Thoughts on training
 

I've been reading alot on bird dog training lately. A few books I like and a few which can arguebly be improved. I have read some instances where the author says to avoid this type of equipment and others use. I have read about the thoughts on certain breeds by the authors. I'm currently reading Bill Tarrant's book on training. It's basically, a compilation of interviews of various professional trainers and their outlook.

This is what I've concluded so far (after 5 books, 3 more to read).

It's not really which method you use but if you use common sense into your training,you'll get a nice hunting dog.Its the common sense in which makes the method you use work. For example, instead of asking, 'how do I make my dog better to impress friends?' common sense would ask 'do I really need to train my dog to do this?' and 'how do I make it fun?'.

Alot of this came about because I'm currently trying to train my dog to be steady on wing and shot. She'swell woah trained in the yard (using the Smith method woah post), ie. I can woah her, step away, circle her, bend down pick a rock up, then call her to me. And while she's comming to me woah her again. All well and fine? Nope, she's lost her enthusiasm for training even when I cut back her training to 15 mins/week and before that once a month for the last year. She's been pre-conditioned (pre-trained) in alot of ways, wellsocialized, etc. For woah pre-conditioning, before feeding, set down the bowl with her alittle back then woah her. Then release her with a load 'GO!'.

Do I really need her to be steady? Yes, because I often ask people who don't have dogs to join my friend and I and for safety she should be steady. How do I make it fun? Now, that's the million dollar question. Adapt her pre-conditioning but use a crippled bird and introduce fetch?

I want to hear yourthoughts on general training and/or methods I should try.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Big ? number one.... how old is your dog? Both now and when she started giving you the cold shoulder?

I'm no bird dog trainer, I'm a waterdog guy, but the similarites are there.

I've found that the hardest part about training from a trainer standpoint is stooping to a dogs intellect level. Most people try and overcomplicate things. Dogs are very simple animals, but they have the ability to learn quickly. The best advice I ever got on training was this: Obedience drills are critical.. having a dog that knows you run the show will stop a lot of problems before they start. The other thing is that all dog training is crawl, walk, run. Gotta start it easy.

From a dog standpoint, the hardest thing is holding the dogs attention on short training runs. When the dog has been locked up all day, it wants to go out and stretch, goof off, pee on everything in sight. I learned not to expect decent training conditions until after 5 or 10 minutes of sniffing around and stretching. The dog knows when its time to get with it.

Common sense does have a lot to do with it, thats for sure. The other big key is consistancy.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I started training at around 6 months of age. There was no hitting just leash work with heel and woah. You know the drill, 'heel' walk alittle then 'woah' then 'heel' again. Early sessions was perhaps doing that twice. At nine months, it got a little more complicated with walking in differing directions and also introduced thechain gang (actually only 3 sessions overall - she stopped fighting it). But usually, 5-10 mins. At one year of age, I made sure she did the routine perfectly twice before ending. This could be anywhere from a couple of minutes to 20. I started the woah post due her reluctance to follow the 'woah' command. I would 'heel' her then 'woah' and she would stop briefly then come to me on her own. Spent the next 6 months on 'woah' specifically but she started to show signs of frustration - whining then jumping on me after spending too much time in a training session.

For the longest time she would reluctantly come to me after woah. That is, goes into 1/2 speed. I originally thought that's her cop-out but not entirely sure now. I'm trying to evaluate if I put too much training. She's now three and just started get back into training but only a weekly session. I noticed that the moment I tell her a command, she goes into 1/2 speed hence trying to find another way to make it fun again or atleast tolerable.

I do have an idea I want to try, an adaptation of Buddy's barrel method. Once long ago, someone showed me how to take a dog and place him on an unsteady surface to see how they will look on point. It was on a piece of plywood resting on a metal garbage can. The dogs went rigid. But it is more stable then the barrel and there's no chance of slipage. I figure couple of times on the garbage can then place it on a sturdy bucket then evenually just the ground. But this will only be done at a friends house who has pigeons visits (they feed them). I figured if I can't get birds where I live, I have to go where the birds are. Any thoughts?

