tailcrackin

Mite, and others, hopefully this might help, [/align]Everything we do with dogs should be a routine in one way or another, whether or not its just loading an unloading, bird work, obedience work, travel, chain gangs, retrieving, whatever....it should all try and stay in a form of routine....dogs are creature of habit, weteachthem our routine, what and how we want things, with our patience and time, they comply. They learn to understand what an how we want, by our teaching......if they don't do this....this happens, if they do this....nothing happens.....most prefer nothing to happen. You put a dog in an environment to be successful, and it will....immediately, or with some time...but it will, they want to succeed.[/align][/align]Methods of training.......biggest method, is patience, confidence, read the dog, and patience. Styles of training, that can be a whole nother ball field, With the style I use, it works very well for me and my timing, it is very simple, and black and white.Mydogs dont get confused, and theowners dont get confused.It works with all breeds.They can betough as nails, and softer than soft.You don't need a bunch of extra bells and whistles to work a dog, I will not argue about training, and will not argue aboutthe styles. But you, and others have known me long enough, I will supply the info needed to try and get a start with the fix, its hard helping on the internet, because you never get the whole story, so we gotta sorta weed through the bad, to get to the good. I will usually offer my #, the ones that are serious, will call.[/align][/align]The FF issues, if I have a pup, or young dog here that enjoys the natural retrieve, I will make it happen....through out the training time that the dog is here. The biggest thing that I see and feel. Is the average, will get a decent retrieve, and not let the dog carry the item, and be allowed to show it off. They get in a big hurry to get it from the dog, and throw it again. That is when the boogers start....... or they do way to many, at each session. Now,some dogs are ok to that, but as a house rule, most aren't, people don't think that, so dog gets a chance to fail......instead of being done.....with the retrieves.[/align]When I start a dog, I do no limb tossing, or ball stuff, I am worried about it wanting to retrieve the bird. I will do wings some but not really that much, I will start the work on birds, and building the desire...plus start the handle, and the final being the retrieve. In my program, on what an how I do....for me this works very well.[/align]With your dog, you aren't worried about the retrieve, so why risk boogering the dog up it totally?That's is the same deal as training, as soon as the dog shows you its understanding the retrieve part, people automatically start something else.........before the dog totally proves to you that "it has got it." So the corners get cut in the FF drill also, come off table to quick, or start ecollar to fast, alot of stuff plain an simple gets boogered up, because of hurrying, and cutting corners...plus not allowing to be a pup for a while. I can have a retriever that is between 3-5 mo. retrieving to hand, and starting to stand in the heel position, without a check cord on........because I do things small now, that will help big later.[/align][/align]The way that you have done your program, sounds ok, but it changes ball fields, when it is close to a real hunting scenario. Thedog pointing on its own, you shooting, and then the real bird retrieve, that's where it can stay tight, or fall apart......the same with the whoa stuff.....its prolly one of the most abused words in dog language, I would rather here some one cuss, instead of saying whoa. And its not a safety issue, because if they can hear the word "WHOA", they can hear the word"HERE", but if the person would worry about teaching the dog to be steady, instead of intimidating it to stand still, having it standing on a 2X6, or barrel, is the dog ever gonna point on that stuff? If it is, its prolly pointing a rabbit. But people use the word to stop the dog from bumping the bird, so they are pointing, and not the dog. Bill West used to say, " a 4 inch piece of duct tape, is the best dog training tool around".....it covers that mouth pretty well.People dont care about the dog and bird work, they want a bragging tool. I hear people say "man, my dog will stop on a dime" whoa broke to beat the band" I ask....will he point? Usually......ummmmm,.....no, or not very well. So how was that time wasted, benefited the dogs work?[/align][/align]Here is one to put back in the back of your head when working a dog.[/align]"What am I doing to day in this work out, that will benefit me on the next one......with what I do today, will it help me and my dog work together as a team, will it help my dog learn what I would like in his work, if he isn't understanding this workout, what should I change, my timing, moving forward to fast, why or what am I doing, that's not being understood by the dog?"[/align][/align]Older dogs can be taught, sometimes easier, an sometimes harder.......every dog is different, ya dont know, until you startyour program, and seehow it works. Then figure out what is needed. Thanks Jonesy[/align]

Mite

This is the kind of benefitial post that will help more people than asking why is my dog doing this or that. It makes you think. Hopefully, people reading will think and evaluate what their program is doing or trying to do instead of just following along.

