Training Questions
 

Ok I'm new to the site, newto training a dogbut not new to hunting. I have a 7 month old yellow lab that I am trying to train for a familiy/duck hunting dog. Ok well here are the questions / problems.

-He will sit and stay for me for about 30 seconds in the house, but not outside.
-When I throw the rubber dummy in the back yard, instead of him bringing it back to me helays down and chews on it once he gets it.
-I try and make him sit and stay before I throw the dummy, but as soon as I throw it he tries to run after it (but I have a hand around his collar).
-Any good tips on gun / loud noise shyness?

Any help with any of these issues would be greatly appreciated!!!!

RE: Training Questions
 

Slowdown! Stop! Backup!

You are rushing your dog way too fast!

Rubber dummies are for advanced levels of training, to refine the skills hes already learned...

Put the dummies away for a few months.

Start with your basic obedience, which is your STAY, Sit, Here, heel, etc..

After and only after he has mastered his basic commands, do you start formal retreival training. Just because hes a lab doesnt mean he automatically knows how to retrieve.

You have to keep working on stay. Your fighting instints of the dog to want to chase something, to follow the master, and to not be left behind.
Keep working that pup until he will stay for a LONG time inside.. Im talking several minutes, while you go to another room, etc...

Then take him outside, where there are distractions, new things to smell and see. This may take weeks...

He should have a solid recall before you start retrieveing... Recall is "come" or "here".

once he has absolutely mastered the basics... which could be months, he may be over a year old before you bring out the dummies. Then you can start retrieveing.

Start with DROP.

Then HOLD, the most important, which keeps him from chewing on the dummy or the bird. Try to google training techniques for DROP and HOLD.
IF you cant do It... DONT RUIN YOUR DOG TRYING TO DO "FORCE FETCH" TAKE HIM FOR PROFESSIONAL TRAINING FOR THIS PHASE IF YOU HAVE TO!!!!!
After you have DROP and HOLD, you teach FETCH. Which is releasing the dog to go and get the bird, and coming to you and droping it in your hand.
This is where you get to finally use the dummies. If the dog has a poor recall or doesnt hold well, back up and slow down and keep working on these weaknesses... For heavensake do not rush it!

Good luck.

RE: Training Questions
 

Thank you very much for your reply / reality check. I truely do appreciate it!!!! Is there any way you could give me good tips on "Start with your basic obedience, which is your STAY, Sit, Here, heel, etc.." How do I get him to sit and stay longer? Also how do I get him to sit and stay when I walk behind him where he cant see me?

I want to do him right and honestly dont want to rush things. I just thought I might have started his training to late I guess and was assuming I could play catch up.

EODLT- Is there anyway I could PM you if I have any more questions?

Thanks

RE: Training Questions
 

Certainly... Just click the PM or email me anytime, [email protected]

Its not uncommon for beginners to rush right into bumber training because thats what they see on book covers, t.v. shows, and such as that... You have to build up the dog much like a house... I wouldnt build my roof before my foundation! You have to start simple and keep it slow and repetative.

Basic obedience is the foundation of the dogs ability to be trained so to speak... without it, you couldnt possibly teach him to retreive correctly.
I use positive reinforcement, which is a treat or praise for a job well done. Keep your sessions short and simple, to the point. Take 5 minutes and some little pieces of cheese or meat or a dog treat, walk the dog to a familiar spot in the house, somewhere he is comfortable. Have him "sit", take the treat and hold it above his nose and move it backwards towards his tail in a smooth manner, he should sit while he follows the treat with his head. Say "sit" and reward. then hold a flat hand, palm out and say firmly "STay" keep your hand outstretched to keep his attention. If he moves, stop and take him immediately to the "exact" same spot he was sitting, repeat the "stay" command until you can take several steps back... Say, "Here" and bring your hand down to your left side and have him "sit" infront of you before you reward him. Tell him what a good dog he is. Take a break. Maybe a hour or so later try it again for 5 more minutes and see if he remembers what to do to please you...
After he is pretty consistent inside, get a check cord and a yard ring, (screws into dirt with a ring to feed the Check cord through, ancors the dog into sitting position) then have him sit, and stay, walk back and keep the cc slack free... he cant move. Then drop the cc and commmand here. Praise for a good dog that comes immediatley and sits. REPEAT DAILY or atleast 4 or 5 times a week for 5 or 10 minutes at a time... Dogs are like young children in the training stage, with ADD. You have to keep the sessions short or you lose his focus and hes learning nothing but how boring this is....

