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I SHOOT A MATHEWS OUTBACK WITH AN 60# POUND PULL AND 28 1/2 INCH DRAW. MY ARROWS ARE BEMAN ICS 400 AT 29". WITH A GRIM REAPER SPLIT FIRE BROADHEAD 100 GR. I WANT TO KNOW IF I SHOULD GET AN OVERDRAW OR REDUCE MY BROADHEAD TO AN 85 GRAIN TO STILL HAVE THE PENITRATION AND HAVE MORE SPEED. I USE QUICK SPIN VANES AND HAVE AN WISKER BUSKIT. BUT IM STAYING WITH THE WISKER BUSIKET.

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You should be shooting at least 5 grains/lb. At 60 lbs. that is 300 grains. Depending on what your shooting these arrows for, your setup will be different. I'll assume a hunting setup. You should be using a 100 grain point, 29" Carbon Express 250 (or Equal). 4" vanes for hunting. This setup will put you just over 300 grains.

If you want to gain a few fps. Remember that the more you put on your bow string, the slower it will be. The only thing you need is a peep. You'll never get a second shot. If you do, good for you.

I don't think you'll ever get the fps that Mathews advertises. The are about 20 fps high on every bow they make. I have an Outback as well, sure it's quit, but it's slow as hell too. Good enough for hunting Whitetail, but slow. Even their new Apex at 29" draw is only 280 - 285 fps. For 1300 bones that's false advertising.

Good luck!

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Don't go to a 85 grain tip...it will throw your FOC out of limits and make your arrow too light for hunting. I was told never to go any lighter than 370 grains for a hunting arrow. I'm at 395 grains and several people that are experts in my area say that is still too light. Making arrows lighter for more speed is the wrong direction. Keep the right arrow for the animals sake and change the bow if speed is your priority. If you still can't get the speed you want then you should concider being happy with the speed you have. Clean kill with high KEand good penetration should be your first concern. If you happen to get higher speeds, that's just a plus.

You should at least give a BowTech Bow a try and see how you like it. Their advertised speed is right on the money. Not trying to start a war about what bow is better, just saying at least try it out. I was set on getting a Mathews Ovation until I shot the BowTech. Keep an open mind and give it a try. If you don't like the BowTech at least you will be reassured that the Mathews is the best bow for you.

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I'm with MilDot... Even if you drop 100 gns in arrow weight and strip down the string accessories, I doubt you could see much more than an extra 20 fps, and you'll have to use a chronograph to see the difference. It's just not enough to really change your trajectory or sight settings. And you'll be giving up some penetration potential to do it.

If you want significantly faster arrows, you'll need more draw weight or a bow that'll give you more speed. If you decide to cut the arrow weight for what little extra speed it'll give you, you'd need to increase the draw weight a bit anyway, just to keep the same penetration capability.

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I would not worry about the weight of your current arrows. I am a little confused with what kind of broadhead you are using. Is it a Grim Reaper or a NAP Spitfire? Either way, they are both mechanicals and you should not be using them with your light weight setup. You are not making enough kinetic energy for a mechanical head. Switch to a fixed blade and you should have enough speed and KE to have pass throughs.

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I MIGHT LOOK INTO GETING A MONTEC FIXED BLADE OR A MUZZY.

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I don't know who told you that but i shoot 65 pounds and my arrows weigh 328.5thats 5.05 grains per pound and i acheive pass throughs!!!!!!!!jmo

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BROX,

I believe I'm shooting an energy cam bow, 31 inch draw length,70 poundbow set at 62 pounds draw weight. According to the chart below my minimum total arrow weight is 392 grains. I'm currently at 395 grain total weight. That's cutting it close in my book.

Here is a quote from another web sight:
"However, since the IBO Standard applies at most 3D courses, many competitive shooters setup their arrows to weigh exactly 5 grains per pound. This keeps them just within the rules while providing the fastest possible arrow speeds. However, bowhunters usually choose arrow weights between 5 and 9 grains per pound. Later on in this guide we'll use an online arrow weight calculator to build a simulated set of arrows, so you can make sure that your arrows will be the appropriate weight for your bow before you actually order them".

Yes you are just within the 5 grians per pound which is good for competition,but for hunting purposes that isn't recommended from what I have been told. I understand you are getting pass throughs, but that's under perfect circumstances in my opinion. If that works great for you, which it sounds like it does, than that's great. However, I choose to go a little heavier and the link below will show you where I got the information from. I'm at 6.4 grains per pound, not heavy by any means.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/arrowhelp/AMO-Minimum-Arrow-Weight-Chart.htm

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I was just wondering who was telling you that because a had never heard of such thats all.

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There are a lot of threads in here that discuss/argue about arrow weight. Some want light weight for speed, others want heavy weight for penetration. It's like a discussion between Ford and Chevy truck drivers. It will never end and the other side will never open their minds. Both light weight and heavy weight have advantages. Both have disadvantages. Shoot whatever feels comfortable to you but also know that going too light is bad for your bow.

