Training
 

I am seeing a trainer that is basicly training me and my setter at the same time. I have seen the trainer once and am on a training plan like this

Tape a bird wing to a canvous bumper. kennel the dog, remove bumper from fridge, drag on the ground for 2 min. and drag off about 20 paces. release the dog to find

Does this sound good for begining training? My setter is not real birdy. She is 1 yr old and has only been on a bird at her first training session. We have only been doing this for 2 days, but as soon as I bust the wing out of the bag, her ears go up and starts to get impatient.

How long should I wait to get her back out on more birds? BTW, she is not picking up the bumper, licking it. She retrieves plastic bumpers, sticks, and toy birds, ducks.....

RE: Training
 

I just read a really good article last night in Waterfowl & Retriever Magazine about this same issue. A world renoun trainer(forgot his name) was saying it all comes back to the force fetch. Which is what I have been working on with my 11 month old lab. I am not really sure if the setter world is the same or not. Does She deliever to hand? If so I would say FF would cure the problem. Where's Doc at her could answer this one..

RE: Training
 

She will deliver bumpers, sticks, balls, to hand. Does not seem to like the bird wing canvas bumper. I am trying to play with her, with it to get her excited about getting a hold of it. Flopping it around on the ground seems to make her want to pick it up.

RE: Training
 

Have you done any live bird introduction?
How old is your dog?


.

RE: Training
 

Ya I think Doc is on to it.. Live bird was going to be my next question. Sometimes they really need that live bird to bring out that "instinct"...

RE: Training
 

What are you trying to train your dog to do? It's a setter, so I assume you want the dog to find and point birds.

What you're doing now is teaching your dog to follow YOUR scent to find a bumper with some feathers on it. This is great if you plan on testing your dog somewhere where a duck or rabbit drag is required, but there is little value I see for a hunting dog.

I would get this dog on live birds as soon as possible. Build her desire for birds as soon as you can. Once that desire is there, then start the force fetch work. Getting your dog to retrieve will be a piece of cake as long as the desire is there. If the desire is not there, you have no need to force fetch the dog anyways.

My suggestion to you would be to call a NAVHDA chapter - http://www.navhda.org/chapters.html

Many of these chapters have training days where you can benefit from the experience from all the members. You could also ask your trainer to break out his bird launchers and help you get your dog into some birds. Personally, I have a lot of trouble understanding why he would start you with an exercise like this. I have never attached feathers to any bumpers for any reason whatsoever.

My .02.

Good luck.

RE: Training
 

Cool, thanks for the input,
The only live birds she has been on has been the one day of training. I guess I should just make more of a point to get out to the preserve and get her on the birds. I think I will have the trainer go with me the next time to see what I can learn from him. I can save myself about 20.00 by going out without the trainer.

She is 12 months old. I would love for her to retrieve ducks and goose. But I think I am just going to end up hunting more upland!! I enjoy upland a lot, just havent done it a lot. Once a year in fact because I didnt have a dog...

I am open to any suggestions for home taining inbetween outings to the preserve. I think I am going to continue our find the bird thing. She is getting a lot of excitement for birds. Now when I let her out and tell her to find the bird, she runs out, not walk around, and uses her nose.

RE: Training
 

As Mustand sed

NAVHDA is there to help train you train your own versatile pointing dog before and after the shot on both land and water. This is accomplished through the grass roots of NAVHDA or at the chapter level.

Right now I am working on my streadiness program with a slightly older dog as it is time. We are also working on her duck search at the same time. Each is different and coming along. I am almost done with force fetch and she is doing that rather nicely too. Each training session I can see improvments.
JW

RE: Training
 

NAVHDA is good but they mainly cater to versatiles. Another good field trail association is NSTRA. They also have chapters all around the country.

What I would do in your situation is read a few good books and videos. Delmar Smith/Bill Tarant book would be a good start.

If you already seeing a professional trainer, follow his advice (if you trust him) but I can't see where not putting your dogs on birds would hurt. But give upland birds a try, it's a blast when you have a good dog.

RE: Training
 

A Setter is a versatile dog Mite :D

RE: Training
 

A setter is a versatile dog.. When you are ready AR, come out to ludington and we can shoot ducks! PS.. I have retrievers! (not the pointing kind) !!

