What do you think is the all around best sporting dog?
07-15-2010, 12:12 PM
#92
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central PA
Posts: 829
so lets get this straight, when we post pics or video when you can't see the bird the response is "well how do we know he was pointing a bird or there was not some one giving a visual cue f camara" if the birds are in view, it is "my dog would have been locked up way before then"
I wasn't bashing this guy's dog, actually I gave him credit for showing a lab holding point and as I have said before I can post pics of my dog holding point in the middle of a parking lot without a blade of grass anywhere in sight because I cued him to whoa by hand or voice. I do not retract anything that I have posted because in every post regarding "pointing" labs I posted what I experienced personally. And YES MY DOG WOULD HAVE BEEN LOCKED UP as he is on the birds in the pen in my backyard before going inside the pen. He knows the difference as you explain below but whether a pen bird or a wild one he locks up and will not move even if I give him his release command as long as there is a bird in front of him. During testing sometimes a situation presents itself where the bird he is pointing cannot be flushed and at that point I will heel him off the bird by placing my self in between him and it but otherwise he will not move if he knows there is still a bird in front of his nose.
To the guy with the lab pointing in the pen... You are very lucky to have a lab that points the way he does. He looks good, I like his intensity, I have hunted with many "pointing labs" and none had that discipline.
I'll say it again, the dogs know the difference between pen and wild birds and will point wild birds expotentially farther away then pen raised......
I wasn't bashing this guy's dog, actually I gave him credit for showing a lab holding point and as I have said before I can post pics of my dog holding point in the middle of a parking lot without a blade of grass anywhere in sight because I cued him to whoa by hand or voice. I do not retract anything that I have posted because in every post regarding "pointing" labs I posted what I experienced personally. And YES MY DOG WOULD HAVE BEEN LOCKED UP as he is on the birds in the pen in my backyard before going inside the pen. He knows the difference as you explain below but whether a pen bird or a wild one he locks up and will not move even if I give him his release command as long as there is a bird in front of him. During testing sometimes a situation presents itself where the bird he is pointing cannot be flushed and at that point I will heel him off the bird by placing my self in between him and it but otherwise he will not move if he knows there is still a bird in front of his nose.
To the guy with the lab pointing in the pen... You are very lucky to have a lab that points the way he does. He looks good, I like his intensity, I have hunted with many "pointing labs" and none had that discipline.
I'll say it again, the dogs know the difference between pen and wild birds and will point wild birds expotentially farther away then pen raised......
Last edited by 4evrhtn; 07-15-2010 at 06:52 PM.
07-16-2010, 08:25 AM
#93
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
toby will hold point for as long as i want but i never trained him to do it and he does it when he wants.
like other day he held point for 13 minutes on rabbit.holds points on snakes and looks at me very slowly with his head,then turns back ,holds and looks at me and holds.
i seen him hold a point on groundhog for 20 minutes, never moving.he will hold his back leg up in air for 2 minutes or so while stalking,then front up in air for 2 minutes or so or longer.
in woods,HE WILL NOT POINT ANYTHING.....he flushes.
at home and along river,HE POINTS ALL DAY LONG..........i know if i knew how to train toby on grouse in woods,HE WOULD BEING DOING IT.
he needs no WHOA thing to hold point also,he does it and holds it with tail curled round.i see many labs with tail out straight pointing, NOT TOBY HE CURLS HIS CROOKED TAIL ALMOST IN CIRCLE TOWARDS HIS BACK....
like other day he held point for 13 minutes on rabbit.holds points on snakes and looks at me very slowly with his head,then turns back ,holds and looks at me and holds.
i seen him hold a point on groundhog for 20 minutes, never moving.he will hold his back leg up in air for 2 minutes or so while stalking,then front up in air for 2 minutes or so or longer.
in woods,HE WILL NOT POINT ANYTHING.....he flushes.
at home and along river,HE POINTS ALL DAY LONG..........i know if i knew how to train toby on grouse in woods,HE WOULD BEING DOING IT.
he needs no WHOA thing to hold point also,he does it and holds it with tail curled round.i see many labs with tail out straight pointing, NOT TOBY HE CURLS HIS CROOKED TAIL ALMOST IN CIRCLE TOWARDS HIS BACK....
07-16-2010, 05:08 PM
#94
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central PA
Posts: 829
Sproul, you should get a couple birds and put them in a pen in the yard. Then make wire cages that hold the birds but allow their scent to permeate the air as would be natural. Then take thos caged birds with you for your walks in the woods and hide them without Toby seeing them. Bring him in the direction of the birds from downwind and see what he does as soon as he starts getting birdy whoa him. If you want your dog to point he must be taught that flushing is not accepted. There is no gray area here, your dog is either a pointer or a flusher but not both. If you want to train him to point grouse or other birds you must consistently correct him or break him of flushing. This is where every- EVERY single lab I have hunted with proved to be a flusher and not a pointer. The dog is what the dog prefers as the end result. Does he point briefly with the intention of catching the animal resulting in him/her flushing the moment it thinks it can catch the animal? If so it is not a pointer even if it pointed. Be consistent and Toby may be shaped into a lab conditioned to point. IMHO there is nothing more awesome than a pointing dog locked up, intense in his point and demonstrating the control that centuries of selective breeding created. It is awesome to see a dog serve the purpose it was originally created for.