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Well, the argument threads tend to polarize, don't they G2. ;)Of course, some guys think you're talking about hurling telephone poles when you say 400 grains.:eek:

Going extra heavy is just as bad an idea as going extra light, except you don't have to worry about tearing up your bow with extra heavy arrows.

The real answer is the same one that's been around since well before compounds. "For hunting, use the heaviest arrow that will still give you acceptable trajectory." What is acceptable trajectory? That's for the individual to decide.

Within 30 yards, trajectory doesn't vary hardly at all between an arrow at 5 grains per pound and one at 8 grains per pound. If one limits his shots to 30 yards, might as well use the heavier arrow. The extra weight carries more energy from the bow and carries it further downrange than the light one. More energy at the animal = better penetration.

Beyond 30 yards? If I ever decided it was worth taking a bow shot beyond 30 yards (might as well be using a rifle, IMO), I'd still use a moderate weight arrow and a rangefinder. Ultralight arrows give you a tad more leeway in yardage estimation, but not that much. A hunter should still know the exact distance to the animal. And, since the moderate weight arrow would start off with more energy at the bow, and carry a bigger percentate of that energy downrange than the ultralight one, it makes sense to me that it'd giveme better penetration and improvemy odds of making a quick, clean kill. If all doesn't go according to plan and I hit bone, the extra bit of energy can't hurt my chances of busting through it and into the vitals.

Super flat trajectory is nice to have, but I'dmuch prefer to increase my odds of making that quick, clean kill.

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Arthur,

This is a great comment..."Going extra heavy is just as bad an idea as going extra light".

I'm currently at 74 ft pounds of KE. I have played with all other arrow weights for my bow. If I go any heavier the KE starts dropping down below69 ft. pounds, plus I get more drop in my balistics (4 inches more drop at 30 yards).
If I go any lighter, the KE starts dropping down and I get weak spine signs while paper tuning. I believeyou are correct if a person takes the time to figure it all out, they will find that there is a sweet spotwhere you aregaining the best of both worlds. I believe I have found that sweet spot with my set-up. Happens to be at 6.4 grains per pound of draw weight for my bow at it's current configuration.
Now when theday comes that I will be able to increase my draw weight from 62 poundstowards 70 pounds,then I will have to go up in arrow weight to remain in that sweet spot. I think we can all agree on that. Well, I hope so anyway. Nice talking with you all.

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I'll add that flat trajectory is always nice to have, but can you get your fixed blade broadhead to fly accurately in high winds on those long shots, with a light arrow? Probably not...

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Yes. I have shot my 352 grain arrows with fixed blade broadheads on windy days at my target set out to 30 yards and they have been accurate. I have not tried farther than that but I limit myself to 35 yards anyway.

There are several factors to consider when shooting on a windy day.
- If you are in the woods, wind is not as much of a factor as if you are in the open.
- If you are in the open, you should watch the vegetation between you and the animal to determine when is the optimal time to shoot. If the wind is gusting and you are losing an oportunity to shoot, don't take the shot. It doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is. A 20 mph gust of wind will deflect my pickup truck while driving.
- And not to beat a dead horse but if the arrow is traveling faster, there is less time for wind to alter it's course.

This whole subject is full of Catch22's and we could argue till the end of time. Shoot whatever you are comfortable with and what is safe for your bow. Don't condem others for there choices.

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deleted for double post

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But arguing can be fun....:DLet's keep going with this. I'm determined to get you guys shooting 395-420 grain arrows. I now have a purpose for the day. Don't get mad, I'm having fun here.

G2,

"And not to beat a dead horse but if the arrow is traveling faster, there is less time for wind to alter it's course".

Compare an arrow at 300 fps to a arrow at 275 fps. Notthat big of a difference. Looks like 3 hundreths of a second. Not even a tenth of a second. What the heck?

See middle of page on link below.
http://www.huntersfriend.com/arrowhelp/arrow-selection-5.htm

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But I like my 550 gn arrows! I don't wanna go that light! :D

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550...holy smokes Arthur. What are you hunting450 pound wild boar?

Believe me as soon as I get my back muscles in shape and dial my bow up to 70 pounds, I will be shooting a 481 grain arrow to take full advantage of what my bow has to offer. What KE are you getting, that is insane. HAHA![:-]

I was wrong to put a number range on the "best" arrow weight. Each bow and each persons set-up has it's own sweet spot. My best weight of arrow may not be the best for somebody else. I will admit to that. G2 are we still friends? [&:]

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A few things that will give greater downrange speed are , small vane fletching , say 2" rather than feathers or quickspins or large area vanes like blazers , small diamater shafts , and light weight . But as allready stated these things are geared toward field target archery at long distance , for hunting these type of arrows are far from ideal . Give me alluminum shfts with 5" shield feathers and a cut on contact head , and the deer are in trouble , forget the speed , just hunt ............ or was that wind I forget .

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Well lets see. Not considering speed loss and trajectory.
An arrow traveling at 300fps can go 90 feet in 0.3 seconds.
An arrow traveling at 275fps can go 82.5 feet in 0.3 seconds.
So the extra 7 feet doesn't seem like a big deal and I agree with most about not worrying about weight in regards to speed.

