Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

I am seriously thinking of getting a GWP this spring. I have looked and hunted with numerous breeds, and really like what the GWP has to offer.

My question is, I have heard that GWPs can be tough to train, tougher than a GSP.

I helped my brother train his GSP, and she is a great dog, very well trained, and I think I could handle that level of training.

Any opinions?

FYI - I am in MI, and will be hunting mainly upland birds, but occasionally duck. I am not looking for a field trial or show dog, but rather a hard hunter and companion.

Thanks,

Erik

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

I bought a german wirehaired pointer as my first pointing dog over the summer, and am finding her to be exceptionally stubborn, but also very smart and loves traing. I feel it just requires more patients than I ever would have expected. But she is a great dog and does pickup on things quickly, but test me alot.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Trained one about 10 years ago-was as hard headed as a Chessie but caught on fast-seemed she wanted a reason to do anything I asked her to do but once she figured out why I wanted it done she never forgot-did it for a buddy of mine and he hunted her every year until this last year-she just couldn't go anymore. She will test you-but if you are consistent and patient you will be rewarded

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Rustyaxecamp

Have you ever looked into pointing labs?
Iam locted in michigan too, and do alot of upland hunting
don't do much waterfowl but my dogs are trained for it.
I have 3 Blk PL and one Chlt that I handle.
They learn fast and are a pleasure to work with and hunt behind.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

For a 'first time trainer', I'd suggest the Pointing Lab as well. Labs are very forgiving for trainer errors. I LOVE GWPs, but for a 'virgin trainer', I think they could be a bit tough.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

I have hunted with one pointing lab. I was not overly impressed, the Dratharrs (GWPs) in the group out hunted it. I thought for the money my friend spent, the doug would be better. However the training may not have been the best...... This pointing lab was more of a less flushing lab.

I am open to here about them, Dale (I checked your website, very nice), tell me why I should get a pointing lab......

Erik

Rusty Axe Camp

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

there are lots of reasons to get one but I think the most important thing is that you plan on both upland and waterfowl hunting and if you like to see a dog do good in both areas and a dog(not all of them of course) who wants to please you then a lab is the good bet, I have had my naysayers but have gotten their approvel after they went hunting with me!

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Thanks!! That gave me some info I hadn't thought about. I will give it some thought. How often do you have litters?

Anyone else have input?????

Erik

Rusty Axe Camp

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

First off you will be satisfied with whichever dog you chose since they can both do the things you want them to do. I have worked with GWP's but never my own always for somebody else and I liked them a lot. In having researched PL's though I think I have found my next hunting buddy. I will be getting a pup to start in about 60 days. Seems to be the training that is the most important part of the whole thing. If you hunt with a bunch of other guys you may want to stick with a flusher or true pointer. If you spend as much time hunting alone as you do with others then either dog will work for you. I just figured I would give a PL a shot since I like most of what Doc C and RACh have had to say and what the Knutson' wrote in their book

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

I've got a breeding comming up in may, pups should be ready late Aug.
Pedigrees and all important info are posted on my website.
If you want to see my dogs in action give me a call.
We'll arrange a time you can come down.
I can also show their water retrieving skills, I don't have a pond yet but I go up to cabelas and use theirs often. If its not frozen. I am less than 10 miles from cabelas. so it wouldn't take that long.
let me know if your interested.

The book that Duckstampede mentioned is definatly a must have.
The Pointing Labrador by Paul and Julie Knutson
Another good one for retriever training is Game dog by richard wolters
Its start with basic comands and works its way through waterfowl and upland training.
I think I got both mine at cabelas.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

The german dogs are no tougher to train than most labs, that is just nonsense. Pointing dogs by nature should be independent and not constantly looking to their handler, its what makes a good pointer a good pointer. He leads YOU, not you lead HIM. The best pointers head hell bent for leather to the cover that holds birds.

Also, for the German Pointers, they are not diggers, they are not barkers, they are not chewers, and they mature in about 18 months and quit acting like puppies and start acting like dogs. If you get a lab expect a lot longer for mental maturation and most of them are chewers some REALLY REALLY bad chewers (I know guys whose labs have cribbed dog houses to nothing and ripped siding off of houses), a lot of them are diggers, but I don't think many of them are really barkers.


I like both breeds and own a gsp and a lab, so I am not particularly biased, but I think its not right to imply that a PL is the same dog as a GWP just easier to train because its not true.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

do not mean to imply anything infact I edited my earlier post as not to stir the pot with anyone I am extremly proud of my dogs and have seen a lot of negative threads on pointing labs and it makes me a little defensive, everyone has their favorite dog and you will never change their minds unless you can prove that your breed performs in the field. with pointing labs being relativly new, atleast the breeding of them, people tend to critisize, all though I think the tide is starting to turn. the facts are and this applies to all breeds with good training they do perform well and are fun to watch.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Rach,

I don't think you are stirring the pot. I guess my point is this. Labs and pointers are distinctly different breeds. If a lab can point, fine, but in all other aspects it is still a labrador. Pointers have been bred for hundreds of years for all aspects of their required tasks, as have retrievers. There IS a huge mental, personality, whatever difference between the breeds, and to pretend it does not exist is just not fair. If a guy really wants a pointing dog because he likes pointing dogs, steering him to a PL is just not being accurate in my opinion, because he is going to get a labrador that points, not a pointer in other aspects. There IS a difference, it does not make one breed better, just different. I think that is where the negativity about the PL come from. Guys will not acknowledge that there is more to being a pointer than just pointing. I mean, Angelina Jolie is a lot different from Jessica Simpson, but I sure would not turn down a date with either of them.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

