Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Would like to know how many of you actually can get your Field tips and Braodheads to shoot the same? If so, your set up?

Shooting 70# with a 423 grain arow, cx400, 125 tips, 29", around 291fps. Nap quick tune.
I seem to be having better luck with the slick tricks although I am not getting consistant results.either right on or 5 to the right. (could be me?) seem to get a little arrow cork screw in flight??
I was using Rockets but would prefer to use a fix blade for my second trip out west. My Bow has been tuned /paper tuned to a acceptable tear, but still no luck with fixed blades.
Drop away time??

frustrating it is. I can't be the only guy who has had problems with the patriot!
welcome any opinions....

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I've had very similar problems, and I am completely, 100% certain that the cause was me. More to the point, it was my poor form. I wasn't consistently squaring myself and so I was torquing the bow without realizing it, and the single cam Patriot is extremely easy to torque when compared with my old dual cam Martin Lynx. It's also an extremely accurate bow, so when an arrow doesn't go where I expect it to, I'm pretty sure I'm the cause. I've added a tied-on kisser to help me make sure my form is solid. So far, it's working.

As for "drop away time", I would certainly suggest that you switch to a drop away rest. I use a Drop Zone, and since I switched, I know I'll never go back. The performance is better and I find it much easier to tune.

Here's my setup:
03 Patriot @ 66lbs
389 gr Easton Axis 26.5" arrow with 100 gr Liberty Broadheads (2" overdraw to magnify my problems!)
TR Drop Zone

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I have my Muzzy 4 blade broadheads (100gr) shooting right with my fieldpoints. It took some tinkering and fine tuning to get it right. Here is my setup :

'03 Patriot s/c 71#
Beman ICS Hunter 29.5"
GFK Infiniti rest

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

To be completely honest with ya,No I have had no problems at all.My bow was tuned by my friend who owns the shop and myself.It is shooting my field points with perfection,If I do my job,and the broadheads are the same point of impact.Maybe just lucky but not going to mess with success.
My setup
04 patriot
68 lbs-----27 inch draw with NP
CX300 arrows
NAP 3000 micro
Wasp Boss Heads

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I was with TerryM today and he's shooting an 03 Patriot with A.C.C.'s superlite's with Slick Trick 100's ,It was shooting the same as his field point's .I was impressed with the Trick's ,So I'd have to say you might have a string knock problem ,try slightly moving it up ,it should be about 1/4" above the your your rest shelf ,some like it 3/8" .I had a bit of this problem this season and it didn't matter how much i adjusted my sight's ,thing's didn't change ,now that i have figured it out that it was the string nock ,thing's just keep looking better .I'm not saying this is your problem ,I'm just saying it's another area to look .

nubo

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I didn't have a Patriot single cam, but did have 2 Infinity cam Bowtechs (Pro 38 and 40). With both, I had much better luck with prong type shoot through rests than either the Whisker Biscuit, or Drop aways. I saw that the signature lines of the guys who say they are not having problems both are using a similar type of rest. Might be worth checking into.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

i shoot that bow and i go about things a little different. when i tune it to broadheads that's exactly what i'm doing. i find my perfect broadhead tune and my perfect field point tune are just a little different. i bare shaft tune to find nocking pt and then walk back tune to find my centershot. then i go back to 70 yards and see where i'm at. if i'm shooting down the middle, or within a couple inches either way i'm done. if i'm off a lot up and down i may play with my tiller. i usually find my field tips have a little different poi than my broadheads when i'm done. i could get them the same, but it wouldn't be perfect. i haven't tuned yet this year with bh's since i've gone to a floating yoke. i think this may help.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Are you using a quick tune drop away or standard quicktune?

If using a standard one, it sounds like a minor fletch contact problem either cause by improper nock rotation or form. Your arrow spine should be OK.

If using a drop away make sure you set it to stay up LONGER not drop quicker...biggest mistake people make setting up a single cam bow that has some nock travel (like the Pat does).

Also you are shooting@high speed. At those kind of speeds there is very littleto no margin for error in tuning, or shooting form with fixed blade heads.

Once I got a properly spined arrow in mine, fixed blades shot great for me at speeds approaching 290 FPS (assuming I did my part).