Jonesy, yes I've thought alot on this. From what I've read, you are doing what I've been trying to explain, getting the dog to do it and not dancing around. Your methodsgets to the heart of it,



You are teaching the dog to fetch and not some dance routine. You repeat your method to steady the dog. Maybe this will help explain.

Hereisan example of a badroutine for fetching.Joeis driving a car with the dog running along side.Joe tosses a fire cracker out the window and yell, 'fetch'. Some howJoe makes the dog pick up the fire cracker as it explodes in its mouth.Joe does this over and over hoping that when in the field, the dog will learn to fetch any type of bird.

It won't work because the car and the fire cracker doesn't resemble actual hunting conditions. ButJoeis hoping the dog makes a mental leap with picking up fire cracker with picking up the bird. Itsflawed because the original routine is flawed.

But you are teaching fetch. You don't have a routine but are repeating fetch. That is, yourmethod doesn't depend upon how close to 'fetch' can I come, it's actual fetching.

I've also thought on 'woah' command. In the field, when do you actually use 'woah'? When the dog breaks. Other than that, 'stay' could be easily substituted for 'woah'. If the dog can handle both commands, why not use both? 'Stay' and 'heel' can be taught anywhere as it doesn't matter where you use it. But 'woah' is used only when breaking point. So, wouldn't it be best to teach 'woah' only with pointing?

tailcrackin

I dont say fetch at any point....its all done asa "natural environment"....retrieve, bird comes up as pup....dog gets to run it down an retrieve.......
Again, dogs read the eyes, voice and touch from us......so when it picks up the bird to retrieve.....ya gotta feed the action....woohoo atta boy, man what a dog, woo hoo......our voice is saying to the dog, or in the dogs mind......."man, dad really likes when I do this"
Earlier I had mentioned ff being a crutch, as house rule, it usually is.......but there are some dogs that dont want to fetch, so I will rephrase what I said, as a half crutch.

Dogs shouldt have to be told what to do after teh flush, or prior the point.....if you do the job fully, to the best or your and the dogs abilities......it should respect the bird...and you, whoa doesnt teach the dog to respect the bird, it is only a word that controls the dog...and desire most of the time.....and what you will see is a dog ALOTTA times...slowly slip through, because they either melt on the voice, or get intimidated to do the stop, there is no need in hollering at the dog if it moves after the flush. You do the job correctly, and you wont. Here is an old whoa topic write up that I saved......it says roughly what happens in teh dogs mind as its being taught. It is very good read. Thanks Jonesy


Honestly , I am ashamed of how I trained dogs a few years ago. I had
broke dogs but they didn't look good doing it, I wasn't training them
happy. I talked with my mentor about how I could get more out of my
dogs and make them look like a million bucks. This leads me to
answering your next question that I quoted from your last post.

I will try to explain it the way I was explained to from my mentor.
It can be long but bear with me and keep an open mind.

I was asked if I was educated and for how long. I answered 16 years
of education. He told me that I should be experienced with all that
education in writing the letter "A", since I probably started
learning how to do this in preschool.

I was handed a piece of paper and a pen and told me to right down the
letter "A" I did as instructed. A blank piece of paper had the
letter "A" written on it.

"A"

He then asked me again ,....Jim, Could you please write down the
letter "A" for me. I did as instructed, the piece of paper now looked
like this .

