Training Help
 

I have an 11 month GSP, she has very good pointing instinct and seems very birdie. I am having two problems with her. First, she'll fetch for me all day at the park or in the yard even multiple dummies. When I get her in the field, even if we are not hunting she does not want to retrieve even here dummy if I throw it. Any suggestions?

Secondly, and more serious I took here out on pheasants and she works beautifully, we got up and shot 4 pheasants, she would run to the downed bird but not retreive as stated above. Then about half way through our hunt she seemed to develop some sort of gun shyness, when either we would shoot or someone would shoot in the distace she would run to my side and walk behind me and this continued for the rest of the hunt. I am a little confused because the shots on the first four pheasants didn't seem to bother her at all. When I got her home, to confirm my suspicion I fired a cap gun during fetch with the same results, she'd return to me and stay at my side. I'm not sure how to proceed to correct this. She shows great potential in every other area. Any comments?

RE: Training Help
 

I would seek a Pro trainer - Please stop all gunfire around this pup as Yes she has a problem.

It can be overcome with time but you do indeed need help.

Or
contact a local NAVHDA chapter in your area - they may be able to help too.

JW

RE: Training Help
 

Alot of people have advice on gun shyness. avoiding this problem is better than having to fix it. try feeding her and banging the pan around on the ground a little noise at first then more and more. she should start getting bolder as you do it more. (if she has a problem eating do not do this)
Next time you take her out don't shoot just let her have fun hunting pointing, knocking whatever. this develops bird drive and learning to hunt
after some time when she develops a strong drive of wanting the bird nothing else will matter. (this is not going to happen overnight) if hunting time is too valuable to spend on this dog, get her in training with a pro or get one that has already been trained. i find this to be less costly anyways. training fees vary but to start and finish one takes about 6 mnths over 2 seasons 3 to start and 3 to finish (with consistancey)
keep playing fetch with her in the yard it will work out latter. Any time you spend socializing or hunting makes a big difference (but it needs to be positive)

RE: Training Help
 

Hi my name is Dave Jones, I own Jonesy's Gun Dogs in Berea, Kentucky. I train and fix all breed bird dogs, and retrievers. What has happened sounds pretty familiar. Does your dog still like to chase the birds after this problem has occured? Or does she pull off of them midway, because she is anticipating the shot? How much had been done with her prior to this, meaning have you had a few guns going off, or just one gun usually when bird is in air?? Just trying to figure out the rest of the story. The biggest thing will always be patience, my self I don't feel now is the time for the banging of pots and pans, this does work, but it is usually for pups or dogs that have never been in a shooting incident, you follow?? What we have is a dog thats panicing for some reason when the gun now goes off, we have to figure out why. You can pm me, or phone 859-985-2918 or just re post and we see if we can get it figured out, ok?? Thanks Jonesy

RE: Training Help
 

Thanks guys, Dave, to answer your questions, prior to the first time I noticed the behavior she was out with three guns over her and multiple shots fired, she would chase the downed bird all the way to the ground, but not retreive yet. And now as long as there is no gun fire she loves to chase birds, cats, squirrels anything that moves. I have worked with her as a puppy with a pheasant wing. And she had always been "crazy" over it. We will end a training session put the wing away in the garage on the shelf and she will point it on the shelf until I pick her up and carry her away. That intensity is still there if no gunfire is introduced. Thanks for your number, what's a good time to call?

RE: Training Help
 

Usually done with all by 7:00 in the eves, sat and sun, pretty much all day, training ground is within 5 min of the house, so always checking on stuff. We'll worry bout the retrieving stuff later, gotta concentrate on gun issue first, no gun, no retrieves. Thanks Jonesy

RE: Training Help
 

I'm wonder if banging pots is good idea when actually introducing the gun. Point being, the dog gets used to loud noises but don't make the association with birds till later when the loud noises only happens around birds. My first setter it tooka few hunts to make the connection. My current one, her first hunting trip. Now, whenever she hears a gunshot she always half run towards it. But it seems that once they've made the association, you could fire multiple guns over them without a problem. I take my pup out to a popular duck/pheasant place where alot of shots are fired. The further the shots are the more she'd ignore them but closer shots she'll usually be interested. She never had a problem.

Authors should have a chapter on introducing multiple guns to dogs if they are advocating non-gun/bird association.

RE: Training Help
 

Mite,
You hit on the head
sometimes when i lose my dogs out hunting i just shoot the gun a few times and they will come check in to see what the shooting was about.

RE: Training Help
 

What I think is that right now that would not be good, because the food will never be as exciting as a bird. So the dog is walking a fine line of shy or not, so if there is not something as exciting as a bird between the legs flopping, i feel it will fall. The food is an everyday occurance, you its excited for supper, but the bird is alot more. It isn't allowed the time to think.......do I run, or catch this thing flopping tween my legs. 99% its gonna catch the flopper. and if it dont I will bet that it will few more birds later. Don't think it will be a hard prob to fix, but without seeing the responses, we don't know. I think just to much to fast.