RE: Thoughts on training
 

One of the things that helped me alot was watching a dvd on training, I know there has to be several out there, the one I used was Training Your Pointing Dog by Scott Miller. It was pretty good for what I had wanted and helped alot. What I am hereing you say is your pup might be getting to much of the whoaing and it needs to get a little running in to go with it. I am not sure if you are near a place where you can let your pup run and try and find a few birds on it's own or not. That is something I would throw into the mix when I was training mine. I had also taken mine to a bird farm a couple of times so I could have better control and watch what he was doing. After coming home I would take him to a field up in back of here and through a chuckar around and tel him to retrieve. Sometimes I had to tease him with it to get him interested in it. Then have someone hold the my setter until I was ready to get him to retrieve it. I also tried to make it as much fun for my dog as I could and for me it worked out good.
Good Luck with your pup Mite..

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Is your dog ecollar conditioned? (ie, do you use an ecollar?)


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RE: Thoughts on training
 

Hey Phil,
She's not a pup as she is already three years old with three seasons behind her. Last season was good. She pointed a few pheasants and I shot a few. We averaged 2 times a week, sometimes 3 times. I also take her to the dog park daily which is heavily wooded and alot of standing water around. She has fun hunting the ducks there. As for drive, she's very birdy to the point of stubborn.

Unfortuneately, there's isn't a game farm nearby. The closest one would be in Ellensburg which would most likely require an overnight stay as the drive there is around 2-2.5 hrs one way. Plus, it would require driving thru the pass which is snowed at the moment. But we are planning to go there this summer.

I was just wondering about any opinions on Buddy Smith's barrel method adaptation. A 55 gal drum would be too unwieldy.

On of the trainers Bill Tarrant's Gun Dog Training - New Strategies from Today's Top Trainers is Bob Spouse. He was a red setter man and once editor of The Flushing Whip. He talks about back in the '30s, his grandfather owned red setters with Campbell blood. This is the same line of red setters started by George and Milton Campbell in which back in 1884, Joe Junior (mixed red setter) beat the famous Llewellin setter Gladstone in a one-to-one competition. It goes on about how the red setter was saved by outcrossing. Very interesting story.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Mine has been e-collared but I use it very little. I only put it on him to make sure he doesn't try to run a moose or bear on me. He has already been around deer and showed no sign of interest in them. However i still want to play it safe with him.

As for drive, she's very birdy to the point of stubborn.

Mine will get that way from time to time that is when I break out the check cord or over hereI can take them on a dirt road and just let them run some of the energy out so I can work them better. That normally solves the problems for me.

I have never heard tell of the barrel method and it may work out alright for you. It wouldn't work very well for me though as picking up the 70 lb setter just to have him jump down would get to be a pain.

On of the trainers Bill Tarrant's Gun Dog Training - New Strategies from Today's Top Trainers is Bob Spouse. He was a red setter man and once editor of The Flushing Whip. He talks about back in the '30s, his grandfather owned red setters with Campbell blood. This is the same line of red setters started by George and Milton Campbell in which back in 1884, Joe Junior (mixed red setter) beat the famous Llewellin setter Gladstone in a one-to-one competition. It goes on about how the red setter was saved by outcrossing. Very interesting story.

Alot of folks have been doing this that is for sure, mine is a cross with the irish Red and White setter and the Irish Red setters and are very smart hunting dogs.. I enjoy hunting with them but, I have noticed after letting them run some of the energy off helps them do a better hunt for me.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Mite:
I have had this same issue with several dogs, they all whoa wonderful in training, but you get them in the field and its a new animal... Been there done that believe me.

The only way I have been able to get a dog to be steady to wing and shot is tostay on their butts like a rat on a cheeto... You need to use an ecollar, and I use "careful" when the dogs are just on point and starting to creep, then "whoa", when I am flushing, 10 out of 10 times your dog is going to ignore this "whoa", well, ecollar.... Everytime he breaks, he is corrected. Put them between my legs and grab their chest with a firm "whoa". Meaning to the dog that the correction was for breaking on the whoa... This takes persistence like with all training, but more so just for the fact that its a force break of sorts. Gradually you will see some progress.Just make sure you release the dog for the retrieve or to continue hunting, I use "lets go" or "dead bird" depending on a kill or not.

Also** When dogs go on point they are given whoa, which is basically stay. They are not allowed to move unless I say so. So when I get runners (birds that sneak off) I will walk ahead 5 steps or so and try to flush, if the bird ran, then I give a "lets go" to sort of let the dog workit out and reset his point on the new location... Makes sense I hope. Its important you dont leave the dog frozen on point for too long tring to flush before you let him reset, then the dog isnt really gettting to hunt... If you dont flush right away, step back and release the dog to reset. Let the sniffer find the bird.