Feel free to ask me any questions wiht PM or email.

WRONG! You can teach a dog anything at any age... its never too late, but It can be too soon. Thats your problem, too much too fast.

Good luck.

RE: Training Questions
 

The advice given is all good. All I'd like to ad is to remember that dogs are place sensitive when it comes to training. What I mean by that is a dog if trained to "come" in the yard, and is 100% compliant in the yard will often break down, and not "come" (or follow any other command) in another location. A way to remedy this is to train in several different locations. One day at home, the next in the park, after that in a friends yard, etc. This keeps the focus on the command. A dog is never too young for the changes in location, and no command in too unimportant to not be obeyed.

Also, I've found several good books on training spaniels, and pointers. I'm sure there are probably twice as many on retrievers. One writer I'm fond of is James Spencer, who trains retrievers too. His other books were easy to follow, and understand. I'd recommend a training book.

Good luck

RE: Training Questions
 

Get on a good - modern - sequential training program.
It sounds like you are just winging it on your own.
A good one for the newbie trainer is the "10 Minute Retriever" by John and Amy Dahl.


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RE: Training Questions
 

I thought about getting that book, but reading the reviews it looks like a lot of force fetching and useing a shock collar. Or are there other techniqeus (sp?) in the book? Not sure I want to use pain to train my dog, because I assume other haveNOT used pain in their training and have welled trained dogs........

RE: Training Questions
 

I just wanted to add, that books are great for certain people... Sometimes different people can misinterpret thoughts and ideas represented in a book.

Get yourself a good training book for sure, but If you get stuck on a section or a technique, for the sake of the dog... seek professional help!!!
A respected trainer can really help you see something from a different angle... Making it less frustrating, and you can move along in training smoothly. Never beat or cuss the dog if he isnt doing everything just like it says in the book... Thats how dogs are ruined, and become "gun shy"and act "afraid" of the handler, obeying out of fear and not "working" for the handler.

Best of luck,
EODLT

RE: Training Questions
 

When properly adminisered, FF and the ecollar do not inflict pain.


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RE: Training Questions
 

This is right, but not many greenhorns know the right ways to PROPERLY administer FF... The purpose of FF is to cause DISCOMFORT, Not pain. The dog learns that the Discomfort goes away when he does the right thing. I agree with DOC E, but doing FF right takes practice and skill. Not a quick paragraph in a book explaining the process....

RE: Training Questions
 

Ok forget the dummies... Thats fine, I did that.... But here is another question...... My dog wont even play fetch with me and bring back a ball, stickor rope for me to throw it again. Like I said before, he would rather lay down and chew on it instead of me throwing it again..... Is my dog doomed to ever retreive? I'm a little worried since he wont even play fetch!!!!!!

RE: Training Questions
 

Okey dokey,
Thats called prey-possessive, when he doesnt want to come to you immediately or wants to keep the item and chew on it... this is normal for young dogs, but you want to correct this as soon as possible.

Try throwing a ball and having a food treat in your other hand, when he gets the ball, call his attention toward the threat in your hand, your making a "trade" of his toy for another toy or food... See if this keeps his focus on the "game", not the toy. Meaning his treat for a good retrieve becomes another toss and another good retreive. Hope this helps.


EDIT: I wanted to add that you should really focus more on the OB, (obedience training) right now, and not on retrieveing so much. That will come with time. You need to have a solid OB to work from.

RE: Training Questions
 

LOL thanks for the reply.... I think I need a bigger treat then, because he much rather have the ball than the treat. I want the fetch thing down so he has other exercise other than walking. I am working hard on the OB how you suggested to do it. He was doing really good with the sit and stay, then I had to go back to work (24 hour shift). I came home this morning and tried the sit / stay and its like he forgot every thing he did good on the day before.

I really never have seen a dog that doesnt know how to fetch the ball and then bring it back, its odd for me. But I will try to lure him back with a raw hide or something and see if that works.....

But yes I am focusing on OB, just want to give him some more exercise that would be fun for him / me.....

Again thanks for the advice!!!!!

