How is Wolters outdated?
 

After reading several old threads, I noticed a recurring theme that all of the books by Dick Wolters are outdated and obsolete. I would like you all to expand on specifics. I am currently training a female chocolate lab using Game Dog. It seemed like a good choice, as I will be using her for both upland and waterfowl work, and I want her to be proficient in handling. The training seems logical, step by step and straight forward, and while it is early on, so far things are going extremely well.

It is early enough that I can switch training styles, but I would like from those of you that feel he is outdated to give me some specifics on where is training comes up short, or where his premises are false. Do you feel he brings the dogs along too fast? Is Game Dog a little more up to date, since it is the most recent of his books? Please give me some insight.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

No FF, no CC, no FTP, no "distance handling", no complex scenarios (poison birds -- no birds -- no complex handling -- the list is endless, and I'm too tired to type).



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RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Doc, forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what CC, FF, or FTP stand for. As far as "distance handling" and complex handling, in Game dog, he talks you thru handling drills up to 200 yards away, with control and precision that would appear to tackle 99.9 % of hunting situations.

I'm not trying to argue. I just want a full understanding of the difference between his training method and the more "modern" forms of training. I should state that my goal is a top level HUNTING dog. I want a dog that can handle, that is precise on commands, and won't disobey just because he is excited. The dog will be steady to shot, and good at marking doubles and triples. No plans at all for field trials. Also I am a first time trainer, so overly advanced training might be over my head at this point.

Given what I am looking for can Wolters book get me there, or will I fall short?

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Got two words bout it bein outdated- It ISN'T!
I have read it, and my dad has trained many dogs, both pointing and retrieving, and all have been great-he met Wolters, a few years before he died- he thinks its a good book. I got my first last november, and shes a champ, Ive worked with a few books, one of which is Water Dog, and if you work through the numbers, your dog should be fine. Its very straight forward. I dont really find FF a need for my dog in particular, but I may do it, still debating, shes a little young for it yet. There are updated books, yes, and I think it would be best to read some of new and old, combine them and do what works for you and your dog. ;)

Ducks,

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

CC = Collar Conditioned (proper use of the electronic collar)
FF = Force Fetch (conditioned retrieve)
FTP = Force To Pile = an extension of FF (including Water Force etc)
I haven't looked at Gun Dog for quite a few years, so my comments were primarily based on Water Dog.

Field Trial dogs are asked to do things that the average hunter doesn't ever need, but Hunt Test dogs are required to do what any top notch Hunting Retriever does.
I have always said, "If you want a good "meat dog", go with Wolters -- If you want a really good meat dog and one that could run in the lower and mid levels of Hunt tests, go with 10 Minute Retriever -- if you want a world class meat dog and one that can perform at the higher levels of Hunt Tests, go with the SmartWork series.

There is nothing "wrong" with Wolters, but you'll end up with a much better trained and performing hunting dog if you go with more modern methods. One of the main advantages is the "sequential learning" that the modern methods employ. If you go with Wolters, I'd suggest totally ignoring his "time lines". All dogs learn at different rates. Wolters was an author, he was not a dog trainer, and neve titled a dog in his life. My greatest respect for him was the fact that he was the originator and father of all Hunt Tests that exist today.



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RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Which books did you use doc? I might have to get some of the "Smartwork" Series

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

DU987,

For a plain old meat dog, "Water Dog" is fine.
For a really good meat dog (of which you will be very proud)and one that could compete in low to mid-level Hunt Tests, "10 Minure Retriever" by Jophn and Amy Dahl.
For an exceptional meat dog (that everyone will be in awe of), and can compete in the highest levels of Hunt Tests, the "SmartWork" series (by Evan Graham) or the "Lardy Articles", by Mike Lardy.