Good luck.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Doc E, yes, she's collar conditioned. Like Phil, I do not use it alot. I only use it when absolutely necessary and I've used it only for recall. Last year, only 2-3 times. Once forwhen she went off to 'hunt' for another party. That could have ended badly if the other party didn't want my dog hunting for them. I have yet to apply it around the belly for point of contact training, ie. I normally use a check chord around the belly for point of contact 'woah' training.

Phil, this dog I don't really know about exercising before training. The moment I start giving a command is when she goes 1/2 speed, no matter the situation. Running for us is checking out the woods for ducks, squirrels, etc. During socialization time, she could really care less of the other dogs most of the time. If the other dog initiates play then she will play. But taking walks with other dogs, she'll just follow along. When we are alone, she's more hunting and running which she enjoys. During those times, I can woah her to pick brambles off her coat with no problems. Come to think of it, she does exceptionally well listening in the field, like she wants to listen. Like calling her off chasing shorebirds to get back to real hunting she'll come running. Strange. I'm more confused then ever. She listens better in the field then the yard? Am I reading her wrong? Could her reluctance be that she's just bored with training?

Sorry for rambling but this has been bugging me for the past year. She use to stand briefly then go to me in the heeling position. For months, I've been trying to correct herof it. 1/2 the time she'd do it the other she won't. But,recently she'sbeen doing it perfectly so we stopped.Now, I wonder if making her do it perfectly twice was causing her NOT to know when training was at anend.She known the command long before the woah post but got tired and bored? I wondering boredom because of excitement level. In the field, say 'woah' and she'll just do it. In training, I have to be firm then calling her,have to wait while she slowly drags her feet.

EODLT, this summer I'll be training her on birds for sure. In the meantime, I've been looking for ways to get birds. When this weather breaks, I'll dig up my old pigeon trap and try to trap some pigeons. But I have to ask my friend first as they feed them and think of them aspets. Leave it anywhere else and it will be stolen by the next day.

p.s. Sorry for jumping all over but this post took well over an hourwritting because I've been seriously thinking about why she's been doing what she's been doing. I wanted her woah yard work to go perfectly in order to overlay it in the field. But thinking of all the times in the field I've used it and how well she listened kinda gave me an epiphany.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

mite if you really want some help with that contact me via email at [email protected]

RE: Thoughts on training
 

EODLT is correct. By far the easiest and quickest way to train Steadyis to properly use the ecollar.
The ecollar is used to correct the breaking, and not to enforce WHOA.


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RE: Thoughts on training
 

Why not post your thoughts here? That way all of us can have
a chance to learn something.


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RE: Thoughts on training
 

Because hed rather sell them for the low low price of....

RE: Thoughts on training
 

BKL, thanks but I think I'm on the right track. It's sorta somethingI have to figure out on my own. It's learning totruely read my dog andto figure out whatto train orin this case what not to. Plus, I like to think. Like now, I'm thinking my dog is much smarter than I gave her credit for.

Inow believe faults were made in training by me. And I tried to figure out which ones and why. I didn't recognize what my dog was doing. I thinkherreluctancefor training is her both her cop-out and her boredom. I believe dogs can't tellhow much time has passed in the Now. They can tell when, ie. a certain time everyday by routine, but not 'its been 15 mins'. So, she's been doing things by rote including briefly woahing then breaking. She didn't care since there was no painor that I wasconstantly lifting her back or saying louder woahs. That was her routine. Her cop-out.

I rememberas a pupwas always sticking her nose in what I was doing.She would stick her noseinto everything I did. Like an inquisitive 2yr old child asking what am I doing every minute. Now, ifit doesn't concern her then she'll tune me out. Just like in her training. Praise wasn't working with her since I'm always playing and laughing with her (she's my buddy).

Hmmm..I guess I should have put the collar on her belly.

Well, if this is true then any training should go muchfaster once I'm able toincorporate some kind of stimulus into what I want her to learn.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Thats the idea...

It wont take but a couple nicks from the collar when she breaks that she will realize thats not the thing to do... You will have a totally different animal when that collar goes on and she knows what behaivor sets it off. She will learn her boundaries, what she can and cant get away with, she CANNOT get away with breaking... Under NO circumstances!

She will come around shortly.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I wouldn't nick the dog until the bird is in the air unless it's absolutely the last resort. You stand the risk of getting your dog to blink if you're not careful. If that happens, correcting the problem is not fun.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Thats what I said...