RE: Training Questions
 

Ok, change it up then. Keep the ball as a treat and throw another toy for him. Then make trades off of the ball...

I understand you want to try and find new ways to exercise him, thats great, really it is. BUT.... Fetch is something that you are going to have to teach him later on down the road, and you dont want him to develop bad habits such as hard mouth, or something like that before you have taught him the pre-requisites... have you introduced him to water? Walking a dog is great exercise, letting them run around freely and burn some energy is good for their attitudes. Get him in some water, let him swim around you while you stand waist deep. Let him be a puppy. Retrieveing will have its time and place believe me! Right now you want to keep it fun and intresting.

About the sit/ stay, he remembers, he just doesnt know that he has to do it everytime, he doesnt know thathe "works" for you, the boss. Right now he is going to do it for a treat, and not because he is trained to do it... thats where the repetition comes into play, you have to show him that your the "boss".

RE: Training Questions
 

Not really been in water yet, dont really have anywhere to take him...... Well that I know of. I'm new to my area. I had him down at the river the other day and I let him go out about 6 feet with a lead on but their was a lot of current and huge rocks so I didnt want to take him off lead. The only lake I know of was really low this past summer and full of weeds and stuff near the shore.... If I do find a place, how cold is to cold to let a lab in the water? I know, silly question but I just want to be safe with him...

I see what your saying about bad habbits with fetch. If I do get him to fetch, how hard is it going to be for me to eventually make him wait for a command before he takes off to get the ball / dummy / bird?

RE: Training Questions
 

Dont take a young dog in water any colder than 55-60 ish. Anywhere in the 70's or high 60's is ok. The warmer the easier, because then you can get in comfortably too...

Not hard. If he has good OB, (stay). When you are going through the "Fetch" training process, there isa point after you have taught "hold" that the "Fetch" command changes the command to just "hold" the bird, to "reaching" for it. This would be where you start to toss the dummies again, toss a bumper, have him steady by your side, and call out "FETCH!" Then the dog should release and go to the bumper and come straight back, where you would say, "Drop!" In which said dog, drops the bird IN YOUR HAND. NOt on the ground...

RE: Training Questions
 

Wow that was a lot of input...... Have you written a book, if so I'll buy it..... Ok I'm just gonna work on sit and stay in different placesfor the next couple of weeks or months.... Is down stay a good thing to teach to? Should I get sit/stay down first beforeI attempt down/stay?

I was just out in the back yard and he did come back for another toy.... He dropped the one he disliked out of the 2 in front of me about 2 feet, but when I threw the one he liked he brought it back, circled me a couple times then laid down beside me. But its a start and a lot better than what was happening (not coming back).....

When the wife gets home with my camera thats in her truck,I will post a pic of the dog u r so nicley helping me with.......

One more question...... If I dont get him into water until next spring is that gonna screw him up, because the water is getting cold around here.....

RE: Training Questions
 

No, no books. But about 40 years of experience with dogs. I've had lots of dogs, and trained a bunch over the years. Mostly Labs...

I teach "sit", "down" (which is laying down), "stay", "Heel", "Here", and "NO" During OB. A down/stay combo really isnt necessary. Just tell him "Down" and if you wanthim to stay, "Stay". SO that its 2 separate commands. Really wordy and complicated commands are a no no. Dogs are simple minded anddo best with short, firm commands.

That is good, that is progress in the right direction. Keep working on it. I assume you are a fireman... I'm sure you didnt learn all that you know today, in just one session. It takes time and repetition.

No, it wont screw him up at all. I always tell people, "Its never too late to teach a dog anything, but it can be too soon." The most important thing about intro to water is that you (the handler) are in the water with the dog. Let him know that he isnt going to sink, let him swim around your waist. If he starts to panic and huff and try to claw onto you, just put your hand under his belly and support his as you gently push him away. Make him use his back legs, or get him a floatation vest until he is comfortable swimming.

RE: Training Questions
 

As promised here is his goofey self..... His name is Blaze....

RE: Training Questions
 

Fine looking animal!

I'm confident in you both.
Hope he gives you many good memories.
Happy Thanksgiving To all.

Here's a picture of my oldest current lab, Scout. 6 yr old. He's my best trained dog that I have right now. I still work him several times a week! It never ends...