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

You are underspined , acc 349s , or 2314s would probably be a better arrow choice , or you could try 75 grain heads .

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

CX400s are actually a .320 spine ijimmy. They don't use actual spine value for designation :)

And from personal experience I can say a 29/70 patriot SC needs more spine than a 3-49 can give at normal arrow lengths

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I have a 04 patriot at 74#. It likes the 3-blade muzzy for some reason. I like the 4-blade but the Patriot prefers the 3-blade. I'm using XX78's and a trophy taker rest. When I do my part they all hit the mark.;)

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Well not much help from the pro shop, I guess I am the minority on this being all the newer Patriots have no problems. He says I need to keep trying different broad heads and wants to sell me a drop away. Now I am all for a drop away but all he will push is the Trophy taker. ( I'll have to do my research on that one)

I don't know , I don't have money to just buy 10 different packages of broad heads and hope i find one that flies. think I will lean towards a drop away and tune from there. maybe my limbs will break AGAIN and I can get a new bow..LOL

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

man, dot that thing in at 20 yards with your broadhead of choice. then go back to 30 and use your 20 pin and aim at a dot near the top of your target. if your arrows are going left of what you're aiming at move your arrow rest a little right, or vice versa if they are going right. then go back to 20 and dot it in again by moving only your sight. then back to thirty. when they are falling directly below what you're aiming at you'll have found your center shot. then shoot a horizontal line across your target from 20 yards. if all the arrows are within 1" of that line, great - you're done. if not put 1/8 turn in your bottom limb bolt and try it again. if it fixes it - you're done. if it gets worse then take that 1/8 turn out and take an extra 1/8 turn out of you bottom limb. that should do it. it could take up to 1/4 turn, but when you're shooting a good horizontal line you're done. after that your broadheads will be flying great - except they are very sensitive to mistakes during the shot process and wind. who cares if they are a couple inches off from your field pts? i don't. what you want is your broadhead tuned to you, and that's how to do it.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Mine were 2002 models (and technically should have been a bit harder to tune than latter models)

You could do *far* worse than a TT drop away. Excellent rest.

BTW, also check for idler lean and adjust your split harness if neccessary.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Jeff, could you elaborate on that????

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

OK here's a laundry list of things to do

1) Make sure your cam timing is correct. If you are shooting with the poundage baacked off this can make broadhead tuning more difficult with a single cam bow that has less than optimal nock travel ( I don't know what year your PAT is, but the 2003/2004/5 models are better for nock travel than the 2002s). It's not impossible however.

2) Idler lean.2 schools of thought. Some folks want the string to track straight off the idler at rest. Others want it tracking straight at full draw. IF the string is coming off at an angle you can adjust either side of the split harness to to bring things back in line. I set the idler at rest, not at full draw

3) Arrows. Your spine seems OK. I don't think you would have an issue. Make sure you are shooting with plenty of helical (not offset) fletch. If you must use an offset to get it clear your nondropaway, then use a BIG fletch. 5" feathers or vanes. At the speeds you are shooting, you need all the stabilization you can get.

4) More arrows. Make sure you have STRAIGHT arrows. Carbon arrows are RARELY straight enough for great accuracy with fixed blades at high speeds unless you are using the premium super straight shafts.

5) Even more arrow stuff: Inserts. They MUST be in straight. At those speeds there cannot be ANY wobble of the broadhead. Use a tool like the Montec thing or the "Sand stone" from Easton ST Axis arrows to ensure the shaft is squared off properly. It also helps to do this on the nock end.

6) Make sure you are shooting a loop, and not off the string.

7) I would really recommend the drop away. This way you can some serious helical on the arrows. If you go that route, contray to what you might think, you want the rest to stay up for quite a aways instead f dropping instantly.Becauseof the nock travel, the arrow i pushed down and then back up If the rest drops too quick this causes all kinds of havoc..as the arrow crashes down....it needs a bit more guidance/direction.

As I said, at 290 FPS on a single cam with some nock travel, and shooting fixed blade heads there is NO margin for error in tuning or shooting form. Personally with that kind of energy and at those speeds I would shoot a mechanical to add some forgiveness when actually hunting and things are not perfect.However you still need toget the arrow flght and arrow issues solved first, as a poor flying mech is bad news, no matter how much speed & energy is involved.

