How is Wolters outdated?
04-25-2007, 07:17 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: aurora co USA
Posts: 49
How is Wolters outdated?
After reading several old threads, I noticed a recurring theme that all of the books by Dick Wolters are outdated and obsolete. I would like you all to expand on specifics. I am currently training a female chocolate lab using Game Dog. It seemed like a good choice, as I will be using her for both upland and waterfowl work, and I want her to be proficient in handling. The training seems logical, step by step and straight forward, and while it is early on, so far things are going extremely well.
It is early enough that I can switch training styles, but I would like from those of you that feel he is outdated to give me some specifics on where is training comes up short, or where his premises are false. Do you feel he brings the dogs along too fast? Is Game Dog a little more up to date, since it is the most recent of his books? Please give me some insight.
It is early enough that I can switch training styles, but I would like from those of you that feel he is outdated to give me some specifics on where is training comes up short, or where his premises are false. Do you feel he brings the dogs along too fast? Is Game Dog a little more up to date, since it is the most recent of his books? Please give me some insight.
04-25-2007, 07:49 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
No FF, no CC, no FTP, no "distance handling", no complex scenarios (poison birds -- no birds -- no complex handling -- the list is endless, and I'm too tired to type).
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04-25-2007, 08:31 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: aurora co USA
Posts: 49
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
Doc, forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what CC, FF, or FTP stand for. As far as "distance handling" and complex handling, in Game dog, he talks you thru handling drills up to 200 yards away, with control and precision that would appear to tackle 99.9 % of hunting situations.
I'm not trying to argue. I just want a full understanding of the difference between his training method and the more "modern" forms of training. I should state that my goal is a top level HUNTING dog. I want a dog that can handle, that is precise on commands, and won't disobey just because he is excited. The dog will be steady to shot, and good at marking doubles and triples. No plans at all for field trials. Also I am a first time trainer, so overly advanced training might be over my head at this point.
Given what I am looking for can Wolters book get me there, or will I fall short?
I'm not trying to argue. I just want a full understanding of the difference between his training method and the more "modern" forms of training. I should state that my goal is a top level HUNTING dog. I want a dog that can handle, that is precise on commands, and won't disobey just because he is excited. The dog will be steady to shot, and good at marking doubles and triples. No plans at all for field trials. Also I am a first time trainer, so overly advanced training might be over my head at this point.
Given what I am looking for can Wolters book get me there, or will I fall short?
04-26-2007, 06:17 AM
#4
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location:
Posts: 158
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
Got two words bout it bein outdated- It ISN'T!
I have read it, and my dad has trained many dogs, both pointing and retrieving, and all have been great-he met Wolters, a few years before he died- he thinks its a good book. I got my first last november, and shes a champ, Ive worked with a few books, one of which is Water Dog, and if you work through the numbers, your dog should be fine. Its very straight forward. I dont really find FF a need for my dog in particular, but I may do it, still debating, shes a little young for it yet. There are updated books, yes, and I think it would be best to read some of new and old, combine them and do what works for you and your dog.
Ducks,
I have read it, and my dad has trained many dogs, both pointing and retrieving, and all have been great-he met Wolters, a few years before he died- he thinks its a good book. I got my first last november, and shes a champ, Ive worked with a few books, one of which is Water Dog, and if you work through the numbers, your dog should be fine. Its very straight forward. I dont really find FF a need for my dog in particular, but I may do it, still debating, shes a little young for it yet. There are updated books, yes, and I think it would be best to read some of new and old, combine them and do what works for you and your dog.
Ducks,
04-26-2007, 08:05 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
CC = Collar Conditioned (proper use of the electronic collar)
FF = Force Fetch (conditioned retrieve)
FTP = Force To Pile = an extension of FF (including Water Force etc)
I haven't looked at Gun Dog for quite a few years, so my comments were primarily based on Water Dog.
Field Trial dogs are asked to do things that the average hunter doesn't ever need, but Hunt Test dogs are required to do what any top notch Hunting Retriever does.
I have always said, "If you want a good "meat dog", go with Wolters -- If you want a really good meat dog and one that could run in the lower and mid levels of Hunt tests, go with 10 Minute Retriever -- if you want a world class meat dog and one that can perform at the higher levels of Hunt Tests, go with the SmartWork series.
There is nothing "wrong" with Wolters, but you'll end up with a much better trained and performing hunting dog if you go with more modern methods. One of the main advantages is the "sequential learning" that the modern methods employ. If you go with Wolters, I'd suggest totally ignoring his "time lines". All dogs learn at different rates. Wolters was an author, he was not a dog trainer, and neve titled a dog in his life. My greatest respect for him was the fact that he was the originator and father of all Hunt Tests that exist today.
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FF = Force Fetch (conditioned retrieve)
FTP = Force To Pile = an extension of FF (including Water Force etc)
I haven't looked at Gun Dog for quite a few years, so my comments were primarily based on Water Dog.
Field Trial dogs are asked to do things that the average hunter doesn't ever need, but Hunt Test dogs are required to do what any top notch Hunting Retriever does.
I have always said, "If you want a good "meat dog", go with Wolters -- If you want a really good meat dog and one that could run in the lower and mid levels of Hunt tests, go with 10 Minute Retriever -- if you want a world class meat dog and one that can perform at the higher levels of Hunt Tests, go with the SmartWork series.
There is nothing "wrong" with Wolters, but you'll end up with a much better trained and performing hunting dog if you go with more modern methods. One of the main advantages is the "sequential learning" that the modern methods employ. If you go with Wolters, I'd suggest totally ignoring his "time lines". All dogs learn at different rates. Wolters was an author, he was not a dog trainer, and neve titled a dog in his life. My greatest respect for him was the fact that he was the originator and father of all Hunt Tests that exist today.
.
04-26-2007, 09:29 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Colville WA USA
Posts: 1,974
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
DU987,
For a plain old meat dog, "Water Dog" is fine.
For a really good meat dog (of which you will be very proud)and one that could compete in low to mid-level Hunt Tests, "10 Minure Retriever" by Jophn and Amy Dahl.
For an exceptional meat dog (that everyone will be in awe of), and can compete in the highest levels of Hunt Tests, the "SmartWork" series (by Evan Graham) or the "Lardy Articles", by Mike Lardy.
.
For a plain old meat dog, "Water Dog" is fine.
For a really good meat dog (of which you will be very proud)and one that could compete in low to mid-level Hunt Tests, "10 Minure Retriever" by Jophn and Amy Dahl.
For an exceptional meat dog (that everyone will be in awe of), and can compete in the highest levels of Hunt Tests, the "SmartWork" series (by Evan Graham) or the "Lardy Articles", by Mike Lardy.
.
04-28-2007, 09:40 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: golden co
Posts: 852
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
ORIGINAL: Ruddyduck
IMHO Wolters isn't anymore outdated than Free is.
IMHO Wolters isn't anymore outdated than Free is.
04-29-2007, 12:05 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: aurora co USA
Posts: 49
RE: How is Wolters outdated?
Well, so far I am very pleased with how my puppy is coming along under Wolters,but I'm open to different styles, so if anyone has a copy of "Ten minute Retriever" that you are done with, PM me and I will buy it.