RE: Training Questions
 

OK well I thought are sit / come's were coming along nicley until this morning!!!!![:@] I let Blaze out to relieve himself this morning. Well he did his thing and decided he wanted to chew on a stick that had fallen into the yard. Now its cold out and I want to go in. So I call him with a "come" and as soon as I said that he takes off bucking like a bull and running back and forth in the yard. Pretty much he was like I dont have to listen to you I want you to come chase me......

Now, I know I did something bad. I finally got him to come to me after about 5 minutes of him acting a fool in the back yard. I tapped his rear end, yelled (like that did any good), and tossed him in his kennel.

How do I punish a not "coming" after he has eventually come's to you? I feel like I punished his come and not his not listning. I cant really punish him when he is running away from me. No I did not chase him......... PLEASE HELP!!! I'm a little upset right now, because he was doing so well with sit/stay/come......

RE: Training Questions
 

Are you planning to use an ecollar?


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RE: Training Questions
 

Trying to avoid it because I am not familiar with them and dont want to use it in a wrong way......

RE: Training Questions
 

Ok this is somewhat common. Labs can be bullheaded and love to see if you will chase them. IMPORTANT: Never chase! not saying you did, but this is just something not to do.

You didnt mess up terribly, but you never want to associate "come" with anything but praise... In scold mode, use something else, like "look what you did" or "whats the matter with you?" Only use "come" with a reward. The dog should want to come to you, if he gets yelled at or scolded and you have said "come"... He is going to remember that it means he is going to be punished. You follow?

E-collars are great tools. But there is no faster way to ruin a dog. You have to study up on how to use them succesfully. Dont get buttonitis. They are for corrections when the dog "KNOWS" the command and "CHOOSES" not to obey... You shouldnt "nick" a dog that doesnt know the command yet, for not obeying. If blaze "KNOWS" that "come" means to get his arse to your feet immediately, and decides hes not going to...then you wear his azz out. (nick him until hedecides to cometo you) Then give him lots of praise.

Hope this helps get you through, training is very frustrating one day, and very rewarding the next. Your doing a good job, just keep to it.

Good luck.

RE: Training Questions
 

Personally, I say wait a bit before using the collar. Too much pressure for seven months. There will be a time when the pup isn't going to listen and be stubborn and it looks like yours is starting. Slow down a bit. Alot of professional trainers won't start training until a year old. Its all well and fine to condition or prep a dog for training but real training at that age shouldn't involve serious correction. So, get frustrated.

If you start using an ecollar, remember the dog has to be conditioned to it. It has to know why it's being corrected and use it sparingly. As an example, my collar has a beeper and a stimulus range of 1-10. I've only needed to use a moderate rangeabout twice all season. Once when she went hunting for another group of hunters and wouldn't return and another because she was entering a restricted area and the beeper wouldnt turn her. Note, command first then beeper (no stimulus) then low setting (usually 2-3 times) then step up the stimulus. Off-season, the prongs get unscrewed so no stimulus.

RE: Training Questions
 

7 months is plenty old to make the transition from leash training to ecollar.

If the dog has learned the commands and refuses to obey, he gets corrected. Doesnt mean that every correction has to be a shock, or a "nick". But he should be reminded who's the boss, I put collars on dogs after 12 weeks or so. 21 weeks is plenty old enough. I dont use a beeper function, I give the dog ample time to correct himself before he gets a verbal warning and then he gets ironed out with ecollar. Low stim for my labs doesnt even get a reaction, so they go right to medium, before med-high, then High.

RE: Training Questions
 

This is what I do - no e-collar is needed.

Once you have calledthe dogand he has disobeyed - I do not say another word but go get that dog in a very calm manner. I have walked dogs down over a 1/4 to 1/2 mile saying nothing. When I finally do get my hands on that dog - I snap on my check cord - I use a 50 footer - and it is pure HECK all the way back to the spotI first called the dog. I then go through repetitive sessions allowing the dog to go out and pull back quickly on that check cord using my command I have chosen to call the dog back to me.

No dog is ever given a "good dog" command until I have my hands on it - When the dog responds and comes back it is rewarded with much praise and I do use small dog milk bone treats.

Now these sessions I call my ugly dog training sessions and I want to be alone. I do rough up the dog quite a bit - just enouhg - letting the dog know I am boss! I do not kick or punch but do grab the collar fiercely. The dog is scolded all teh way back to the very 1st spot I had called it from. Then from there we sart over. E-collars are great tools but the dog needs a good understanding of any ole command before it is used.