Exact details of your setup would help.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Thanks.:)

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Jeffb, you are a plethora of knowledge! ;)

And just to think all of that savy was going to go to waist[&:].

I think this post may have helped me nail down an issue I've been having, thanks!

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Nah..thats the gravy going to my waist!

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

OOP'S , I ment to say 360s , glad you caught it jeff , I forgot about that with the ce arrows , the number not corrolating to spine . I used to shoot a patriot single , the first year they came out , nice bow , and it did stack fixed heads with fieldpoints . I shot magnus 100 grain heads , and 4" feathers on an offset , could not get muzzys to fly with that particular setup .

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

opps, WASTE, funny come back though........

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

So Jeffb, since your spell checker is catching correct word usage- could you riddle me this?
In your opinion does a cam & half system or other hybrid exhibit better nock travel than a soloswhen let down from max poundage?

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Hope ya know I was just teasin' ya Dave :)

As for your question...depends soley on the individual bow, how it's setup, and how the cam system is designed.

Best horizontal nock travel *I* have seen has been on the Mathews straightline type cams on the Legacy/LX/OB, The PSE NRG single cam,andthe Darton CPS. I have not looked at the new Binary cams. A properly set up Hoyt C.5 or a well designed 2 cam systemhas excellent horizontal nock travel too.

Some bows will never have it regardless of cam because of other issues...lack of QC in matching limb deflections &location of grip on the riser being two big offenders.

That's not the whole picture though. Vertical nock travel IMO is more critical as the shooter can exxagerate that problem much more easily, and it's much harder to "tune" out.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Horizontal nock travel[:o]
Vertical nock travel [:o]

Oh man it's a wonder a deer has ever been killed with these dangfangled contraptions!

Pm heading your way...............

RE: Patriot single cam shooters? update
 

well I bare shaft tuned my bow and got my bare shafts to group with my fletched arrows at 20 yards. Long story short... my knock point seems lower than my rest.
I always thought it should be a little higher????

My arrows seem to fly much better for I lowered my knock point to get the groups together and moved my rest in a little so I am not getting a huge arrow whip. 30 yards differnt story, bare shafts hitting low again. ?? Biggest thing is my slick tricks are hitting dam close to my field points if not right on.

Bare shafts do have a big tail whip to it.. is this normal?

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I shoot with both an 02 and an 03 SC Patriot. They both shot slick tricks with field points out to 65yds. The 03, which as the TT drop away, also shoots wacems, ironhead 100s, turbos and stingers to the same point of impact. The 02 which has a quick tune 1000 fingers, also shoot well with the wacems and turbos provided nocks are good. I number my arrows and in any dozen find several I have to rotate the nocks on or even replace to get them to shoot well in the 02 with the fingers. Interestingly, those same arrows that need a nock rotated or replaced shoot fine with the 03 and its dropaway. My sense is imperfections are magnified by the contact with fingers while the drop away is more forgiving when broadheads are involved. FYI, both bows are set at 70+lbs and shooting 400g arrows (GT 7595) and shoot between 270 and 280fps (the 03 is faster even though it has silencers on the string). I for one am a fan of these bow. If they didn't shoot so well, it would be easier to rationalize a new bow!

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Kraton, I'm a little embarrassed to admit to this in public[&o], but my Patriot is also tuned and shooting very well with the nock point below center. I'm not sure what, how or why and I got real tired trying to figure it out so I just went with what it wanted.
I'm about 1/8" below center at the middle of my string loop.
TodayI put a Phantom, Stinger and Slicktrick inside of 1" from point of aim at 30 yards. (2" groups if you want to look at it that way). And they are shooting w/ my fieldtips.

I'm sure someone with more tuning know how could figure this out, but season is coming on too fast for me to worry about it much more.