That was my exact point as well-he is going to be happy with either one he gets-both great dogs. I have had labs that settled down at 9 months and became adults at that point-I have also had ones that I am not sure ever matured. GWP's however are different in temperment than GSP's-I have hunted both and trained GWP. He really asked two questions-one was about dogs and the other was about training if he was not as experienced. Trained poorly both dogs are worthless. Loved your analogy about the dates-just hope my wife never finds out.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

hey i agree, no offense. pointers are pointers and retrievers are retreivers. pick your dog for what you like and what your going to hunt. training can be overcome. i'm a shorthair man and hunt a broad variety of birds over my dogs, from quail.pheasant.woodcock.grouse, huns and even dove hunt over my dogs. like i say pick a dog you like if you don't you won't be satisfied. dogs are an major investment of time and money.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Alaskamagnum

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND!
there is a difference I would never deny that!
I asked rustyaxe if he had ever looked into them
When he posted he was interested I simply cave him some information on the breed. I never once told him not to get a pointer, they are great dogs! He said he would be doing some waterfowl hunting so I simply gave him another option.
In the end its his choice to find the right dog for HIM whatever the breed.


Definatly see your point on angelina and jessica!
They are both beautiful, however I'll stick to men!
You' re speaking to the MRS of the swiderski team!
We both make post! sorry to confuse you;)

Its always great to see someone stick up for what they believe in!
Its been Great posting with you!
Rachel

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

hey rach not trying to upset anyone, just saying he needs to pick the dogs he wants.
if he doesn't he won't be satisfied. not saying he needs to pick a pointer or a retriever.
just what he wants. with time and training they will both do the job.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Thanks for the discussion guys/gals;)!! Sorry if my questions caused anyone to get there hackles up..... I have seen this debate first hand, both indoors and out in the field. Try taking a very expensive, poorly trained pointing lab to a registered Drahtharr breeders kennel/farm and hunting side by side with Drats that are champions, I just sat back and watched the fireworks...... Two of my best friends, one has Drats, one has a PL.

Again, it comes back to training. To bring the discussion back full circle, I have never had a pointing or actual upland/game dog. My experience has been limited to Beagles, and assisting people in training first hand.

I have bought and read numerous books on training gun dogs, and have been reading Gun Dog magazine for the past year. I have talked to people/breeders and have hunted over several breeds, coming to the conclusion of a GSP or GWP. The pointing lab looks very interesting, however, I think for the type of hunting I will be doing (probably 98% grouse, woodcock, 1% pheasant, and 1% waterfowl) a GWP will be my choice.

Now to pose another question, being this is my first pointing dog, am I going to be better off having the dog "started" at a professional kennel? In reading the "Woods and Waters" a local MI magazine, I see numerous breeders/kennels that offer dog starting for a reasonable fee.

Comments or Advice???


Erik

Rusty Axe Camp

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

Rustyaxecamp--
Well, the question of training is a good one indeed. If time permits and you are up to it there is probably nothing more frustrating or satisfying than training your own dog.
If you are going to use a trainer then find one who specializes in the breed you choose. Much better to get the pastry chef to make your turnovers and the choclatier to make your choclates.

Never hunted over PL or GWP so good luck with the choice. Need any info on CBR or GSP let me know. BTW my CBR loves the upland fields and on occasion even points, but her absolute favorite is duckhunting but these days there don't seem to be any ducks around.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

their are some ducks left in michigan, I tell you what jessica simpson hands down, angelina is one of them fur haten, far left , wouldn't even want to be in the same room as people, billy bob, swapping blood whats up with that. back to the thread
personally it would be better in my IMHO to start your dog yourself, and then get professional training for the advanced or finished work, most trainers charge a small fee for say 75 dollers to spend a couple hours with you and give you things to work on for a couple of weeks, this helps insure a better bond between you and the dog and helps train you, dogs tend to push the limits when not kept in check or when they learn that they can get away with something and you can not stop them or if they are not run through class periodically. Are you planning to use the e-coller if so you will want to learn how and when to use it, this is extremly important many a good dog has been ruined by bad timing, too much heat, etc me personally I think the e-collar is a great tool for training used properly the dog must be conditioned to all commands and you will need to learn how to do this weather or not you have the dog trained or do it yourself, the hardest part of Do it yourself training is getting a dog birdy cause most people do not have birds, but they are not hard to come by with a little bit of homework, so do not let this intimidate you, PM me if you want to know more

Dale

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

After all of this-make sure you let us know what you picked and how it is going with the new dog-I wished I had enough time to adequately train my dogs these days but I just don't-so I use a starter for them-and have been happy so far.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

if you decide to go with a trainer, check around find out as much as you can about them. spend time with him in the field. i know this first hand. when i was in college didn't have much time to train a dog, went with word of mouth on a trainer,didn't check into them. the dog spent 2 months with the trainer, he wasn;t totally whoa broke, and was about ruined when i got him home. the guy would whip him with a heeling stick when he didn't listen, seen this first hand and was amazed. if i raised my voice at the dog he would lay down and not move until i went and picked him up, this took a long time to fix, and ruined my first year with him. he eventually came out of it and is my best dog to date, killed over 6000 birds over him. if you do decide to train your own dog, my advice to you is to make sure you spend time with him everyday, even if its only 10 15 minutes. in my opinion the most important thing in pointing dogs is the whoa command, and of course birds. this will save you alot of headaches. but once you train your own dog the reward and satisfaction from it is great.

RE: Wirehaired Pointers for my first bird dog?
 

That is a bummer about your dog-that is not a trainer but a beater and should be dealt with accordingly. The advice is right on target about checking the trainer out.