Definition of a PRO Shop
 

I brought this subject up on another forum and it is getting some very positive responses. Let's see how it fairs here.

Some at the AMO and I have been talking about a definition of a Pro Shop for years. It is a very difficult thing to define because you stand a chance of injuring certain individuals. I would like to see a classification or scaling system that would allow a shop to grow or achieve over time.
My definition of an Archery Pro Shop would fall mostly within the following list but would not be limited by it. In other words, full compliance with the list may not be economically feasible for the proprietor. Expertise in certain areas could well override certain tools/equipment.

1. At least two different styles of bow presses indicates that a)the shop is able to handle most styles of bows and b)the shop has enough insight to know that more than one bow press is good insurance to meet the customers' needs.

2. An extensive supply of standard strings and cables. This includes everything from Dacron to the latest materials in all lengths.

3. The ability to listen to the customers' complaints and communicate probable solutions.

4. The ability to diagnose potential problems and offer corrective actions.

5. Trying to fix the customers' equipment before promoting 'new' equipment. What many 'archery' shops fail to realize is that the repair service will keep the doors open during economic turmoil such as we're experiencing right now.

6. Credentials: Certificates and/or Diplomas. This will give you an idea that the person working on your bow has had some training. Anyone can open an archery shop; but, expertise can only be learned. I'm not saying that someone can't learn by trial and error; but, do you want to be the guinea pig? Also keep in mind that trophies do not always constitute technical knowledge. While trophies may add some credibility, I know of a lot of good shooters, that are not good techicians. Their technical expertise is either limited or limited to their specific equipment. In fact, some of them could be better shooters if they wouldn't work on their own equipment. A good analogy would be stock car drivers. Do they work on their own engines and suspension?

7. Tuning techniques and equipment. Do they know how to properly paper tune, group tune, tune for broadheads? Do they have a paper tuning range and do they tune to different distances, do they have an Apple Tuning Machine, do they have a Hooter Shooter? If so, do they know how to properly use such equipment.

8. Reference material: If you ask a question, do they guess or use manufacturers' reference material? Do they guess your draw length or use several types of reference techniques such as the 'wing span' method?

9. Number of technians: Does the chief technician have someone training under him? Does the chief technician ask his other technician(s) for his/her advice? If someone is not in training, who will help you when your main technician is not available. This came to mind as I sit here trying to recover from an operation.

10. Variety of product carried: A good Pro Shop will carry a larger variety and varied price range of products. This applies to not only bow lines but also to sights, rests, etc. Everyone who walks through the door can't afford or doesn't want to get started with the 'best' or highest priced goods.


Now I'd like to here from you. While my list may seem harsh to smaller shops, it is really intended to satisfy the customers' needs. After all, isn't that the gist of what you expect from a PRO Shop? If you have any need, don't you want it satisfied? If you put my list to the test with any of the big chains, you will see that they will fail miserably.

What is intended is to 'qualify' your shop. Please don't take any offense to this list; but, help me set a standard for measurement.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len, great to see you back! I am fortunate enough to be able to do anything to my bows that they need, but if I look at your question from the standpoint that I don`t have the knowledge/time/ability to work on my own stuff, then I would say you just described the ultimate "pro shop".
Of all the shops I have ever been to, a few have had most of the qualities you mention. Most have had only a few of the qualities you mentioned. And none have had all of the qualities you mentioned.
Obviously from what I read on this forum about your shop, you do have all of these bases covered, as Pinwheel 12 does too! This makes you guys pretty unique in the archery world.

IMHO, since most shops cannot go to the level that you are at, I would gladly settle for a shop with the technical end covered. If they can`t have everything on stock in large quantity, at least they can get it!
I hope the guys in your area, and pinwheels, realize how fortunate they are!

NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len, I too live in Maryland, and would love to know where your shop is at. Although new (or reborn) to bow hunting, I haven't found a shop yet that I would go out of the way to go to. I find that they either want to push what they have on the shelf or want you to go with something else.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

The archery shops I'm accustom to know how to write you out a reciept though the hand writing is hard to read. The shop where I bought my Maverick in December of 1999 didn't have a replacement string I could also buy. At the shop where I bought my Patriot the &quot;Tec&quot; will not look you in the eye when talking to him, I think he is all of maybe 23 years old. This shop didn't carry any BowTech quivers or the neat little repair parts kits so I had to order one. Len you must be a blessing to your customers<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>.

