New dog, new method
 

Some of you may have read and responded to my earlier post about my lab not retrieving to hand but running past me. The post suggested that I try forced fetching. I was in total agreement. I've done it before and to those of us who love our dogs know its a tough nut to crack.
About 5-6 days ago I started to train her to force fetch using the fingernail to ear stimulation to get her to open her mouth. She got the idea fairly quick but would not stretch out for the dummy to grab it from my hand. I was keeping my cool but getting frustrated. But today I thought, this dog responds well to a treat. I taught her to sit, stay, heel and come with treats and no longer need them so I thought just maybe it would work for this too. I took her out to the garage and put her on the restraint, did the initial ear pinch and hold, give which she did. Then I praised her and gave her a bacon treat (her favorite). Next, by just holding her leash I commanded fetch and she took the dummy out of my hand, held it until I gave the give command. Gave her another treat. At the end of the 5 min session, she was stretching for the dummy upon command and holding until I told her to give. tomorrow i will try to extend to picking up off the floor.
It just goes to show you that there is no one method for training a dog. We have to think and modify methods to get a satisfactory response.

Great, I hope it works out and translates to her retrieving to hand for you.

That is great bronko.......I also use a lot of treats and lots and lots of praise. In my training sessions I have a goal in mind for the 20 minutes segments I teach. Some of my goals are reached and some are so darn frustrating I want to just cry but I look for some little high point - at some sequence, while it may not meet that goal - I finish with lots of praise and a treat or two and quit for an hour or so. I look for a high point to stop. Then try it again.
The last thing you want to do is get upset with the dog as they read your body language long before your emotions kick in.

Like you said there are written methods - and for me - some methods I tried, some I liked and some I forgot about right after I was told. But it was an adaption of methods that got me to where my two mutts are now....

I don't agree with this method. IMHO Treats have no place in this portion of the dogs development. I'd suggest keeping with the FF, and continue until you have the results you want. When you hit stumbling blocks take a step back and restart. Most problems you'll find are a result of timing on your part. If she actually knows what you want and refuses to do it. Don't bribe her, just pinch harder.

Good luck!

Sorry Mickey but I disagree with you. Why make the dog suffer when you can get the same results with other methods. As I mentioned before I used the same method for sit stay come and heel and now that it is learned I no longer have to give her any treat. Pinching harder without any improved results may likely just make the dog cower every time you reach to touch her and only proves your tougher but not necessarily smarter than the dog. I have been raising labs training them for over 35 years and I have determined that this dog responds better to praise and not punishment. Not all dogs are alike so not all training methods work on all dogs.

Well, I don't like making an animal suffer as you put it. But I believe Force training is the surest way to get the results you want time and again.

Anyway, good luck and have a great season!

I agree with Bronko as I have stated here before. I will not hurt my dog, if it takes longer to get her to retrieve to hand than force retrieving, so be it. It took 3 years before my last setter was consistant in retreiving to hand, during that time, he never lost a bird. After he started to retreive to hand, he did it every time. I suspect my new pup will take a while as well but it will happen and she will not asociate retreiving with pain or discomfort. I am not too lazy to walk up and pick up a bird that my dog is holding down. I suspect you wouldn't care too much for someone pinching your ear or toes every time you miss a bird!

I know you understand dogs, and I think we are just looking at the thing differently. I like to get the FF over with by 18months, and move on to blood tracking and other skills. If you wait three years to achieve reliable retrieves, your dogs useful life is 1/3 over with. ( 1-3 young, 3-6 good, 6+ old) That's time you cannot get back. It's just something to keep in mind when you plan your training program.

ATB

Mickey, we simply have a difference of opinion on how to get to the same place. In most of my life I do not have much patience, very little in fact. However, While I expect my dogs to obey, which they do, I am soft on them. It took me years and years before I even considered an e-collar. I tried the ones I have on the inside of my wrist on each setting before I ever put one on my dog and made sure the setting only got their mind off whatever they wanted to do that was not what the command was and not actually cause pain. There are few people who would call me soft, perhaps my dogs would and I can live with that. I do agree with you that treats can be way over done, I want my dog to obey because he wants to please me, not for a bit of food. This guy retreived because he wanted to, it took a while and he never lost a bird, if they were still alive he would put his big foot on them and hold them down.







After he started to retrieve he once wentinto a huge patch of multiflora rose after a pheasant I killed it was thick as the devil and he could not get back out with the bird in his mouth. He would not come out without the bird and I could not get in, he finally laid down with his head on the bird. I had a small pocket knife in my pocket, a Gerber LST. I cut my way into him, ruined my thin bob allen shooting gloves and my legs in the process. Once I got to him, he picked up the bird and walked out and sat down on the path waiting for me and gave me the bird. That big setter had heart, Once he chased a wounded bird into a multiflora hedge row and crawled on his belley after that bird. That was about 5 years ago and the guys who saw it still talk about it. What would he have done if I had forced him? I don't know but I could not have been happier with him the way he was. Sadly I lost him last June at 7yo. I still tear up when I think about him.

Nice looking setter. It's sad he left so soon.

ATB

Yes it is, thank you.

My family "rescued" a pup from the pet store a few months ago. He's a hunting breed, but you know pet store dogs... I like hunting over a dog, just never had one of my own. The only dogs I've ever trained were sled dogs, obviously different. So, I read up quick in the off-chance the the pet shop dog might have a hunting gene hidden somewhere. He surprised me, and the challenge has been on ever since.

Of what I've read - and don't get me wrong, having ideas and differences in opinions HAS been helpful - I'm frankly amazed at how many of those things just didn't work, other than simply to lead me to the next thing. And, I've come to appreciate more and value that he has some natural abilities which I underestimated after all of that reading.

He was too young for the field last season, so he's got his big test ahead and he looks good in the pastures around the house now. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm training a hunting buddy, not a showdog for Westminster or the textbook gun dog.

What breed? Pointing or flushing?

Post up some pictures of your new hunting buddy. We like pup pictures. Lol

English Springer. I'll try to post a photo one of these days.

Thanks, do that. Just a little advice from someone who is no expet trainer, but has trained several flushing dogs for myself,, the most important thing to teach a flushing dog is to "hup", that is to sit till you tell her to continue to hunt when she gets too far ahead of you, otherwise she will flush birds out of range. Good luck.

Absolutely. We've been working on this one, but only more practice and time will tell. I've been changing directions intentionally a lot when we're out "hunting", so he's kind of off balance and not always knowing where he's going to find me unless he stays relatively close by, especially in the tall grass. I've also been able to call him off the occasional jackrabbits and non-game birds almost instantly, which is encouraging but always a concern. I'd rather break bad habits before they become habits in the first place. He's a lot of fun to work with.

Yo may be able to get pigeons and work with him on live birds. I was going to say chuckar but you probably have wild ones there. I used to get them here in PA at a game farm (about 50 or so) and just let the local WCO know that I was going to be putting some out and shooting them over my dog. I never had any problems going that route.
Just one quick tip if you do this. When you park your vehicle, go around the OTHER side of the field with the birds and plant them on your way back using a piece of surveyors flagging to mark them. I had to start doing that because my dog got too smart and realize that if she followed my scent trail it would lead her to a bird!

Bronko, every smart dog does that.

It's called FORCE Fetch for a reason.
Teach = HOLD
Enforce = Ear Pinch Fetch
Reinforce = ecollar Fetch

What are you going to do to train Force to Pile ?
How about "T" and "double T" ?

I can think of a dozen reasons why I would not do "Treat Fetch".


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Very nice dogs.

They learn that quick!