RE: Training
 

If a setter is a versatile dog then I wish someone told my dog about it. Sit quietly in a blind? Perhaps with drugs. Blood track a deer? Maybe if you tied a cookie to it. Retrieve? She'd look at me like, "you want me to put that in my mouth?!"

RE: Training
 

Ha that's funny!

RE: Training
 

Mite - That was your job. 75% of the setters tested last year in NAVHDA Prized in either NA or UT and even one passed the Invitational. The guy who passed his dog is a friend of mine. He took two dogs (both Setters) to the Invitational. One had to be pulled from the test for health reasons and the other one passed.

Bottom line, NAVHDA would be an excellent resource for the guy asking this question for training support.

RE: Training
 

It is noted in the early Irish setters to be natural retrievers in the field as well as waterfowling. Though I do not waterfowl hunt mine will retrieve naturally but doesn't carry the birds in the usual manner.;)
I have no idea on how to force fetch so I have no reseason to learn with natural retrieving skills of it's own. I have thrown sticks out in the water for it to retrieve though. I also see that if you run your dog fairly hard it will sit still for you. Once learned of waterfowling I think it would do OK in the blind as well.

RE: Training
 

And I strongly agree with mustad also as I have (with the help of chapters) trained many of my own dogs. Right now have a 3 yr old to which I let mature and is now ready. While I mainly trained basic obedience for the past 3 yrs and yes did hunt her - she has progressed to a maturity level I felt she was ready for some more intense training.

I after all am just a hunter who requires good manners from my dogs. Could care less about titles or other doggy games.

In the matter of 3 weeks we havewell on her way withher steadiness program, (Steady to flush, wing, shot and fall) got a good handle on her duck search capabilites as she is expanding each time sent and is now trained to deliver anything to hand quietly with confidence and enthusiasim.

JW

RE: Training
 

AR 34 eight point,
I don't even know of a trainer that uses such tactics, even the worst in our community has more sense than that. Dog Training is not rocket-science although, it does require dedication and common sense. I would help but, I am an ass (remember)
Good Luck

RE: Training
 

Ludington.... I may do that... My plans for opener are to be in Oscoda with my son. Thats not too far from there.

RE: Training
 

I see you agree with me..
I expected your rude reply, I can not see how your words would help anyone on the board. You prove every post how much of a jerk you are to anyone that has an opinion. I am sure if you agree with someone you would post negitivly because you did not post first.
I have not read one post from you where you explained anything, Only belittling others opinions.

I wont go any farther with this, I will skip all your posts. You know what I think of you.

RE: Training
 

Sorry fellas, I am new to this forum..

One a good note, after 6 days of this training, in my yard, in town, she is picking up the burlap bumper with the wings and bringing back to hand... the past 5 days all she wanted to do was lick the thing. I am going out Tues. to get here on more live birds. I was concerned when she would not pick up the wings, but would all the other things I threw. I have 3/4 of an acre and within 30 sec. she is finding the bumper anywhere in the yard. She is excited when I kennel her now, she knows she is going out to find the bird. She runs the yard like she should looking for the bird. After 6 days I think she is improving more than the last 7 month I have had her. I feel the live birds will be the thing that keeps her interested. I know she has it in her, I just need to make it happen..

I have read the 10 min. training book cover to cover and quite a few videos, I always feel that I missed a lot of opportunity not having her the first 5 months. With a little help and guidence, I feel this is going well.

My Setter is laid back... I think I will have a hard time keeping here awake in the blind!!

RE: Training
 

Mustad,
Yes I know. But this setter is just comming into her own. Last season, she's done real well by me atleast as I am not that stringent. She points, reposition if necessary, steady to flush (although I'm working on steady to shot) and isn't gunshy. I don't require her to retrieve but if she does (she started to retrieve naturally) then thats an added bonus. Where I hunt, even some of these very seasoned dogs can't find a winged pheasant as they'll run into the briars. The stuff is so thick, you can actually walk on top of it.

RE: Training
 

I think Dale has a very good point here AR. If you're going to be asking questions about dog training, keep in mind you need a thick skin.

Good luck,

RE: Training
 

I think this might be what you are after

RE: Training
 

Nice looking dog Dale. Too bad about the tail though.