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RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len, I am glad to see you back and posting again. I totaly agree with your statements. The problem is I have only seen one such shop in all my travels. I drive a truck for a living, and while I am home every night I do get to visit a bunch of shops. That is one of the reasons I started doing all my own work. I sure wish you would branch out here to the Roanoke area!:)

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len! Well said and I think you hit on the head. I am dealer shooter and have been for years and have everthing I need to tune at home. I shoot for dealer that is 1 1/2 hrs away just because he fills all your catogories. I wouldnt feel right sending friend or fellow archer to shop that is unprossional. I attend most Amo with my dealer and cannot beleive that most dealers have never been. I think it boils down to there are professionals and there guys just going for the sales. My dealer is oldest dealer in state and has been in buisness 29yrs. It is tough buisness being archery dealer.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Good to see you posting Len! I would have to agree with Big Country. My local shop(35 miles) could probably only meet 1 or 2 of your standards. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> For this reason, I end up doing most of my own work also. Earlier this year, when thinking of switching to a MZE, I wanted to see one in person, so off I go to the shop....the answer I get...&quot;What's that?&quot; LOL....honestly it didn't really suprise me.
Anyhow, hopefully your customers realize how lucky they are!! I guess the rest of us, are just lucky that you still frequent this board! Some day I will make it over to your shop....2 1/2 hours away is getting closer every day. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Praying for a speedy recovery for you!

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

There is no such shop anywhere near me. Most of them are not adequate in any of those areas. This has led me to set myself up to do all the work on my bow. I have spare parts, strings, accessories, bow press and string jig. If my bow had a major problem (like a broken limb), during bow season, I would simply go out and buy a new one, wherever I could get what I wanted quickly and cheaply. I will not pay extra at a bow shop, unless I have to. The ones in this area, offer me little and I give them little in return.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Let's see if I can respond to each of your points, Len. I don't own or work in a pro shop so mine is a customers perspective about the pro shop that I visit the most. This is my third serious year in archery/bowhunting.

1) Two types of presses. I can understand and agree with this although the shop I trust only has one that I have seen: a high quality Apple press.

2) I can get three or four brands of strings at my favorite pro shop: WC, Zebra Twist/Tiger Twist, and one other type. Mostly for Hoyts/Mathews/High Country the bow brands that he sells. I was able to choose from several brands of strings for my older MQ-32 on the day I went looking for replacements.

3) They seem to listen and have even talked me out of a purchase because they felt I didn't need a certain 'gadget' to solve a problem. Sometimes they are too busy or hurried to spend a lot of time with you.

4) See #3.

5) See #3. Haven't had any major breakdowns, yet.

6) Have never seen any certificates. Are there certifications out there like car mechanics can earn?

7) They don't have a full size indoor range but can short distance paper tune and chronograph. Never heard of a Hooter shooter until I came on this BBS. Apple tuning machine? This bothers me a lot about this pro shop. They need to expand and build an indoor, even just a 20 yarder.

8) If they don't know the answer, they aren't afraid to look it up. They don't even take my own word for it if they aren't sure themselves.

9) The owner is good and so is the main techie, but the young one in training is a disaster waiting to happen. Don't hire relatives unless they are qualified. He will never be allowed to work on my bow even for something simple.

10) Not a huge line of bows or accessories, but pretty good. Lots of arrows, shafts and parts. Tends to carry the higher end/higher priced stuff, especially the bows. Doesn't look down on anyone, though, if they have an older or entry level bow.

Biggest complaint: Doesn't have enough trained and trust worthy help.
Best point: Doesn't try to sell you stuff you might not need.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Nice post Len and some very good points. I think Big Country pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len, glad to see you back! Hope everything's going well for you. Why don't you start a chain of archery pro shops, say...in the central PA area for starters? :)

The shop I go to normally is a pretty good one. Though I still question one guys' worth there, the rest of the place is sound. They have a two different presses including a big commercial style one. They have a nice, well lit indoor 30 yarder and outdoor setup as well. There selection is pretty good. They seem to have a little of everything, in a lot of different price ranges.