Thats what "breaking" means, the dog is not steady when the bird flushes, or the dog is "breaking" your whoa.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

So where at should he start at with the ecollar? Or what level should he start with? Would it be wise to use continuos or just nick? What will happen if she doesnt learn her boundries fast enough, what should we do? More heat with the collar? How should we go about all of this? Thanks Jonesy

RE: Thoughts on training
 

RE: Thoughts on training
 

ok, thanks Jonesy

RE: Thoughts on training
 

After reading your initial post again, I see now what you are saying. In your example, my concern would be more when the dog breaks on "careful." That seems to be where there would be risk especially if you're using a nick to try to correct this. Personally, I don't like to talk this much with the dog on point. I prefer to let the bird teach the dog that creeping isn't allowed. Once the bird is flightbound, I don't have to worry as much about the dog blinking when corrected. If the dog continues to creep, it's a good sign that more yardwork is needed.

That said, I have had to nick a dog to prevent it from creeping; but as I said earlier this was a very last resort with a dog that has the amount of drive and desire that there would be little risk in getting the dog to blink.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I only use careful as a pre-whoa. If the dog is locked on point and not tring to reset or chase a bird. If he starts to creep up a little bit, I will give a "careful", * When I go to flush, I give a "whoa", meaning to stay put no matter what until he is released... If he refuses my "whoa" he is nicked. I dont nick for ignoring my careful, its really more of just a reminder than a command, whoa is a command though.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I would be very careful using the ecollar.from what Mite is saying he don't use one much and i think that could cause problems. [/align]

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I have to agree with the fact if you do not need it,do not use it.. I can't help but to wonder what everyone did before the e-collar came around? I like to think of my dogs has hunting buddies verses my hunting slave, do as I say cause you will.. or else.. Just my opion to it for whatever it is worth. I do not feel the e-collar is a cure all do all..

RE: Thoughts on training
 

It is, but then isnt a fix, what the ecollar does......if taught properly.......is an extension of the check cord. It will alow a fair correction with the dog.....afterdog has been taught what the collar is being used for.

Now old schoolers would do several things alot harsher to the dogs for breaking.

Times have changed, if you do the foundation properly an dont cut corners, and dont be in a big hurry to get the check cord off, it will all show itself over time. You be fair to dog an it will be fair with you, teach the what an how, let the dog show you it is understanding the what and how, and there is not any confusion, between you and the dog. During the steadying process, put the dog in a sucessful environment.....and it will succeed. Dogs will tell (show) you when they are ready to go to he next level.
Thanks Jonesy

RE: Thoughts on training
 

This is alittle off topic but still relates to my observations. A question first.

How smart do you think a dog really is?

I don't mean cognitive ability like solving a puzzle, but how easy does it learn a behavior or command. I've been thinking about pre-conditioning and how it relates to training. One book, How to train gun dogs train themselves, Joan Bailey gives a pretty good answers that she gained from behaviorist. The rest of the book I question.

Her premiss are:
Dog's capacity to learn within the first year is more than any other years. (using wolves for behavior)
During the first year, the dog learns from the pack leader, ie. tries to keep the pack leader happy.

Now, this question: Do dog's learn by repetition or association?

Let me explain. Alot of training method depend upon repetition. Treat training in particular. You show the treat, command the dog, then reward it. Simple. Repeat as necessary. You now have a condition response. Take away the treat, command the dog.Through repetition the dog makes the mental leap and obeys. You actually changed the conditioned behavior. Now, did the dog actually learned it or is this just another conditioned response?

You try to create a senario that resembles the actualconditions. You repeat the senario until you get the response you want. That's becomes the conditioned response. The dog goes through the motions. Then you hope the dog can make the mental leap.

In this conditioned response, it's basically saying that dogs are stupid. They can't learn untilthey go thrusomething similar over and over. Then transition (if senario is close to actual conditions) should be automatic.

Now, assocation. If the dog learns by assocation then why all this conditioningand repeatition?For example, teaching woah, you teach it once.You only repeatexplaining (showing)what you (pack leader) wants. Then it makes the association Word - do something - leader happy. Then you try different things to make sure it knows it, that is, woah from the back, front, when walking, etc. Those are for your assurance but the dog has learned woah. You are teaching one association but changing the environment.

Final question: are older dogs harder to teach? This is just brain development. In wolves, by age two they are already full members of the pack andare havinglitters themselves. I noticed my dog stop being inquisitive around the same age.

