but you of course must figure in the expense of that 250 mile trip to the next nearest dealer also, and if it is worth not going to your local dealer. Only you can make that decision.

As far as you wanting a more forgiving bow, then the Undertaker or Widowmaker would be the choice, both have brace heights in the 8" range. I merely assumed you were looking for a relatively short ATA bow with decent brace height on my previous posts on the other thread. The Hornet has 7.5", and shoots well for such a short ATA. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Pinwheel 12, couldyou please comment on this statement from my previous post?
[I would get the DOA, but I always felt I could be more consistantly accurate with a more forgiving bow than what I have. My current bow has a 7' brace height and 36' ata. With the DOA I'd just be reducing the ata and keeping the 7' brace height- therefore reducing the overall forgiveness of my bow. UNLESS the mathews Z-light is just trickier to shoot than most. In that case the DOA might be right up my ally.]

When I asked hi about paying in full up front verses half he said that if I didn't show back up he would have to eat half a bow, I said no you will have a bow to sell at full value plus $225.00 of my money. Made sense to me.

Rangeball- your comments on the Hornet keep me interested in it. I'm gonna call when I get less buisy at work and can talk. I've also decided to call some other shops I've delt with in the past and see if there's anything they can do or recommend.

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Dave,

I want to thank you for your comments on these bows. The more you folks talk about them the more and more I become interested. I am going to start looking around a bit to find a Diamond shop in my area. The bows you mentioned have some very attractive specifications.

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Frank, from Diamond's 2002 brochure-

Undertaker- 26-31" DL Brace 8" ATA 33" Mass Weight- 3# 3oz, IBO- 309fps, 2.9" Diameter wide track serving saver idler, sabre tooth post feed mp cam.

None of the rest of their '02 bows with your preferred specs come in 31" draw length... Maybe you can call Diamond and see if they can special you one up to get 31" draw? You really need to shoot the hornet or stinger...

Try it, you'll Like it... :)



Edited by - Rangeball on 11/06/2002 11:46:20

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

DaveC--

If you are happy with your accuracy with the bow and configurations you currently shoot, then realistically there will be no problem with you shooting the same type of setup but of another brand, you just want a new bow which all of us do from time to time. (some of us more than others! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> LOL, meaning myself) If however you feel you may be lacking some in your accuracy, then yes, a more forgiving bow may help you in this regard. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Ok guys, just got off the phone with the OWNER (don't I feel special<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) of Daimond archery after a good 10 minute plus conversatin.
He told me they underproduced the hornet and will not have any available until late December. I said well I guess that solves it. But the conversation continued (nice guy), He said if I really wanted one he would call his other dealers and find me one. I would just have to order it through my dealer and then call him so he could start the hunt for my bow.
The conversation drifted from the subjects of brace height vs. string tavel past the resting point of the string, limb position, ata length, bow grip ect.
I told him about shooting the DOA and the undertaker, but he assured me I wanted the Hornet or better yet &quot;the Stingers the one you really otta try&quot;. I mentioned that the shop had one but I didn't shoot it because it just looked too short. He said if I would have shot it I would have quit shooting the other two bows. And that the stinger is the bow they all shoot over there.
According to him the hornet and the Stinger are the same bows, cams and limbs. All he did to make it a shorter ata was add some riser material at the limb pocket area of the riser causing the limbs to cant back more giving it a brace height of 8 3/8. This makes the bow have even less vibration than the Hornet-which he assure me had less vibration than the two I shot. With it's 8 3/8&quot; brace height he said there was of plenty of room for a large coat sleeve not to get in the way of the string (I tried to talk &quot;more foregiving&quot; but he didn't like that term and told me why it's over used)

Now I'm going to take his advice and see if the shop owner will let me shoot the stinger. The only problem is I'm fairly sure the limbs were 60# limbs. He said it would be no problem getting a stinger as they are not on back order.

FYI- the DOA is rated ~ 3fs less than he normaly gets out of them.
the Hornet out sells all of his other bows
the Hornets true brace height is 7 7/16&quot;
next year he will be trying to get more dealers in TEXAS.

Edited by - DaveC on 11/06/2002 11:30:35

Edited by - DaveC on 11/06/2002 11:33:33

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Curious why they market the hornet as 7.5&quot; brace when it's &quot;true brace height&quot; is just 1/16th under 8&quot;? Seems like this would be a big selling point in it's favor to use the actual measurement, no?

Try calling hoyt or mathews and asking for the owner because you need help choosing one of their bows... :)

Dave, I think you'll be smiling soon :)


Oh yah, if the shop has one, through a NAP shockblocker on the bow after you shoot it a few times. This and a set of limbsavers, and you'll be shaking your head wondering how something this powerful can be so deathly quiet... Mine is, even when shooting 5 grains per # :)


Edited by - Rangeball on 11/06/2002 11:45:02

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

RB,

7 and 7/16 is what I see on the screen. That is less than 7.5&quot; <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave,

Good luck with your search. Sounds like Diamond is a class A outfit!