One of the biggest things I have to say about them is the advice. If you are hell bent on something, they will sell it to you, but they will also give you some other suggestions and ask questions just to give you something to think about. If you buy a bow from them, you can shoot at their shop for free for quite a while. They sell quality products and most of the time, their prices arent too shabby either.

But again, Len, how about that chain of Pro Shops? :)

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Glad to see you're back onboard, Len! Hope everything is coming along well!

You nailed most of it IMHO, but especially the part about EXPERIENCE. IMO, you can have all of the money, stock, and equipment in the world, shine it and yourself up to look like a bright new penny, etc, but if you REALLY don't know how to use the tools, or set-up the equipment, it really means squat.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, beats experience in a shop, and a genuine love of the sport. If anyone is into this business for simply the money, might as well quit now, LOL! Yeah you can make a few bucks, but you spend LOTS of hours making it, if I didn't love the sport, I can definately think of many other business to be into that are much more lucrative.

And, you have to be able to communicate with the customers, realize they all do not have the same desires, love of the sport, or money to spend that others do, and set them up according to the depth of interest, and what they want out of it. I always try and take time to give my full attention to each individual customer unless they are content letting my son or other knowledgeable staff wait on them. That is why we do not answer the phone half of the time and let the machine pick it up. If we have customers waiting, THEY are going to ge waited on first. I've been on the other side of that counter, having to wait while the salesman answers the phone, then gets immersed in THAT call, and when he comes back around to you sometime later, his whole train of thought is broken. We do not do that. Our internet customers are a completely different bunch of customers, handled by our staff over there. I answer any &quot;tough&quot; questions myself when I can find time.

And I try to hunt or shoot in between! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> (vacation next week! YAY!)

Takes alot to be a reputable shop owner, but I love the sport and wouldn't have it any other way.

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12



Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 09/30/2002 09:02:42

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[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

As a new owner of a pro shop which I am not a pro. I fall into a few of your catagories, 1. I have all the repair tools to fix bows 2. I can make any arrow to fit 2.I might not know everything but I will sent them to somebody who does. 3. I do it part time because I work a full time job, and I offer great prices and will set up for free because i love it so much I don`t mind. I am not in it for the money I just like seeing people start shooting and hitting the correct way, a lot of shops will not take the time to correctly set up because it takes too long but I have nothing but time. I make all my money on mark up of supplies which is not much, how many people want to drive 1 hr to set up their bow , I didn`t and everybody I set up thinks the same way.

Evan
Archery Accessories
301-872-0110

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

I appreciate all the input and will use the advice to advance the archery profession to the best of my ability. To answer some of your questions and explain some issues, I offer the following:

Big Country and walks with a gimp: No, I don't think many of my customers really know what they've got. We keep on growing so I'm assured that a lot of them do need our help.

hill runner: You've got mail.

bull1870 & wvhunter: Please stop by when you get some time. Keep in mind that the store is not impressive - it's a converted Body and Fender shop. We do, however, have a lot of stock and provide plenty of service.


The Mouse: We have 4 active presses and several in storage. One press is good enough but more is better for the reasons I stated. Talking you out of a 'gadget' is the sign of a PRO Shop. We do it more often than I'd like to admit. Not have enough time may not be a sin but a reality. Remember, if they're good, they'll have a very large customer base. There may be 20-30 bows waiting for their attention. Certifications are available but are not critical if the work they're doing meets your needs and expectations and they meet some of the guidelines I've stated. They'll expand if they can make a decent profit. If that happens, you can tell from these responses that you'll have an exception in your town. If you support them, they'll support you. Tell the owner about this thread and that he might want to consider introductory packages from some manufacturers. Once the shop is established and respected, many customers are willing to pay the extra $ for the professional set up.

muzzyman88 & JDoyle: Sounds like you two have good ones. As you can also see by the responses, consider yourself lucky and support such a shop and make sure you let your friends know that it is a true PRO Shop.

