HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Hi everyone,
I'm new to the site and have come here in search for answers. I shoot a 2005 Bowtech Defender VFT 28.5" draw, 66# bow w/Easton ST axis 340's, 100 grain tips, trophy ridge dropzone rest, string loop, tru-fire release, and tru-glo site. I have had an impossible time paper tuning my bow. I was shooting a whisker biskuit and constantly had a upwardright tear in the paper from as far out as 10 yards. I tried every adjustment possible and could not get anywhere close to a "bullet hole" Today I switched to a trophy ridge dropzone hoping that would help me solve the problem. No luck, instead my problem is even worse!!! If I paper tune at 10ft I get a right tear that is almost 3"long !!! No matter what adjustment I make to the rest I can't shrink the tear. I've tried shooting Axis 400's w/no change. I've tried 125 grain field point w/no change. I've moved the nock up and down over a full in w/no change. i've moved my rest left and right over it's full adjustment range w/minimal change. I've experimented w/my grip and can make the tear worse but not better. My arrows appear to fishtail badly but I can't fix it!! The oddest thing is the nock is properly set, (per bowtech's technical department @ "0" on my square) the arrow is centered from left to right and the fletchings don't appear to contact anything. Any changes I makedon't have any effect on my tear. They should but they don't!! ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

sounds like your timing is off.i don't know if you have bow press or not but check your manual and see where your timing is supposed to be.or you can download it off bowtechs site.how new is this bow?after about 50 to 100 shot the new string and cable stretch a little bit and you have to put some twists back in them.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

My cams have timing marks on them and both are within the manufacturers marks. I have shot the bow heavily probably 15-20shots/day average since february when I purchased it.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Take it back to the shop you bought it from and see what they think. I'd say it was contact somehwere, but if you changed rest, I'm confused.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I thought it was contact too which is why I went to the drop away rest to eliminate that. I took it back to the shop and they said theye's no reason it should be doing the fishtailing. I wonder about my arrow spine according to easton's chart 340's are a bit heavy. 400's are what I should shoot. Could this cause the extreme fishtailing?

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

BowTechs seem to like a bit stiffer arrow than the easton chart says. Make sure the launcher arm is not dropping too soon on the DZ. You should be fine with the 340's.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I'd take it back and ask them if they could at least help with the problem since you did spend at least $700 at their shop.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I'd take it back and ask them if they could at least help with the problem since you did spend at least $700 at their shop.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I'd take it back and ask them if they could at least help with the problem since you did spend at least $700 at their shop.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

You might also want to check your axle to axle length.My Allegiance was in the timing marks on the cams,but the axle to axle was off.The Binary cams are working,keeping the cams in time,but your axle to axle could change even though the cam marks are in time.You can also try a lighter point in the arrows,or heavier point at the same length arrow,just to see if the arrow spine is soft,or stiff.I would also recomend taking the bow back if you cannot get it to tune.Any shop that wants your business will work to get the bow shooting,if not,then find another shop!!!

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

for $hits and giggles just try a lighter spine.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Call me a pessimist but considering what you have gone through I wonder if the issue might be more serious than just the setup. I don't want to give the impression that I am jumping the gun but is it possible that there might be a problem possibly with the construction of the bow itself? Possibly a limb not seated properly in the limb pocket oran axle not properly set in the cam?

Call Bowtech's customer service directly. Relate your problem and what you have done to correct it. See what they have to say.

Just my thoughts though it could very well be something that one of the others suggested.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Ken, I'm not sure what you mean by my axle to axle changing. I don't see how that's possible other than from a little string stretch. Are you talking about the tiller? Also I have tried a lighter spined arrow (a Gold tip 4575) with the same results. I looked at my cams this evening while my brother in law held it back at full draw. The top cam seems to be leaning to the left at full draw. When let down it seems to be perfectly inline. The bottom cam seems in line no matter what. Could cam lean cause this fishtailing?