07-16-2010, 07:10 PM
#95
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
Sproul, you should get a couple birds and put them in a pen in the yard. Then make wire cages that hold the birds but allow their scent to permeate the air as would be natural. Then take thos caged birds with you for your walks in the woods and hide them without Toby seeing them. Bring him in the direction of the birds from downwind and see what he does as soon as he starts getting birdy whoa him. If you want your dog to point he must be taught that flushing is not accepted. There is no gray area here, your dog is either a pointer or a flusher but not both. If you want to train him to point grouse or other birds you must consistently correct him or break him of flushing. This is where every- EVERY single lab I have hunted with proved to be a flusher and not a pointer. The dog is what the dog prefers as the end result. Does he point briefly with the intention of catching the animal resulting in him/her flushing the moment it thinks it can catch the animal? If so it is not a pointer even if it pointed. Be consistent and Toby may be shaped into a lab conditioned to point. IMHO there is nothing more awesome than a pointing dog locked up, intense in his point and demonstrating the control that centuries of selective breeding created. It is awesome to see a dog serve the purpose it was originally created for.
the other day he pointed for 13 minutes on rabbit then started his stalk.
he looks back when he gets close to see if i want to join him.
he only does this at home.
i can hide a grouse wing 200 yds from house and he will find it in 3 minutes.but does not hold a point,he just runs right to it.
i believe if i would yell STAY when he got close to wing, he would STAY.i never tried it .
but i dont have to yell or say WHOA/STAY for toby to hold a point,he does it.but like said ONLY AT HOME HE DOES IT.
in woods he runs ahead 20 yds back/forth and FLUSHES.
07-18-2010, 05:50 AM
#96
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
You don't TRAIN a Lab or any other breed to point.
They either point naturally (genetically) or they don't.
If you "teach" a dog to point, you have actually taught them to "stand game" -- standing game is markedly different than a natural point.
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They either point naturally (genetically) or they don't.
If you "teach" a dog to point, you have actually taught them to "stand game" -- standing game is markedly different than a natural point.
.
07-18-2010, 09:36 AM
#97
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,563
I was going to leave this alone and let it die out but it is clear that there is no way I currently can..
I deer hunt as well but that has nothing to do with hunting dogs unless you are in a state that allows hunting deer with dogs. I have never stated labs do not have good noses period. The wife and I had one that lived for eighteen years. First of all do you think when I am or most other hunters looking for birds would rather have thier dogs bringing in or pointing antlers out? Sorry when mine are bird hunting all other game is off limits. Including non-game items like antlers. Yes I am willing to bet 10 to 1 that the Irish will in fact find birds faster and quicker than any lab could. Provided that they come from the hard to find hunting lines. It took me almost 6 months to find the line of 100% pure Irish Setter hunting lines that I was looking for. They came from imports perhaps you may need to do alot more research than you have to know more about them. Yes the black lab we had was a drug dog until it was put down just after it's eighteen birthday. So stop right there when you talk noses to me. If you think I do not know what I am talking about guess a again. For little information the Irish Setters were bred for 1 thing. " Bird Hunting " that is until the show people got a hold of them. The same thing is currently happening to other breeds as well right now as we speak. The lab is currently being way over bred which is currently creating some pretty darn ugly tempered ones. Whether you are aware of it or not. There is a lot of other hunting breeds facing the same thing as well. Why? To make the show people happy and nothing else. With any breed of dog do your research which can not be expressed enough. In case you are not aware of it there is Irish drug dogs as well as gaurd dogs out there as well right now. They do not make drug dogs because of bad noses. But they do have a hard time with thier energy being what it is.
Phil most bird hunters also deer hunt. But why would the lab be the #1 choice by hunters who do care about antler hunting if their nose is inferior to other sporting breeds? After all most hunters dont care what breed of dog to buy when they decide to invest so much time and money into a dog to train to hunt antlers, they just want the best breed to increase their odds as much as possibe from the start. (after all it is more difficult to train any breed of dog to hunt and locate antlers than it is to train any breed to hunt and locate any game species)
Last edited by Phil from Maine; 07-18-2010 at 09:39 AM.
07-18-2010, 10:41 AM
#98
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
Phil I think your missing the point ( no pun intended) of this thread, all you keep talking about is bird hunting, But this thread is about the most versitale sporting breed, not which breed is the best for hunting birds only.
Also I never claimed that the lab had a better nose than any other breed, I just asked a question""" why are labs the best breed to train to hunt antlers if their nose is inferior (never said their nose wasnt) to other sporting breeds? And pointed out the FACT that it is more difficult for a dog to locate an antler by scent than it is to locate a live bird and I have never came across any one that uses Irish Setters to hunt antlers. Pike
Also I never claimed that the lab had a better nose than any other breed, I just asked a question""" why are labs the best breed to train to hunt antlers if their nose is inferior (never said their nose wasnt) to other sporting breeds? And pointed out the FACT that it is more difficult for a dog to locate an antler by scent than it is to locate a live bird and I have never came across any one that uses Irish Setters to hunt antlers. Pike
Last edited by J Pike; 07-18-2010 at 11:05 AM.
07-18-2010, 11:12 AM
#99
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 12,563
I was not refrencing you on this one.. However I am mostly just a bird hunter but that does not mean that they are versatile. I was simply making a point to what Mustad wrote on one of my statements that is all.
07-18-2010, 11:33 AM
#100
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 283
I've had experience with GSP's, Weimraners, and a Viszla. The Viszla was the best dog I ever had, but it was sheerly based on the amount of time I worked with that dog. Too bad he got hit on the road at a young age. Next would be the GSPs. The Weimies were killing machines, just a little head strong and took a firm hand.
I did take our last German Shepard out pheasant hunting and we tagged out the first hour. There is lot to be said for a "biddable" dog and being able to "read" a dogs actions.
I did take our last German Shepard out pheasant hunting and we tagged out the first hour. There is lot to be said for a "biddable" dog and being able to "read" a dogs actions.