RE: Training
 

You will have to explain

RE: Training
 

I'm not that big on Setters, but I find the 180 degree tail is much more stylish and traditional than the 90 degree. From what I've read and heard, the 90 degree tail is something that was infused into the breed here in North America. I assume your dog's tail is at 90 degrees when on point given where it is in the photo you posted.

RE: Training
 

There is absolutly nothing stylish at all about that dog. I looks like it going to lay down, tired, or creeping. That would never win any field trial in the USA.

RE: Training
 

Probably not Dale; because here in North America we have changed/bastardized the standard just like many other breeds. But no doubt in Europe where the breed standard comes from and where field trials are done on wild birds, not planted, you will see 100's of dogs like this. The difference between U.S. field trials and European field trials is the same difference between college football and the NFL, respectively.

BTW, check your training post in the classified section.

Cheers,

RE: Training
 

I would have to disagree. Field trials as we know them were born in the US. American field has been covering them since its conception. America has a long history of taking anything and making it better. Our Bastard English Setters of today are the result of years of selective breeding.Instead of being a slow and low pocher dog. The American version of the English Setter now can run with the King's Dog (English Pointer) Our Setters are big and bold and stand on point for as long as it takes to get to them and still look like amillion bucks
No other form of dog show or field trial in the world has even come close to the dedication of American Filed Trials.
1. The Dixie Plantation in Florida and Georgia was once comprised of 60,000 acres and was left to the Field Trial community through the Livingston Foundation.The original owner also owned the foundation Walking Horse which is the breed of horse most associated withfield trials and plantation hunting. Today the Dixie Plantation is home to the very prestigous Contiental Open All-Age Championship along with the National All-Age Derby Championship,region Ameature Championship and several classic trials
2. The Ames Plantation in Grand Junction TN(thousands and thousands of acres) was granted through a trust to hold the National All-Age Championship for as long as the American Field ses fit. (still today as it has been for the last 200 years no one is allowed to hunt quail on this property no matter how much money they have. They also hold lots of other horse-back trials including the Hobart Ames Chapionship
3. Hoffman, NC Field Trial grounds comprised of 57,000 acres is set aside for the sole purpose of running field trials. With my help and other board members it now holds the 2nd most prestigous Field Trial in the world. The National Shooting Dog Championship
4. H. Cooper Black memorail field trial grounds in Patrick, SC made up of over 8,000 acres has left to the field trial community. It holds such events as the SC Shooting Dog Championship, NBHA Championship, NSTRA SC regional Championship, NSTC Championship, and the National Upland Boykin Spaniel Championship.
I don't know them all but more land in The US has been set aside for field trials through owner trust funds than any other land trusts in the world.
I would bet that in the South alone there is billions of dollars worth of real estate that know one will do anything more than run Bird Dogs off Horse-Back on.
American Field also has field trial events run in Canada. Since the late 1800s Field trialers have been training in SK and Manitoba. Still today there are 8-10 Championship Trials run off horse-back and stakes that don't have the prestige of being considered a Ch. trial.
The real difference between NFL and college ball as you would say is the difference of ALL-AGE Horse-back trials being the NFL and the Shooting dog Horse-back trials being college ball. Everything else is something like little league
I almost forgot,98% ofAll-Age Championship and most Shooting Dog Championships are run on wild birds.
Planted Pen-raised birds are mostly used in walking trials or trials that a bird has to be shot for a retreive such as NSTC, NSTRA andthe Pass/ Fail system of the AKC,or the other one NAV thingy. I just can'tdo acompletion ribbon or hunt test pass.

RE: Training
 

I would have to disagree as well dale. Although I'm not questioning the integrity and committment of American field and it's supporters by any means, to say field trials were born in the U.S. is a huge stretch to say the least.

If you ever get up to it, you should head over to France for the spring trials. You will see something pretty amazing and eye opening.

RE: Training
 

I don't thinkthe french know a thing about bird dogs much less about competition. Seems like the only thing they ever knew about was cooking.Some of the places we run on in SK are bigger than the whole country of france.
I don't thinkthat USA invented field trials, but they sure did organize them. l like to think that at some point in time a filed trial was organized by a Plantation owner or Domain owner in other countries stating.
" I own the best bird dog in the land ."
"Who will put up a bet on their dog too say whoisthe best."
I can imagine that the trials started this way and breeding rights was soon to follow.