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

You MUST have at least 1 inch between the inside of your riser and the top center or your arrow while on your rest. Some say even more center shot is necessary. My Allegiance is shooting EXTREMELY good at 1 1/16 inches.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

medic, the problem I found with my Defender was the center shot. I don't see anywhere in this thread that you had the center shot setup correctly. A lot of the rests do not have enough left adjustement for the Binary Cam system. Double check that before you throw your bow. ;) If your rest won't move left enough, which I'm guessing is the problem, buy a different rest. I'm using the QAD Ultra Rest and it is working great. QAD includes a spacer just because of the Bowtechs. It will move the rest out another 3/16". Keep us posted on what you find.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

The axle to axle can change when BOTH the string and cables stretch.My brother has a Defender,and is shooting it with a Trophy Ridge Drop Zone rest.He hasn't had any problems with tearing tail left,or tail right,He had trouble with point high tears,he solved this problem with cutting his arrow length down,this making his arrow stiffer.He is shooting a bullet hole with his Defender now.Make sure you have center shot before you try anything else.After setting center shot to center,then try different spined arrows.You might have to buy different arrows for this bow compaired to your old bow.Just because the arrow chart says this or that arrow,don't mean there is something wrong with your bow because it won't tune that particular arrow.With the Binary cams,they WILL stay in time,even if your string and cables stretch,thats what they are suppose to do.Hope this helps,if you cannot get the bow to tune,then take the bow to a good proshop,they should be able to find an arrow that will tune and shoot. ;)

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Are you sure you are not torquing the grip? Have someone else shoot it through paper to confirm this.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I have readjusted the center shot repeatedly and played with all adjustment from all the way left to all the way right and anywhere inbetween. I received an email from Bowtech's customer service today and they advised that I reset my centershot as well. Sooooo I went out this evening and did exactly that. I reset it to 15/16" from the riser (their specification) and played with it both left and right of that setting. No change. I am inclined to agree with PABowhntr that something is wrong with the bow itself. Also as a note I took the bow to a different dealer (not the one I purchased it from) and had him try to tune it. he was unable to do so and had no idea why. Everyone keeps telling me it's a setup problem but I can't see how that can be after I've tried EVERY mark on my left/right adjustment. I also purchased a lighter spined arrow and it did the same thing. Help!

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Also for those of you who have defenders please look at a couple things for me. My cable guard kept coming loose despite my efforts to tighten the set screw. I took it to my Bowtech dealer and they used epoxy to set the rod. Now it aims out to the R side of the bow. It is not parallel to the riser. Are your cable rods parallel to the riser? My buss cable pull at quite an angle as my cable guard slides. I think this is canting my cam, but everyone keeps telling me it's my setup.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I've been in the same bind and the only repair was a rest that provided more arrow guidence than a drop away could provide. With your "dual cam" bow and level nock travel you shouldn't need any more than a drop zone can provide.
Since two Bowtech dealers couldn't help you out of this messI feel it's time for Bowtech to step up to the plate and help you out.

This thread is gonna lay on my brain because the defender was on my list of bows to look at next year ifI decide to bow shop again.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

medic, what state are you in? I think you need to find another Bowtech dealer or call Bowtech direct again. That whole cable rod thing has me doubting their sanity. If they used epoxy and the rod is not lined up correctly, you are screwed. Did you have the nock right tear problem before they glued the rod? If yes, then there is something else going on. If not, then maybe it is putting pressure on the cables and cams causing it to be out of tune. Regardless, I would call Bowtech and tell them what has happened. Hopefully they will send you another bow and have a talk to that pro shop owner. That is ridiculous to start band-aiding a brand new $600 bow.

To answer your question, my cable rod comes out parrallel to the riser. It did come loose after a few practice sessions but I just had to tighten the set screw.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

This is just a suggestion because I'm not sure if Bowtech offers different lb limbs like other companies do. If they do, it might be possible you have two different lb limbs? This would most certainly cause your problems as stated.

Can't hurt to check.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Try sending BowTechShooter(Pat) an e-mail.Maybe he could get BowTech to help you.What State are you in?

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Can you post a picture of your cam's rotation and cable slide?

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Well, here I go again. For those asking I'm in Michigan. I contacted Bowtech's tech support line yesterday. They told me not to worry and that they would take care of me no matter what they needed to do. (whew). They said to take it to a different bow shop and have them look at it. So last evening I took it to a different dealer and he immediately saw several small things that could be my problem. He reset my nock and center shot. Made my dropzone come to full rize just a touch earlier. Changed my string loop and then had me shoot the bow. The arrows no longer visibly fishtailed but we still had my inevitable right tear in the paper tune test. After experimenting with a few grip styles I couldn't get the tear to go away. We added a wrist sling and still the tear remained. The shop owner tried shooting my bow and still had a right tear. Then he had his other employee shoot the bow (apparantly a long time PSE shooter) Bullet hole on his 1st try!!! He shot 5 more arrows all w/perfect shots. He worked w/me on my grip but still I got the right tear. He said it would just take practice for me to shoot it properly. So now I'm back to square 1. Is this a common experience for you guys? What if I'm not ever able to shoot it properly? I've never had a problem w/other bows so why this one? Just a few questions on my mind. Thanks for the input. Also I'm trying to load a pic of my cable rod so you can see it. I checked another defender in the shop and it's rod also angled out to the right.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

medic, I'm glad you found a dealer that took more time to work with you on your bow. You should stick with him.