The reason my arrows are so light is that is what shaft shoots best out of my bow. I have some weight tubes that I am going to try but I'm not messing with my setup until after the season. My setup is quiet, fast and deadly. I achieve complete pass throughs and only take optimal shots so I have confidence in it.

Yeah, we're still friends MilDot.

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Actually, since I quit tournament-ing last year, I haven't picked up my compound except to wax the string and make sure it isn't getting crudded up in storage. In fact, my sonfinally decided I'd never use it again andjust claimed it for his own. I've been shooting longbows and recurves in the 50 pound range. Around 35 ftlbs of energy.Low KE so I use a pretty heavy arrow weight to draw weight ratio to make the most of the energy I do get, and to crank up the momentum.

I did have acompound I shot at 6 grains per pound, some years back. My arrows weighed 660 grains though. True story. XX75 2419's from a Martin Cougar XRG cranked to 110 pounds. Don't have a clue to the speed or KE because there weren't many chronographs floating around back then. I can tell you my 20 through 60 yard pins were all grouped within an inch on the sight bar. The club officers had a vote andbanned that bow from the archery range because I was tearing up targets with it. :)

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Since you were responding to me, I'm guessing that you think I was condemning others for their choices. I'm not sure where you got that? Codemnation? I haven't seen that. Simply arguing for a point of view that differs. One that I happen to believe is correct. When it gets to the point where we can't express our point of view in a "technical" forum, then what's the point? Are we here just to pat each other on the back, or to discuss the technical aspects of bowhunting and to debate the pros and cons of the different choices we have? If you think light arrows are as good in the wind as heavy arrows, then keep arguing the point. I will keep disagreeing with you. But, to come on here and argue against my point and then say I'm condemning you because I disagree, seems a tad hypocritical.

By the way, I don't think it's impossible to get good flight on light arrows, in high wind. I just think it tends to be more difficult than with heavy arrows, and that most really light arrow configurations will tend to have a lower FOC, which gives them a greater tendancy to plane.

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Straightarrow, that part of my respose was not targeted toward you specifically. That was just a general staement in response to a lot of posts that I see where one may say another's equipment is wrong and they don't know what they are doing. I usually just hit the reply button on the last post. It's just easier than going back to the original post.

Now to argue statements, since you said what is the purpose of this forum if you can't..... [:-]
You did say "I'll add that flat trajectory is always nice to have, but can you get your fixed blade broadhead to fly accurately in high winds on those long shots, with a light arrow? Probably not..." which sounds like it can't be done. It can and has, but like you said later, it may require more time to tune. But as I also said, a long shot in high winds should not be taken with any setup. Too many variables.
Also you said "and that most really light arrow configurations will tend to have a lower FOC, which gives them a greater tendancy to plane." which I will sort of disagree with. If most light arrow combos that you are referring to are with tips lighter than 100 grains, yes. A 100 grain tip will give good FOC and a 125 tip will almost make the FOC too high.

I don't mind this type of banter. It's just when people get heated and personal that I draw the line. Too many people on this forum get upset over someone elses opinion.

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Ditto. I'm shooting around 540 grains for hunting, and my bow is noticeably quiter, I get better penetration in targets, animals, and through wind - its ALWAYS windy when your less than an hour from the coast.

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You shouldn't read the words "probably not" as "can't". They don't mean that. They mean that it's not likely.


Pick a distance, any distance. Add wind. Which arrow is more stable in that wind?

Too high an FOC with a measly 125 grain tip? Not likely. Too high an FOC only affects trajectory. It makes for a very stable arrow. Even if it's a youngster shooting 35 lbs and a super light arrow, they'll have to limit shots to very short range, and the extra momentum from the heavier tip will be much desired.

Look, all I'm trying to say, is that decisions geared towards faster flight typically make an arrow less forgiving. The only advantage for speed is distance estimation, and that is not something that should come into play on most hunting shots. First of all, they're typically very close, and second, we have lots of ways of getting the distance exact before the shot, ie.. pre-measure, range finders and practice.

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I've been hanging out witha few traditional shooters that use carbon arrows but achieve the extra weight they need and softening up the super stiff spines of carbonsby really loading up the front of the arrow. Stainless steel or brass inserts, 145 gn glue on tips mounted on screw-in adaptors.

They're loading up 300 grains or more in tip weight, but they get wonderful arrow flight with FOC'sthat most would considerridiculously high.

Odd, but their downrange trajectories seem to be very comparable to other guys', when the other guys are using arrows with more conventional FOC's. [:-]

Measely little 125 gn tipsdon't even come close to making FOC 'too high'! They can't. It's not even remotely possible. Frankly, from what I've seen over the past couple of months with those heavy, front stuffed carbons, I'm not so sureany longer that there evenIS such a thing as 'too high' when it comes to FOC.

There's darn sure such a thing as too light though...

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OK, I concede on the too much FOC.