RE: Training
 

Dale,

You are very wrong regarding your opinion of the french field trials. You should try to go and see what these dogs do.

BTW, I question your comment about the wild birds. I've spoken with some people in American field and at least according to them, wild birds are rarely, if even then, used due to state wildlife regulations. What is often used are birds that are released a couple weeks prior to the test. These are far from wild birds and behave completely differently.

RE: Training
 

American Field sanctioned trials can be anything from horse-bakc to walking. National Bird Hunters Asociation, US Shoot to Complete, Shooting Dog walking and other variations. 99.9% of thease trials are run on a single course wether they are on state supported grounds or a shooting preserve. Yes they use pen raised birds.
The majority of single course Horse-Back trials are run the same way on pen raised birds 90% of the time.
Keep in mind that the difference between a 1 hour walking trial course (150-250 acres)and a 1 hour horse-back course is run on about 700-900 acres.
These are still what we consider the little league trials.
The Major League Open All-Age trials are mostly run on private plantations, Open Prairies in SK, ND, SD, MT, WA, ID
Only a very few of them are run on State supported grounds
98% of these trials are run on wild birds only.
Another thing about a Major trails is it is called a Championship, Classic, Free-For-All, or Inventational.
They are also National quailifing trials and are required torun on a minimum of 3 1 hour contigous courses. Allot of these places have 61Hr contiguos courses.
During a All-Age trail you will ride in the gallery about 6-7 miles each hour. The handler covers twice the ground and the dog about 3x as much in an hour. It takes a good horse and a tuff ass to cover this much ground in a day.
A typical major trail will draw 80-120 dogs. The are run in braces for 1 hour. 3 braces in the morning and 3 braces in the afternoon for a total of 6 braces or 12 dogs per day. It is also normal to pick up a brace or two each day.
If a dog fails to back, you must pick your dog up.
If the dog busts the birds or fails to stop for birds it goes back on the dog wagon. If your dog points a marked bird, pick-it-up.
If your dog does not run enough or looks bad on point. Pick-it up.
Your dog must be seen atleast every 10 mins. on a 1 hr course. Failure to show your dog after 10 mins. is grounds for disqualification. When the judge calls time you have the same 10 mins. to produce your dog. Either by finding him on point or bringing him back to the judges.
A typical day will start off with break-awy at 8AM if both dogs complete the first hour they are picked up and are judged accordingly. You may also have to ride an additional mile on the course before you put down a new brace of dogs. You could also wait 10 mins for 1 of the handlers to produce a dog at time.
One these major trials running 100 or more dogs may also run 7 days a week for 2 weeks strait.
At the Contintal Field Trial on the Dixie Plantation in 01 I ran 21 dogs in that trail and had a dog to run almost every day for the 2 1/2 weeks this trail was going on.
At some of these trails they also do a call-back. A call-back is when the judges say they want to see a couple dogs run for a 2 hr brace in order to name a Champion. At some trials the Judges will name a dog of the day. That dog is subject to run in the call-back after all the other dogs have run. This could extend the trail another couple days.
Currently The Dominion Chicken Championship is being run just outside of Stoughton, SK they should rap this one up soon. Next the Trials move to Broomhill, MB and will run there for the next 2 weeks. I don't know how far you are away from it, but you should go and ride a day or 2 in the gallery if you can.

RE: Training
 

Sounds like a hoot dale. I'm done playing dog games for the year though. It's been non stop for me since last Feb either running my dogs or training other's. I'm way behind in getting ready for hunting season. I just missed opening day for canada's here in Quebec to run my dog in Nova Scotia over the weekend. I'm going to be swamped over the next couple of weeks getting my tree stands installed, duck boat ready. Then everything starts up here. I have people coming in from overseas in 4 weeks and I need to have everything ready for them. I'll be out in MB at the end of October hunting. I assume it will be done by then though.

I stopped playing NSTRA because of the habits of other dogs. If the dog doesn't back, it should be able to win, imo. At the same time, it's nice because it gives a venue anybody can play in.