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

DOH! Eyes were reading 16ths, brain was comprehending 8ths... If it helps, I have a pounding headache, give me a break, will ya :)

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Good idea Dave, the other thread took on a life of it's own.

Anyone care to give an opinion on Diamond's component quality? Axels, bushings, cams, strings, limb pockets, limbs, riser... I like the Diamonds from what I've seen on my screen but I havent held one yet to really look at it.



Cargo

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

CargoF16, as far as the component quality of the Diamond bows they are top notch with maybe exception of the strings. Their factory strings and cables do have a tendency for the serving to seperate where it makes the sharper bends around the cam. When I dropped by their shop Friday that was a topic of discussion and they are testing samples from different suppliers at this time to remedy this. They are good material (8125) but the end servings just need to be better done. Now from my personal experience with my Hornet I can tell you the bows will keep going and going like the energizer bunny. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> While I was at the shop talking to Gary I started to figure an estimate of how many shots I had thru my Hornet and came up with a figure of 12,000-15,000 shots. He said it was about time for a new bow and I just said nope, they built them too good and I have not worn it out yet. This thing still shoots just as good and fits as tight as when it was new. I will admit that I dry fired it once about 3 month after I got it and had to replace the cam and idler. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> I replaced the axels at the same time just for insurance even though they didn't show any wobble when rolled. No other damage and 90% of those shots were fired after this incidence. They are made very well and will hold up. Incidentally my bow is a 2000 model and I got it in October of 2000 (full 2 years of workout).

DaveC, who did you talk to at Diamond, Gary or Josh? Just curious they are all great guys. They are by no means the largest manufacturer and as Josh said Friday they don't want to be. I wish you lived a little closer to central Louisiana and maybe we could arrange to meet and let you try out my Hornet. It might just make you grin. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

8pt,
where are you in La. I'm up in Toledo Bend area--Many. Those Diamonds shoot real good, have a friend with DOA. I'm probably gonna get new bow after this season but don't really know what yet. Kind of looking into the Martin Family

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Hawgdawg, I am just a little north of Pineville. I was looking hard at the DOA but just can't wear my Hornet out to have an excuse to buy a new bow. :)

RE: Shot two diamonds- novice report
 

Well I went to the lack of pro-shop after work and shot the stinger. I was all ready to either order a hornet or walk out with the stinger. I brought along both of my current bows and my chronograph along with enough cash to make it happen (he doesn't have a credit card machine).

The stinger was only a 60# bow that pulled 66# according to his scale (but didn't feel like it at all) and set with a 28&quot; draw length.

I shot my Z-light at 67# with my arrow through the chrony at 255 fps.
The DOA shot the same arrow at 70# pull at 270 fps.
The stinger only flung it at 244fps.

The stinger didn't do much for me. It felt weird, but probably had more to do with the 60# bow at 28&quot; draw. I shoot a 29&quot; draw.


I like the way the diamonds shot, but must correct a statement I made earlier refering to the shot shock. My rigged out bows shock was much less than these bare boned bows. I previously stated they were equall, but when shooting them side by side I could tell a big difference. I'm sure some limb savers and a stabilizer would make this a non-issue.

My only concerns were the seving showing wear at the sharp angles on the cam and the fact that the non adjustable cable guard looked as if it needed to be further out. When at full draw it looked as if the cables were too close to my srrow for proper fletching clearance.

All in all the hornet looks like more of what I'd want.
I liked the speed of the doa, but must wonder what my bow would shoot if the limbs could go up to 70# or what the doa would do at 67#'s.

I decided to stick with my current set up as it still works for me. A testiment to older mathews maybe? All I know is that after 6 years the new bows I shot weren't that much better.

Had I had a different dealer I'd probably left with a hornet on order.
This guy was scaring me with some of his statements to the point that I wouldn't buy anything from him.
I must remark on one of them- I asked for the light carbon I was shooting the day before and he handed me an arrow with carbon shards hanging off the side. It looked like someone bent it over their knee and made it crack in half. I told him he needed to throw it away before someone got hurt and he remarked that all it needed was a little superglue and it would be all right!!

After I decided not to buy I handed him a $20.00 bill and apologized for waisting his time. He tried once again to sell me on a High country, so I pulled one back and oouuch!! I could feel the 70# pull from the word go all the way until the cam broke over-no way Jose!!

Thanks for all the help Guys, when Diamond gets another dealer in my area I'll go look at the Hornet. But for now me and my z-light are still gonna haunt the woods together. Driving away I knew I had made the right decision.