These are just observations I made and my opinions. I'm sure they'll change as time goes. But it seems tome that thepack leadermentality, wanting to make the pack leader happy and a dog learns by association is correct. If correct, then the pup can be taught at a very early ageby actually do it instead of repeating a senario likemock fetching.

As for why did my dogconstantly breakwoah during training, Jonesy hit it. I was reading my dog correctly but my dog wasn't reading me. I wasn't putting enough inflection into my voicewhile praising or I wasn'tdistinct enough with it. I was just saying 'good girl' and pattingher on the head.Well, it wasn't enough to distinquish it between my normal behavior.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I'm not training or anything, but just for future reference, what's an ecollar?

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Sam,[/align][/align]Ok, this is a good part of the topic, most don't stop an think about. [/align][/align]A dog is very smart when you work with and help them figure out how to handle....the work, the handle, hunt, game, and retrieve if necessary. What tends to happen is the person gets in a hurry because it don't see an immediate response in what was taught today.......the people don't allow the space of learning to be shown by the dog. So they start trying something different, dog still don't show, so they change again.....before you know it dogs all boogered up, it don't know which way to turn, and then it turns into the dogs fault, never the person's. The person did not stay consistent with the program.[/align][/align]Dogswill learn by both means, if you will have the patience to let them. You teach steady work, by repetition...in different situations. The association, is overlayment of the bird into the fieldwork of repetition........it all stays the same, bird flush, you use ecollar, you say whoa if ya need......it all comes back to just stop and stand. When you teach the dog how to stop and stand, the exact way you taught it...."HERE".....teach it the same way"THERE" that way there is no confusion. Its just like retrievers, sit means sit....why say stay? Dogs don't understand English...stay would mean sit also.....right??[/align][/align]You mentioned the motions......the training program....along with repetition, an association..........is the motions. If you don't have the dog on a check cord an have it under control....along with the bird....what will get learned by the dog.....that it can get away with anything it wants. As we see with all the internet dog boogers, most get in a hurry to get the dog off the check cord, and free run with e-collar. So it is really a mis-read of the dog. If you set the dog and the bird up, to beunder a controlled situation, the dog will learn, because there is no room for slips.When the dog isn't allowed slips, or major slips, it tightens up on the staunchness, before you know it, you can turn your back on the dog, and not have to get the bird outta there, dog is showing you its understanding what we have taught it. It is trying to be steady.[/align][/align]When you move to the front and get the bird up, because of dog coming with you.....check cord don't need to be off, he isn't showing you anything but not being ready to go to the next part of training. Or if half way does it right, Or lets say 4 outta5 times, over the last 3-4 days....its still not right, the dog hasn't gotten enough under his belt to have the fair corrections needed. That is a situation where you cant trust what the dog has shown you before. It isn't ready to move on.[/align][/align]A dog will always read the voice the eyes and the touch. We have to decipher when or what to do. Some dogs wiggle outta there skin when we speak, so don't do it, some will do on the touch, don't do it. You can pet an talk to when the session is done. Keep the dog tight through the work, so it doesn't slip, and before you know it, dogs turning out to be a class act. I don't whoa a dog, I am not going intimidate the dog to do what I ask. I show it an build from there. If it don't wanna point what it smells, bump the bird, we shouldn't be pointing the bird for it, people say its not why they teach it.[/align]But it sure does overlay into the bird work, very, often. Hope this helps you out Sam, Thanks, Jonesy[/align]

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Jonesy that is a great explanation and very good post[/align]

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Jonesy,
I agree with PA Gobbler but I thinking in a more fundamental sense. Yourtips are great and should be in a training book but thinking about training methods, like evaluating different training methods. For birddogs thats hard because there's no getting around overlaying.You can't represent actual hunting. You can only mimic it like field trialsdo (that's if you only need a hunting dog; FTs are something else again).

Retrieving work is one command in which yard work can closely resemble field work. I have never considered FF my dog because I don't mind picking the bird up.Simple retrieving work would be nice but not really essential. So, whenmy dog was young, I did the hallway and the yard, toss, checkchord trick. When she was older, I tossa ball and say fetch afew times, sheran, picked it up and dropped it within a few feet of me (which was great).

Now, I tossa ball and say fetch, she runs to it and picks it upbut I have to userecall if I want the ball again.

I could stand and make her fetch but then it would be FF, hold the object, then 'give' or a pinch. I don't need FF because I don't shoot that many birds a year andshe won't be exposed to the command fetch enough.