PW12: You're right about allocating your time. Enjoy your vacation. You've earned it. And how well I know that.

jevan: You're in a good location and they need more than what they've had down there in Southern MD. Welcome to the profession and please respect it as a profession. If you don't charge enough for your services, that tells the customers that your services aren't worth it or may make your competition look ridiculous. If you start doing an operation on the side, please don't do it so inexpensive that you make the local PRO Shop look like he's overcharging. Remember, anyone will want you to work on their bow for nothing. And, they'll line up at your door for that free service or marginal markup. Some will also stick you with special orders and other items if you give them half a chance. Just a word of caution. My cousin got caught up in the scenario I just explained. They were all his friends as long as he would meet their needs. Many will surely disagree with the last part of this response; however, I'm talking from experience and not promoting it as absolute.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len,
I will agree with some of your definitions but disagree with others.

1) I have a small shop and do not have room for more than one press. If mine were to brake I could have another one barrowed within the hour.

2) I don't quite understand why I should stock a boat load of strings that may or may not sell, when I can make them on the spot. I feel my money could be used more wisely on other inventory.

3) agree

4)agree

5)agree. I have lots of older bows come in the shop that I repair.

6)totally diagree. I know a man that has probally forgot more about how to work on a bow than most shop owners will ever know and he has no paper to prove it.( I was taught by him) I also know people with PHD's who can't poor water out of a boot with the instructions on the bottom.

7)I can paper tune but do not believe in it. I've seen bows that could shot the best paper tune you could ask for and couldn't group for crap at 30 yards. GROUP TUNING IS THE WAY TO GO. I don't think you need a machine to tell me if I have properly tuned a bow. I can shot it and know.

8)agree

9)I think this will depend on how large or small the shop is.

10)agree. I sell ,for example, rests from around $19.00 to $90.00 and lots of in between prices.

I dont fell that shops should have to quallify for any thing. What is great for your shop in Maryland may bankrupt me in Alabama. If my shop were in a large city sure I would have 10 or more items of the same thing but as it is now I can keep 3 or 4 of the same item and reorder as needed.
I fell that my shop can serve my customer base as well as you are doing yours but only on a smaller scale.


Keith's Arrows & Archery
[email protected]

KEITHSARCHERY

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

I have never been to a shop like you described and I have lived in 4 metropolitan areas in 3 states and lived in one rural college town. I frequented one shop that had an excellent tech, but only one and a very limited selection of gear. I will be travelling through Maryland on business in November (right during the pre-rut <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> ) and I will be sure to plan on stopping at your shop.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Len I know what you mean, but I have a hard time charging friends to set up their bows after they spend 150$ on arrows and miss stuff. I think i am in line with the pro shops up the road and what the mail order sells their stuff for. I dont really mind not charging for a tune up because everyone I have helped have bought at least 20-80 dollars worth of items. I know I don`t know everything and I would love to know how to make strings up or even install new strings but that will come in time because I need a string on my G2. If I screw it up then I will know how not to do it and will take it to someone and let them show me. lord knows I have tinkered with my bows enought and they all shoot great. the only reason I wanted to open a shop is I love archery, I like to have my bow fixed right away and not weight 2 weeks, or drive 1+ hr up the road to get penny items installed, I love the look at somebody as they finally get their bow dialed in after another pro shop charged them 20 bucks and they still cant hit anything, all they wanted to do is sell them a new bow, Point in fact I helped a friends kid with his first bow he had it for 2 years and took it to 3 people who worked on it and couldn`t get it to draw more then 25lbs after I fixed it to pull 40 as stated on the limbs and taught him to shoot groups at 20 yards , he went out 2 days later and nailed a buck and I got a call from him today and he killed a 85lb doe last night and this kid is only 11 years old and just loves to shoot, that is why I got into it.....

Evan
Archery Accessories
301-872-0110

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Three weeks ago I spent the weekend for the Grand Opening Rep. Weekend in a huge outdoor store in Central OH. called Buckeye Outdoors in Buckeye Lake OH. They just built a new store that's 50,000 sq. ft.(old store was around 13,000 sq ft.) and man oh man what a store. I was like a kid in a candy store. I'd say they have over 300 or so bows in stock plus abut the same number of x-bows. They have 3 bow presses and probably every length string and cable ever needed to anyone (mostly z- twist). They probably have over 100 Trophy Taker rests in stock not including the 100's of NAP and GKF rests plus others... I seriously think they have dang near every accessory in stock that one could want... (I know thats not possible but they have it all)... They have 13 employees in the archery dept. alone and everyone of them seem very knowlegdable. This store has so much inventory from low end to high end and everything in between. Prices are the same as any other shops around not too high and not under cutting the next dealer down the road. Labor cost was the same too. This is a privately owned store and I definately consider it a PRO SHOP...If you're ever in Central OH. you should defintely stop in and check em out...