"A A"

With a little sterner voice he told me JIM, could you please write
the letter "A" for me. My paper looked like this.

"A A a"

I now sensed frustration in his voice, he told me, "I am asking you
once again....Could you please write down the letter "A" on the piece
of paper I gave you. It now looked like this..

"A A a a"

He sat there for a minute and paused... I got a little nervous, he
went back to a calm voice and asked me if I could write down the
letter "A" for him on the piece of paper, it now looked like this...

"A A a a A"

Now with a disturbed look on his face and his demeanor was totally
diferent, almost in a defensive mode, now his voice was raised , JIM
COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE DOWN an "A"! on the piece of paper I gave you,
so I did it looked like this..

"A A a a A an a"

He looked at my piece of paper very angry at this point and asked me,
Could you please write down on the piece of paper the letter "A". Now
it looked like this...

"A A a a A an a A"

He asked me to show him the piece of paper. he said ok lets look at
this and talk about what you wrote......

I asked you to write down the letter "A" and you did that correctly.
Then I asked you to write down the letter "A " again, and you did
that correctly, now on the third one you wrote down a lower case "a",
why did you do that? he asked. I stated that I understood him the
first two times and I thought I did that correctly, then I was trying
to figure out the third time what he was really wanting me to do? So
I made the lower case "a" This went on and on through all the letters
I wrote down on the piece of paper. He asked me why I was so
inconsistant in what he was asing me to do. I told him his demeanor
changed and I actually got tired of doing it and was ready to quit
his little game. I was confused and didn't really understand what he
was asking me to do.

That is when the light bulb turned on for me. ", "Dogs are alot like
people!"

If I asked the dog to do what I was asking of him and he did it, that
is what I wanted him to do, he then did it the second time correctly
when asked. Then why would you ask him to do it a third time if he
did it once or twice correctly? This is where experience and reading
the dog correctly comes in handy.....knowing when to stop and keeping
them happy and loose.

I should have stopped there and put him up happy. If I kept going
trying to get it perfect, I may only confuse the dog and not progress
as if I stopped there and put him up when he did what I was asking of
him. Remember...there is always tomorrow. If you are consistant in
training and don't over do the training you will gain more in the
long run.

Does this make sense to you?

The reason I told you to whoa the dog a long ways away after getting
him loose is, if the dog is a long ways away,and you have the
training down, (stimulatation and verbal) the dog is too far away to
come back to your side. If he tries, you have a solid foundatation
laid to correct him.

Now this is a copy from nother post ways back with Jim Guthrie,

Thanks, Jonesy

BKL Gundogs

eodlt all you are doing is teaching that dog that it is ok to creep until he is told to whoa, not good. Once he locks on point he should not be moving foward until told to do so and also by the way an e-collar to enforce the whao command around the belly is a little bit harsh. Have you ever tried it on yourself, if not you should and you will understand why you don't put it there unless you have to. try flanking the dog with a checkcord, if he is still doing it use a smaller(thinner)rope. I don't sell my training tricks I only charge if I do the work. So its not a price I am looking for just tricks that is not for the general public to know.

EODLT

You've misread all my posts. I dont strap an ecollar around the belly... And yes I havetested the ecollars on myself. I dont allow my dogs to creep once they are on point, if they are getting birdy, I tell them to be careful so that they dont bust the birds too early. I dont allow them to break on point from wing to shot or to fall. That means from the time the birds take off, the time they are shot, and the time it takes for them to fall. Then dogs are released.

As for selling tips, this is a forum board... Its a gathering for people to ask questions and get tips and help. Not an ad page for dog trainers...

The title of the thread is thoughts on training. Why does he have to contact you privately for "help"? Its a discussion board, post your thoughts on training, since you have many, on this board.

BKL Gundogs

Jonesy, that is a very good example. I had the same thing happen to me as my mentor was teaching me the ropes to dog training. Look forward to hopefully meeting you in the future.