If I were to do it, in this case w/o worrying about steadying her fetch up, would this have worked instead of the hallway and yard &checkchord trick?

(I would do this at theage of4-5 months old.)

I put a checkchord on her. I then get a pheasant wing (to represent the bird or better yet a frozen coturnix quail). I let her get used to the smell. I then place it on the ground in front of her. Say 'fetch' excitedly thensomehow make her pick upthe wingand make her drop it in my hand. Praise her loudly. Repeat until she gets it correctly.

At this point, she should have made an association: "fetch" - pickup wing and drop it - he's happy.

So then any subsequent variation, like toss it to the left, right, in the bushes, is still the same lesson and using the same association you built previously: "fetch" - pick up wing and drop it - he's happy.

In a sense, that is what you would do to force fetch. Place the dog on a table for better control, teach it step by step what you want done. But FF is pressure applied, where there is nothing I wrote above has pressure. The only repeating is done is to show the dog whats need as opposed to constantly repeating a routine like saying fetch then tossing a toy then pulling her in.

It's like an average house dog.Say'come' and it comes. Say 'sit' and it sits. Say 'stay' and walk away and it stays. Now, instead mix it up. Say 'sit' and it will still come to you first. It won't do what you told it to do, that is 'sit' on the spot. Or say 'stay' and it will likely just come to you and sit. It's conditioned to a routine. That's different from FF because in FF you are teaching the dog exactly what you want. There's no routine. It takes awhile but you only have to teach it once in the dog's lifetime (unless it forgets). You don't FF a dog during summer then FF again before hunting season then FF again the next summer, etc.

So, in this case I would go directly to a simplifed FF without the pressure (pinch). Would that work?

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Mite, and others, hopefully this might help, [/align]Everything we do with dogs should be a routine in one way or another, whether or not its just loading an unloading, bird work, obedience work, travel, chain gangs, retrieving, whatever....it should all try and stay in a form of routine....dogs are creature of habit, weteachthem our routine, what and how we want things, with our patience and time, they comply. They learn to understand what an how we want, by our teaching......if they don't do this....this happens, if they do this....nothing happens.....most prefer nothing to happen. You put a dog in an environment to be successful, and it will....immediately, or with some time...but it will, they want to succeed.[/align][/align]Methods of training.......biggest method, is patience, confidence, read the dog, and patience. Styles of training, that can be a whole nother ball field, With the style I use, it works very well for me and my timing, it is very simple, and black and white.Mydogs dont get confused, and theowners dont get confused.It works with all breeds.They can betough as nails, and softer than soft.You don't need a bunch of extra bells and whistles to work a dog, I will not argue about training, and will not argue aboutthe styles. But you, and others have known me long enough, I will supply the info needed to try and get a start with the fix, its hard helping on the internet, because you never get the whole story, so we gotta sorta weed through the bad, to get to the good. I will usually offer my #, the ones that are serious, will call.[/align][/align]The FF issues, if I have a pup, or young dog here that enjoys the natural retrieve, I will make it happen....through out the training time that the dog is here. The biggest thing that I see and feel. Is the average, will get a decent retrieve, and not let the dog carry the item, and be allowed to show it off. They get in a big hurry to get it from the dog, and throw it again. That is when the boogers start....... or they do way to many, at each session. Now,some dogs are ok to that, but as a house rule, most aren't, people don't think that, so dog gets a chance to fail......instead of being done.....with the retrieves.[/align]When I start a dog, I do no limb tossing, or ball stuff, I am worried about it wanting to retrieve the bird. I will do wings some but not really that much, I will start the work on birds, and building the desire...plus start the handle, and the final being the retrieve. In my program, on what an how I do....for me this works very well.[/align]With your dog, you aren't worried about the retrieve, so why risk boogering the dog up it totally?That's is the same deal as training, as soon as the dog shows you its understanding the retrieve part, people automatically start something else.........before the dog totally proves to you that "it has got it." So the corners get cut in the FF drill also, come off table to quick, or start ecollar to fast, alot of stuff plain an simple gets boogered up, because of hurrying, and cutting corners...plus not allowing to be a pup for a while. I can have a retriever that is between 3-5 mo. retrieving to hand, and starting to stand in the heel position, without a check cord on........because I do things small now, that will help big later.[/align][/align]The way that you have done your program, sounds ok, but it changes ball fields, when it is close to a real hunting scenario. Thedog pointing on its own, you shooting, and then the real bird retrieve, that's where it can stay tight, or fall apart......the same with the whoa stuff.....its prolly one of the most abused words in dog language, I would rather here some one cuss, instead of saying whoa. And its not a safety issue, because if they can hear the word "WHOA", they can hear the word"HERE", but if the person would worry about teaching the dog to be steady, instead of intimidating it to stand still, having it standing on a 2X6, or barrel, is the dog ever gonna point on that stuff? If it is, its prolly pointing a rabbit. But people use the word to stop the dog from bumping the bird, so they are pointing, and not the dog. Bill West used to say, " a 4 inch piece of duct tape, is the best dog training tool around".....it covers that mouth pretty well.People dont care about the dog and bird work, they want a bragging tool. I hear people say "man, my dog will stop on a dime" whoa broke to beat the band" I ask....will he point? Usually......ummmmm,.....no, or not very well. So how was that time wasted, benefited the dogs work?[/align][/align]Here is one to put back in the back of your head when working a dog.[/align]"What am I doing to day in this work out, that will benefit me on the next one......with what I do today, will it help me and my dog work together as a team, will it help my dog learn what I would like in his work, if he isn't understanding this workout, what should I change, my timing, moving forward to fast, why or what am I doing, that's not being understood by the dog?"[/align][/align]Older dogs can be taught, sometimes easier, an sometimes harder.......every dog is different, ya dont know, until you startyour program, and seehow it works. Then figure out what is needed. Thanks Jonesy[/align]