Edited by - BowTech_Shooter on 10/02/2002 11:24:52

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

I don't think there is a formula, though it doesn't hurt to suggest one. I think the person in question is a pro if they know what they are doing, and have good profesional ethics. We aren't trusting these guys with our savings (well I hope not). I don't care if they don't have a bow press at all, or don't have high tech strings. What if they sell stick bows or FITA bows only? If my local shop had an Olympic Gold Medalist, and I was interested in FITA, would I care how many bow presses they had? In general, I think the proposed criterion don't consider adequately shooting skills. If a guy decides to sell only a few brands, and they all fit the one press, and he can order strings, who cares? What would be bad would be the guy puting your bow on a press that might injure it, but that's ethics/education. I don't really care how many bow monkees a guy has in training, what if the guy held really good do-it-yourself seminars so that a lot of the folks could do their own bows? Bows are simple enough that they are pretty much an open book to the right kind of person with some good books or videos, so I wouldn't want to see it get too complicated.

Overall what are we going to do about this? Get AMO to certify what a pro is, and then only let those shops represent Pro Shop product. That isn't a bad idea, if we all want to pay an extra few hundred for our bows. Profesional standards are a good thing if they aren't used to excesively limit competion, and if the economics of the thing can support it. The PGA does a pretty good job but golf isn't cheap, despite all the nonsense about inner city programs to broaden the sport. You have to have the economic hook to hang it on. In golf for a lot of operations (I am told) it is cart rentals. Most of the PGA guys I have run accross aren't all that knowledgeable about gear. They can play the pants off most members though.

To have super pros would be nice, but I am not sure where the money will come from outside the large markets.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

I am just jumping back into archery after about 5 years off. I just purchased the BK II from my local shop. They let me in the backroom where they do all the setp up work, they had three bow presses, a peg board 5'x 5' with nothing but different strings. Had to have 4 or 5 plastic bins with 25 draws each with fleching stuff, another setup like this for inserts & nocks, all labeled even. Also in the back they had to 50 different types of arrows, all set in 6&quot; pvc vertically. They had a paper tuning area back their also. They had a fletching station that had 24 fletching jigs.

They have a 50 yrd indoor range with 15 or 20 animals, & about 10 The Block targets. A box of paper targets to put on The Block also. This range has 20 stations for shooting. They also have a video range @ 20 yrs.

They carry Bow Tech, Parker, Hoyt, & PSE bows, Tox, Trophy Hunter, HHA, Sure Loc sights, All Bow Tech, Parker, PSE asses. All the SKB cases & some cheaper stuff also. They had 5 or 6 different tree stands set up, a feeder setup, & a couple of ground blinds setup. They also have a Big Screen on CMT all day.

I found most of the guys to be helpful, very young. The two guys that I worked with the best was a guy that is a hunter only, & their head tech. I think the shop is the best, but the staff doesn't have many grey hairs. I am only 28, but I do alot of investigation & ask alot of questions that I already may have a good idea about. I just dropped $1100 bucks on a bow & all the fix n's, & I knida feel like they should be more attentive to their customers. Not to mention I dropped off 2 cases of Bud LT bottles & a case of Bicardi Silver for them.

I felt like all of the employee's excluding the Tech & the hunter had no real stance on any products. I asked if I should shoot ACC 3-49's or 3-60's, they new I was looking for speed so they said the 3-49's were fine. But @ the Easton sight, 71lbs, 30&quot; draw, hard cam
says 3-60's. I feel they should know that & imform me that anything less than 3-60's may not group or fly well. When I told the hunter guy, who fletched my arrows, he said he wouldn't have put the vanes on if the order sheet had that info on it. I feel I could have pushed them anyway into any product they had. Give me some input on a rest please, I am using the Martin speed rest it has come lose twice in one day of shooting.

RE: Definition of a PRO Shop
 

Sorry:

Extreme World Achery, Wentzville, MO.

5 miles form my house, but too far from work to hit it @ lunch for practice.