My bare shafts are flying like darts and if anything hit a little high. (I always fling one with my3 fletchedshotgroup)

If you put your back to normal do your slicktricks still hit with your fieldpoint? if so, forget the bare shafts- tune for the broadheads.
I'd be more concerned about straight and true arrow flight than how my bare shafts shot.
The slicktrick website has a good paragraph or two concerning this line of thinking. Straight flying arrows carry more energy and allow the arrow to penetrate much better.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

i'd think either you guys are bouncing of the shelf a little bit, or the top limb is pulling a little more weight than the bottom throwing your nock up upon release.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Dave, I went out today and and adjust things some more. raised my knock point back up to a little above 1/8inch cause I just didn't think it should be that way. Bare shafts aside, I have come leaps and bounds on my arrow flight. My Slick tricks now are hitting right with my Field points out to 40 yards. the only thing that has baflled me is My Bare shafts are flying with a tail high or knock whip high which results in them hitting low no matter where I move the knock point. I even played with the rest tension?? need to investigate some more options... drop away next.

Either way I am deadly right now so i will wait till I am back from Co. It just bugs me those bare shafts are not flying right, which tells me something is still wrong. compared to where I was at though, It 10 times better and I was a good shot before.

I will have to try cranking my top limb out .

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Good thinking Gibblet. I did pull 1/2 turn out of the top limb bolt using the advice given from Arthur about drawing straight to the target. After doing so everything still shoots ON, butI didn't try moving the nock up or rest down to see what would happen. I'll try it today ifnI get a chance.

Just remembered, whenI was tiller tuning my bow (WB rest)I took up to 1 1/2 turns in & out of the top limb to no avail. I will lower my rest to level today and shoot a few just for grins, if nothing changes it's going right back to it's current location.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I got mine tuned last week. I am pulling 71 lbs @ 29". For hunting I am shooting a 28 1/2" Gold Tip XT 75/95 with 125 grain points, and 4" vanes on top of a wrap on the back end. First get your centershot right, this should be the easy part if your are relatively close to the correct spine. Then, making sure your rest is level with the plunger hole, setup your nock point 1/8" high. If you need to make adjustments to the nock height, move the nock not the rest. The rest should always be at the same height as the plunger hole.

I always make sure the bottom limb has an extra 1/4 turn of limb bolt when compared to the top as well. It shoots bullet holes in paper this way and groups my Slick Trick 125's at about 4" at 50 when mixed in with my field pointswhen Iam doing my part.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Hey Rick, what rest are you using?

I'm shooting 28.5" ics 340'swhich should spine real close to your arras, but I and haven't considered 125 grain heads for them??

You put 1/4 turn in the bottom bolt, I took 1/2 out of my top- should be close there.
If your at 71# right now, what does your bow max at?

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

My bow is a bit of a freak........it maxes out at about 75 according to two different sets of scales. I am using the dropzone guide series.

Also on another note..........it took me a while to get the timing of my dropzone down. Before I had this setup properly, I was getting all sorts of weird tears that needed to be fixed. Moving the rest all over heck didn't fix anything. I finally timed the drop zone so it barely hit the full up position when my bow hit the draw stop pegs. The weird tears then dissapeared instantly and the bow tuned well.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I'm glad to see you endured the good fight.I was battling my dropzone and trophy taker so muchI gave up and put them on the shelf. Same problem- weird tears all over the place that wouldn't leave no matter whatI tried.
AndI tried everyting EXCEPT!!!- reducing the amount of time the arm was up[&o].I increased it's support over and over to the point where it was pulling on my cables at full draw. I never reduced it to the point of barely being up at full draw. Now you tell me;).
When I did have it tuned and shooting well before my string & cable swap I had it coming up about 2.5" before full draw so that is where it started out this year before I moved back a little at a time.

Oh well, it's staying the way it is this year( might play with the nock a little, but that's it). I've got it shooting well and am using a restI have faith in. It was quieter with my drop zone though.

Oh the joys of the infinity cam (at least in my world).

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

all the arrow flight issues I was having.. now since I have tuned my bow to shoot alot better, still nees work but, slick tricks fly great. I found a Cx 300 at the range that was shorter than my arrow so it must be lighter. it shoots great out of my bow. All this under spined crap I got from ther shop and here I can shoot a 300 now, that fly's great. one more thing to add to the confusion.

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

Kraton, I'm not familiar with carbon expresses spine ratings.

Are the 300's not a stiffer spine than the 400's?

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

I was under the impression the were NOT as stiff. ?? and Lighter??

RE: Patriot single cam shooters?
 

If I'm reading this chart right, it looks like you are correct.
400's= 8.6 gpi
300's= 8.0gpi