RE: Thoughts on training
 

This is the kind of benefitial post that will help more people than asking why is my dog doing this or that. It makes you think. Hopefully, people reading will think and evaluate what their program is doing or trying to do instead of just following along.

Jonesy, yes I've thought alot on this. From what I've read, you are doing what I've been trying to explain, getting the dog to do it and not dancing around. Your methodsgets to the heart of it,



You are teaching the dog to fetch and not some dance routine. You repeat your method to steady the dog. Maybe this will help explain.

Hereisan example of a badroutine for fetching.Joeis driving a car with the dog running along side.Joe tosses a fire cracker out the window and yell, 'fetch'. Some howJoe makes the dog pick up the fire cracker as it explodes in its mouth.Joe does this over and over hoping that when in the field, the dog will learn to fetch any type of bird.

It won't work because the car and the fire cracker doesn't resemble actual hunting conditions. ButJoeis hoping the dog makes a mental leap with picking up fire cracker with picking up the bird. Itsflawed because the original routine is flawed.

But you are teaching fetch. You don't have a routine but are repeating fetch. That is, yourmethod doesn't depend upon how close to 'fetch' can I come, it's actual fetching.

I've also thought on 'woah' command. In the field, when do you actually use 'woah'? When the dog breaks. Other than that, 'stay' could be easily substituted for 'woah'. If the dog can handle both commands, why not use both? 'Stay' and 'heel' can be taught anywhere as it doesn't matter where you use it. But 'woah' is used only when breaking point. So, wouldn't it be best to teach 'woah' only with pointing?

RE: Thoughts on training
 

I dont say fetch at any point....its all done asa "natural environment"....retrieve, bird comes up as pup....dog gets to run it down an retrieve.......
Again, dogs read the eyes, voice and touch from us......so when it picks up the bird to retrieve.....ya gotta feed the action....woohoo atta boy, man what a dog, woo hoo......our voice is saying to the dog, or in the dogs mind......."man, dad really likes when I do this"
Earlier I had mentioned ff being a crutch, as house rule, it usually is.......but there are some dogs that dont want to fetch, so I will rephrase what I said, as a half crutch.

Dogs shouldt have to be told what to do after teh flush, or prior the point.....if you do the job fully, to the best or your and the dogs abilities......it should respect the bird...and you, whoa doesnt teach the dog to respect the bird, it is only a word that controls the dog...and desire most of the time.....and what you will see is a dog ALOTTA times...slowly slip through, because they either melt on the voice, or get intimidated to do the stop, there is no need in hollering at the dog if it moves after the flush. You do the job correctly, and you wont. Here is an old whoa topic write up that I saved......it says roughly what happens in teh dogs mind as its being taught. It is very good read. Thanks Jonesy


Honestly , I am ashamed of how I trained dogs a few years ago. I had
broke dogs but they didn't look good doing it, I wasn't training them
happy. I talked with my mentor about how I could get more out of my
dogs and make them look like a million bucks. This leads me to
answering your next question that I quoted from your last post.