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RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

IMHO Wolters isn't anymore outdated than Free is.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Have to agree, there are much better material than either one of those. Example- Free is adamant about waiting until a dog is one year of age to begin training.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Well, so far I am very pleased with how my puppy is coming along under Wolters,but I'm open to different styles, so if anyone has a copy of "Ten minute Retriever" that you are done with, PM me and I will buy it.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

I have trained 4 Labs using Water Dog as my basis and have been very happy with the results. For getting a dog started, I don't think there is a better book, but I will say that there are some "newer" techniques that Wolter did have during the 60's that will take a dog further and make a more useful dog.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

If you want to teach theonly basics, then "Water Dog" will probably work. If you have any desire to end up with a dog that is capable of doing more advance skills such as what is needed for Master Hunter or QAA. Then you should use a program that will get you there. It all depends on your goals. If what you want is a dog that can mark triples with factors out to and past 100yd, steady to the shot, run difficult100 yd+ blinds, won't switch, ignore diversions, take all casts, won't run the bank,then there are materials out there that can accomplish that. Water dog is not one of them. Materials such as Smartwork and Lardy are complete programs with flow charts and specific drills to teach all the skills needed for more advance work. I would suggest to go watch a Master Hunter test or a field trial to see for yourself what kind of work a retriever is capable of. Wolters material can train a meat dog if that's all you want. But other materials will do a better job for even that. And give your dog the foundation to takehim further if you choose to.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Lost Highway, I need to point out that I mentioned early that my pup is not being trained for any trial work. Also, you guys keep saying how outdated Wolters is, and you keep going back to "Water Dog". You should probably get more familiar with all of his works before you lump them together. Again, I am using "Game Dog", his most recent book, last revision being 1995. In it he discusses forced fetching, and electronic collars, but feels that for a high quality "hunting " dog, such types of training aren't required. The training he takes you through is not basic by any means. There is extensive work on upland training, hand signals and casting, and marking long retrieves. Please read the book. If at the end, you don't think that a dog trained that way will be anything more than an average hunting dog, then we just don't see eye to eye.

RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

Information taken from another website on Richard A. Wolters.... Referred to in the following alot as RAW....

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As regarding Richard A. Wolters, here are a couple of more observations about him from a retriever website:

"Wolters was an Insurance Salesman (or was it Real Estate?) that had a knack for writing & promoting, not a dog trainer. I can also give you the name of the Dog Trainer that rented him a kennel for "Tar" and straightened out Wolter's screw-ups."

"RAW never trained a dog before he wrote Water Dog. He sat down with Auggie Belmont, Peggy Long and some others and picked their brains to get some of the stuff he used in the book. His methods are by and large as outdated as letting a barber pull teeth."

" RAW NEVER got so much as a green ribbon in AKC competition. He was a writer and salesman not a dog man. Before he wrote Water Dog, he closeted himself on Long Island with Augie and Lousie Belmont and a bunch of other savvy dog folks and picked their brains." For those who don't know, a green ribbon refers to a Judges' Award of Merit (JAM) in the field trial community. It is a recognition that the dog did some recognizable work, but not good enough to place. It gets the dog not one step closer to a FC or AFC title, and Wolters never got one." So, that he may have run dogs in field trials, without more, is meaningless. You have a 6 month old AKC retriever? You can run them too.

I understand that RAW was one of the founders of NAHRA and that, apparently, came about because AKC did not want a gun dog stake in field trials (vis-a-vis hunt tests). However, I don't know how many tests he ever ran. From what I could find, he apparently did judge NAHRA tests some, but I don't know if that was beginning dogs or finished dogs.

RAW's first books came along when the average hunter was looking for some guidance. Heck, I've got two of his books that I bought some 35 years ago, 3 if you count the history book, I guess. The problem is that they were not very good. Unfortunately, too, his books started showing up around the same time as a really good book, "Training Retrievers to Handle" by D.L. and Ann Walters. Unfortunate name confusion. Since RAW's books seeming covered all of training, guess who got the emphasis? But, as stated above, much of what he says is about as outdated as asking a barber to pull teeth.

Copied and pasted from another site...


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RE: How is Wolters outdated?
 

I think pretty much any of the training books from different authors will result in a decent hunting dog if you follow the program prescribed. The thing I disagree with the most with Wolters theories is the 49 day deal (get your pup exactly on the 49th day....not a day before, a day after, at 8 weeks or whatever). That's just a theory and it holds no water whatsoever.