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experts! please explain this?

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experts! please explain this?

Old 07-14-2005, 06:48 AM
  #11  
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

No expert by a long shot, but I try to pay attention to my problems/solutions, and those of others.

If the arrows are fishtailing, it would indicate the centershot is off, or possibly bow torque. There have been several threads on here and on ArcheryTalk about the routing of the cables on the Equalizer cam bows. If you do a search, you should be able to see the correct way to route the cables, as it is supposed to reduce torque. Also many threads about these bows tuning best with centershot that is farther away from the sight window than you might expect. I guess it is possible that the GTs could be overspined, but IME, overspined arrows with a compound bow and release are not usually a big problem. You are more likely to have problems with borderline weak spine. I have had several bows that tend to shoot an arrow tail right. With carbon arrows (not sure why only carbon) the "obvious" moving the rest to the right often makes the problem worse, and it is solved by moving the rest "the wrong way" to the left. Why does this happen? I don't know really, but maybe a real expert could figure it out. Personally, I would just shoot the Allegiance with the 2315s and use the GTs for the Extreme, but if you want to use the GTs for the Ally, it will take some more work.
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Old 07-14-2005, 07:22 AM
  #12  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

I know you said you checked for clearance, but I'll mention this anyway... I have an Extreme VFT, and although I have no clearance issues with my DZ rest, if I don't turn the nocks, I have fletching contact with the cables. Do you notice that the nocks of all of your "tuned" arrows all end up in the same position relative to the vanes?
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:15 AM
  #13  
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

OK,,,put it this way, I set the center shot back to center, then shot 3 arrows (XT7595's), turn the nocks to find the best flight even with broads on just the 3, fletches are in different position by the way, fletched the other 9, took all 9 and shot them with broads on the Extreme solo and did not turn any of the 9 that I hadfletched and all shot just great.

Sorry I'm making it difficult for you guys, but I think I'll stick with the 2315's for now and by the way I think Straightarrow kinda hit it, I think it might be low tolerance arrows but I appreciate all the inputs, anyways the Ally didn't seem too slow with the 27"-2315's.

thanks again!!
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:25 AM
  #14  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

I'm no expert, but from what I have seen over the years I would have to say that the laser tuner is a gimmick. Just because you have center shot at rest doesn't mean you'll have center shot with 70 pounds worth of torque put on your riser.
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Old 07-14-2005, 10:39 AM
  #15  
 
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Location: Blissfield MI USA
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

Ok for starters those bow are completely different animals. The Ally puts out more power than the older one does. TAP actually shows both arrows being too weak for the allegiance. It does not even list a Gold Tip that will work at that arrow length and your draw length and weight. I ran it with a 75/95 though and it came up way weak, as well as the 2315. Both the gold tip and the aluminum you are using are actually pretty darn close in spine.

Both those arrows spine very good for your older bowtech though and either one would be a good choice, the gold tip being a tad bit stiffer. It's not a surprise they shoot well out of that bow.

I am surprised the aluminums shoot that well out of the allegiance though being that they are actually slightly weaker than the carbons are. It might have to do with the bigger diameter and slight change in nocking point, unless you changed it when you switched from one arrow to the other (which technically you should have).

Incase you are interested these are the arrows I show working for that set up. 30 inch draw, 70 lb, 27 inch arrow (are they measured correctly?) and 100 grn tip.

Beman 300's
Carbon Express 350's
ACC 3-71's
Any easton carbon 300
And in an aluminum either a 2317 or a 2514. The 2317's would be heavier and stiffer, where the 2514's are a bit weaker, but dead on in the green and 50 grains lighter. It also lists a 2512 but it's a bit weak and they are pretty thin arrows. They are even lighter though.

I agree with the others, the laser center shot tool is a cool toy, but it really just tells you what your true mechanical center shot is. That does not mean that is the correct center shot for your set up. There are many things that determin that. Like the spine of the arrow, the type of release you use, if you use a loop or not, the amount of torque on your cable gaurd rod, your grip pressure, how you anchor to your face and that sort of stuff. It's not really going to be the same for every person. Same with your nocking point.

Are both bows set up exactly the same? Like do both use a string loop or directly off the string. If they are different that would cause a difference in tuning right there. The arrow will react differently when it comes off the string. A loop uses a much more centered and direct push on the arrow, where shooting off the string depending on the release you use may impart a slight amount of side to side movement on the string.

My guess would be the biggest issue is spine. They are both pretty darn weak. I think that maybe your particular set up on that bow matches the aluminums a bit better and that is why they shoot better. When arrows are that weak they are very sensitive to minor changes in your tune. That is why normally a stiffer arrow is more forgiving. It could be that because of the size difference in the arrows your center shot and nocking point just works out better for the aluminums. I bet if you dinked with it enough you may have gotten the carbons pretty close. Maybe

The other possibility and the most likely is that because the arrows are so weak you are seeing the difference in quality and tolerances between the two much better. Like I said, the weaker the arrow the less forgiving and more sensitive they are. This not only applies to set up, but straightness and dymanic spine as well. It could very well be that the aluminums are much closer from arrow to arrow and group better as a result. Where the carbons are not as close from arrow to arrow and they didn't group as well and responded well to tuning the nocks. When you were turning the nocks you were actually finding the high sides for spine on each arrow and getting them closer together, so the flight improved.

I bet if you got arrows closer to the correct spine they would tune easier, fly better and actually have more down range energy.

If those arrows work, they work. However don't be surprised if they start shooting different later on down the road because they are bending or because your set up changes every so slightly. They also will not be very forgiving of your form. Considering you are shooting 27 inch arrows out of 30 inch bow you are already shooting a slight overdraw which is less forgiving as well. I assume you are using a drop a way of some sort.

Good luck,
Paul
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:17 AM
  #16  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

Nock height can cause left/right tearswith the binary cams.

Are you set up dead level with the carbons??

You may be to nock high
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Old 07-14-2005, 11:50 AM
  #17  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

Im not an expert

The laser tool is a starting point , your grip will change the centershot , along with other variables

Cabon arrows are no where near as consistant as alluninum .
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:05 PM
  #18  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ohio
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Default RE: experts! please explain this?

Get the cxmaxima 350's, many on AT with the same allegiance problems have been having great success with them. That is what i switched to!
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