I will try to explain it the way I was explained to from my mentor.
It can be long but bear with me and keep an open mind.

I was asked if I was educated and for how long. I answered 16 years
of education. He told me that I should be experienced with all that
education in writing the letter "A", since I probably started
learning how to do this in preschool.

I was handed a piece of paper and a pen and told me to right down the
letter "A" I did as instructed. A blank piece of paper had the
letter "A" written on it.

"A"

He then asked me again ,....Jim, Could you please write down the
letter "A" for me. I did as instructed, the piece of paper now looked
like this .

"A A"

With a little sterner voice he told me JIM, could you please write
the letter "A" for me. My paper looked like this.

"A A a"

I now sensed frustration in his voice, he told me, "I am asking you
once again....Could you please write down the letter "A" on the piece
of paper I gave you. It now looked like this..

"A A a a"

He sat there for a minute and paused... I got a little nervous, he
went back to a calm voice and asked me if I could write down the
letter "A" for him on the piece of paper, it now looked like this...

"A A a a A"

Now with a disturbed look on his face and his demeanor was totally
diferent, almost in a defensive mode, now his voice was raised , JIM
COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE DOWN an "A"! on the piece of paper I gave you,
so I did it looked like this..

"A A a a A an a"

He looked at my piece of paper very angry at this point and asked me,
Could you please write down on the piece of paper the letter "A". Now
it looked like this...

"A A a a A an a A"

He asked me to show him the piece of paper. he said ok lets look at
this and talk about what you wrote......

I asked you to write down the letter "A" and you did that correctly.
Then I asked you to write down the letter "A " again, and you did
that correctly, now on the third one you wrote down a lower case "a",
why did you do that? he asked. I stated that I understood him the
first two times and I thought I did that correctly, then I was trying
to figure out the third time what he was really wanting me to do? So
I made the lower case "a" This went on and on through all the letters
I wrote down on the piece of paper. He asked me why I was so
inconsistant in what he was asing me to do. I told him his demeanor
changed and I actually got tired of doing it and was ready to quit
his little game. I was confused and didn't really understand what he
was asking me to do.

That is when the light bulb turned on for me. ", "Dogs are alot like
people!"

If I asked the dog to do what I was asking of him and he did it, that
is what I wanted him to do, he then did it the second time correctly
when asked. Then why would you ask him to do it a third time if he
did it once or twice correctly? This is where experience and reading
the dog correctly comes in handy.....knowing when to stop and keeping
them happy and loose.

I should have stopped there and put him up happy. If I kept going
trying to get it perfect, I may only confuse the dog and not progress
as if I stopped there and put him up when he did what I was asking of
him. Remember...there is always tomorrow. If you are consistant in
training and don't over do the training you will gain more in the
long run.

Does this make sense to you?

The reason I told you to whoa the dog a long ways away after getting
him loose is, if the dog is a long ways away,and you have the
training down, (stimulatation and verbal) the dog is too far away to
come back to your side. If he tries, you have a solid foundatation
laid to correct him.

Now this is a copy from nother post ways back with Jim Guthrie,

Thanks, Jonesy

RE: Thoughts on training
 

eodlt all you are doing is teaching that dog that it is ok to creep until he is told to whoa, not good. Once he locks on point he should not be moving foward until told to do so and also by the way an e-collar to enforce the whao command around the belly is a little bit harsh. Have you ever tried it on yourself, if not you should and you will understand why you don't put it there unless you have to. try flanking the dog with a checkcord, if he is still doing it use a smaller(thinner)rope. I don't sell my training tricks I only charge if I do the work. So its not a price I am looking for just tricks that is not for the general public to know.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

You've misread all my posts. I dont strap an ecollar around the belly... And yes I havetested the ecollars on myself. I dont allow my dogs to creep once they are on point, if they are getting birdy, I tell them to be careful so that they dont bust the birds too early. I dont allow them to break on point from wing to shot or to fall. That means from the time the birds take off, the time they are shot, and the time it takes for them to fall. Then dogs are released.

As for selling tips, this is a forum board... Its a gathering for people to ask questions and get tips and help. Not an ad page for dog trainers...

The title of the thread is thoughts on training. Why does he have to contact you privately for "help"? Its a discussion board, post your thoughts on training, since you have many, on this board.

RE: Thoughts on training
 

Jonesy, that is a very good example. I had the same thing happen to me as my mentor was teaching me the ropes to dog training. Look forward to hopefully meeting you in the future.