I do start calling puppies to me while I put a fist in the aircalling as I wave it. As the dog comes toward me- my hand is lowered and fist opend as in my palm it contains a treat. You would be surpirsed how quickly the dog responds to that. You may want to try that.

later in life I actulaly hold up my water bottle and call the dog in the same way.

with enogh sessions witht he dog coming to you take your hand and bring it up over the dogs head and you can add the word 'sit'

dog is sitting take your hand and bring it to the ground saying down.....

each time the pup reacts corrrectly it is praised and given the treat.

But there are time my H.E. double L sessions are needed.

JW

Update
 

Just a update on how the training is coming along....

Well, his sits and stays are getting much better!!!His coming when called is slacking really bad... I just cant figure out something that works for this.... Another thing is, when he gets distracted by other dogs or cats; he doesnt listen to me one bit!!!

I took him to a puppy obedience class when I first got him and the trainer said he would go thru a "adolecent" (spelling?) stage... Well if this is true, I believe he has started it because hehas beeen a really big S***T here latley!!!

After a good training session, I throw a bumber out about 10 feet and lethim get it..... I say get it because he wont come back unless I pull him back with the cord that is attached to him...... This is starting to worry me.... How can I get him to enjoy me throwing things and him coming back so I will do it again???

I will be a little upset if this dog wont retrieve for me!!! I have spent a lot of time with him thus far and I hope its not for nothing and I have to start with a new dog so I can go duck hunting next season!!!



Happy Holiday Everyone!!!

RE: Training Questions
 

Don't sweat it. Seven months is still real young. Yes, at around that age young dogs will rebel. If you are really concerned about his training at that age, my suggestion is to back off abit. Sounds like you are putting way too much pressure for a pup.

Go pick up a good training program and study it. Your pup is nearing real training age. I know some trainers won't accept a pup under a year old.

You have 4-5 months to study, so use the time wisely. Read through your training program before you start. BTW, I believe personally, the e-collar can be a life saver for your dog. It should be used to reinforce commands the dog already knows and used very sparely in only those situations where the dog absolutely needs to listen. I haven't used the collar since last month and that was the beeper (no shock). My dog's collar conditioned so she knows unless she listens, something else is going to happen. I may beep her an average of once every hunting trip maybe one low shock a season, no more. Off season, transmitter stays home. I started conditioning my dog at nine months of age and that was early only because I put on a bark collar at around 7-8 months.

RE: Training Questions
 

Too much pressure,you are in a rush for duck season. Just relax and take it one day at a time. Go get an e-collar, training dvd's, and a check cord.

Take that dog out, on the Check cord (cc), let him wander a little bit and say "here", squat down and open your arms to look more "friendly". Tug on the CC the whole way if you need to, when he gets to you, praise the crap out of him. The dog "wants" to be with you is the whole point of recall. Once he is pretty good with the CC, put on the e-collar (NOTE: Only after he is collar conditioned) and take the cc off, let him wander around and give the recall command, if no response... Give a "nick" or small stimulus. Dog should realize that he has no choice. The only way to turn off collar is to obey.

When that e-collar is strapped on, you will have a totally different animal.

I only have to reach for the transmitter with most of my dogs and they know whats coming next and will usually shape right up.

RE: Training Questions
 

What do you mean by "collar conditioned"?

RE: Training Questions
 

This is a huge subject. Many trainers that have written books or have DVD's spend a lot of time going over this.

It basically means that the dog understands that the shock from the collar is not some random act of God. It knows that the Handler is controlling it and that he recieves a nick when he doesnt do something you expect him to do. This usually takes a few sessions to where the dog completely understands the ecollar is you telling them that the did something wrong.

Try letting your dog wear the collar for a little while, while he eats, while you play, while your doing fun things... so that he isnt shy of the collar.

Then move into using it for reinforcement in training. Command a sit, say he doesnt sit Immediately, hes a little stubborn, give him a low impulse nick. He will probably yelp, spin around, try to get away from whatever just bit him. Maybe fight to get the collar off. Hold him, command sit, if no response, a nick. Same reaction but now he is beginning to associate the command, his lack of response, and the nick together. In a few days the dog should know what the nick means.

Good luck.