When you said the cable rod was angled to the right, I invisioned something more drastic than that. Mine is the same way as your picture indicates. I do have one question though. Did you take the cable slide off to take the picture? I don't see it on there. I hope you are shootig with it on as that would probably be your problem.

What release are you using? Did the dealer and the employee use your release? Did you look at the way they were gripping the bow and their follow through? The way you are gripping the bow and your form could be causing the tear right but I would think it would be a very apparent problem. I would just be grabbing at straws without actually seeing you or a picture of you at full draw.

As far as your other bows go. The Bowtechs and a lot of newer bows have much smaller grips. Maybe you just need to find the right spot and get used to it. Could be your form was always bad like mine was. My pro shop owner gave me some lessons and although it has taken a couple of months to get used to it, my shooting has improved.

PS - Nice toenail! MUHAHAHA!

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Thanks for posting the pic,, now,,, move your arrow rest in so the launcher is as close to the riser as you can get it but still be able to make adjustments. Looks like an overdraw from the past, the way it's set now!!

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

If you are trying a high wrist grip , the new bowtechs dont like it , they want a mid grip .

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

I shoot with a high wrist,, actually a straight wrist and get Excellent arrow flight and accuracy. I can also shoot healing the grip and get the same arrow flight and accuracy,, but the string bites my forearm a little..

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Also make sure you are *not* canting the bow in any way, shape, or form or applying any torque at anchor.. VERY easy to do ona short bow like that. This will cause goofy tears.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

My thoughts were somewhat along the line of what Jeff posted. Short bows are definitely more finicky of shooting form than longer ones. I would be curious to see if you had the same problems with an Allegiance or Old Glory.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Well, I've been working on my grip and things are slowly improving. Now I have about a 3/4" right tear @6 ft. This is much better from my previous 4"right tear. Yes the other bowtech dealer I went to was much more helpful and I'll stick with him. Yes I did take the cable slide off for that picture so the rod would be easier to see.
When talking about grip height (high, mid, low) is that just your hand position on the grip? If so I would think I have a "high" grip because my hand is pressed into the bend of my grip. Is any one grip style better for short A to A bows or is it just personal preference. Also is there a book or internet site that shows hand positions and how they should be? My arrows group very well now (1" @20yds) but my broadheads are still off (Left 2"). Is this still just a sign of me torquing the bow a little? Thanks for the replies.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

My experience with my OG is that it is VERY sensitive to grip. A couple of the staff shooters up here say the same thing. I really have to work to keep my grip consistant, butwhen it is, bingo. Now, I had some issue getting my TT to shoot paper really well. I went with a Bodoodle and it really dialed in. Arrow flight was visibly better, as well as on paper. This work was all done at my dealer's shop. He and I tried all types of different combinations. We both changed rests, arrows, releases, grip. The one cool thing was that with the Bodoodle rest, any combination of arrows, GT22's with a 50 grain tip, 7595 with a 125 gr. tip, and even some 2413's flew great out of this bow. I really was sold on that Bodoodle, the Pro-lite model. You might think about trying one out. It really made my tuning much easier, and the bow MUCH more forgiving.
JMAC

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

My last bow was A Reflex Grizzly and I also had a nasty tear I could not tune out. I eventually took off the molded plastic 2 pc grip that it came with and "BINGO" instant bullets. Grip is that important. I hate to say it but maybe that bow is just not the right one for you. I would not give up yet but you have to live with it not me. One size does not always fit all.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

Try paper tuning at 3 feet and see what happens. A 10feet the arrow is in some serious ossicallation. No need to paper tune futher than 3 or 4 feet in my opinion. Oh and how are your groups at 20 yards. Alot of guys get stuck on paper tuning even though they are shooting 3 inch groups. Good luck.

RE: HELP tuning nightmare w/bowtech defender
 

My groups @20yds are better now than they have ever been. If I shoot a good group it's now about a 1"grouping @20yds. Also I've been working more on my grip and finally yesterday bullet holed one. After getting my grip down I went and tried my broadheads to compare w/my fieldpoints and the flight was almost right on. They his about 1" left of my field points @30 yards. To me this seems very good and my frustrations are all but over. How about others out there, what kind of groupings are typical and how do your FIXED blade broadheads compare?