RE: Training Help
 

Ive heard that it actually causes the dog pain when a shot is fired close by, and from this point of view it is probably a more natural response to be avoidant, until learning that the discomfort is worth it.

A method I was taught goes as follows:
take the dog to nearby a shooting range in use, and walk towards it until the dog starts to show discomfort. Then stay at that point until the dog is calm. Make some practice and generally a very pleasant time. When the stress reaction has diminished walk even closer to the shooters and repeat the training an fondling when the dog shows signs of fear again.
Let the dog set the pace for your forward movement, and when doing this repeatedly always start the sessionat a comfortable distance, but try not to leave, from the shooting range, when the dog is worried. That would increase the anxiety next time you train. End when its going good as with all training!
Ive only tried this once but it worked. And that was a GP to, a longhaired one.

RE: Training Help
 

I totally agree with jonsey. There is nothing more exciting for a dog than chasing birds. Let the dog mature a little bit.Sounds like to me that the dog needs some confidence building. If you show the dog birds for the rest of the off seasonit will do just that. You still have plenty of time to finish breaking your gsp. Just like Jonsey says patience is a virtue!

RE: Training Help
 

You never mentioned what type of gun breaking you did prior to your hunting trip. Hopefully the dog was gradually expossed to the sound of a shotgun, not just pots and pans, and cap guns. If so, there wust be another reason the dog went shy. Was the dog gun broke to the sound of just one gun, or multiple guns? Where your hunting buddies on that day the usuall group, or were there different players involved? Was everyone on their best behavior? There are so any variables to concider.

As stated earlier, I agree that pots and pans won't help at this point. Train only by yourself, and keep the dog in lots of birds. Buy them if you have to. Get the dog so excited that he doesn't notice the sound of the cap gun from 100 yards away. Fire it while he is occupied with the bird, either chasing it as it flys, or aggressively trailing, not while pointing. Always act like nothing happened after the shot.

Also, after you have the dog cured keep the number of guns shooting over it down until the dog is well matured.

I have always gun broke my dogs independent of the bird field. I start while they are eating, move on to walks and exercise sessions, and eventually move on to the skeet field. I want my dogs to be completely gun broke, not associating gunshots with reward. they will learn that later by themselves.

I also limit who I hunt a new dog with until the dogs second season, and sometimes late in the second season if I feel it's necessary. I don't need too many gun shots, and too many people confussing my dog.

RE: Training Help
 

One of the biggest things alot of trainers or handlers never think about......Miss the bird on purpose. When any dog comes here, that is a priority in my book, when the dog leaves, been lotsa shots, and few birds. Reason... because I know for a fact, you are gonna miss a bigger ave, than the owner is gonna hit. Yes, I do kill, and I do let the dogs be dogs, but the bigest thing is to put them in the positions they are gonna be in at home. And 9 outa 10 times, its gonna be watching the bird fly away. That will definately be a for sure, plus the other advantage is that the dog wont know what to expect the next time out.

RE: Training Help
 

I, too miss a lot of birds when training my dogs. That's because,.....well,.....I just miss. What can I say?

RE: Training Help
 

Man I was just pickin little bit, we all miss, just explaining what and why. This way there is less confusion

RE: Training Help
 

Blueditch42,
were did Jonesy say anything about your post
Sounds like what i said earlier.


Sometimes you have to take a step back to go a step forward.I often take dogs that other trainers or owners mess up. sometimes i take them all the way back to when they were a puppy.


I still believe that avoiding a problem is better than fixing one!!!!!!!!!

RE: Training Help
 

I will assume from prior post from other topics on different problems

RE: Training Help
 

I would hesitate to take the dog to a gun range. The dog needs to make the connection of birds and guns. Much easier if the dog ends up loving the sound of gunfire. Even at half a mile away, a gunshot can startle a dog. In my teen years, I took my first setter hunting. She wasn't introduced properly. We were hunting on the volcanos of Hawai'i when a gunshot firedfrom miles away. Too me it sounded very faint but the dogtucked it's tail between it's legs and jumped/ran 20 feet the other way. It took several pheasants to overcome her hesitation.

Get a .22, ahelper, and a two-way radio (cheap frs ones).Takeseveral clipped wingbirds. Let the dog play with a couple first. Then let the helper fire the .22 from far off. But make sure she's on a bird first. If she acts startled put it away. Do it again the next day.

RE: Training Help
 

Well, all I can say is that it worked on the two dogs Ive seen it used on.The dog will get the big picture when hunting starts. He will just have lower stress levels, wichmeans that he can accessmore of his brainpower to the hunting training.

If the dog starts to show inconvienience at a mile away then start the training at that distance. Im sure there are many ways to train dogs.

RE: Training Help
 

Your first problem doesn't sound to bad I like to tease my dogs with a
shot bird to get it to want it. Then throwing it and saying retrieve,
and after a while she will start getting it!
For your second problem I'm not to sure but, I believe someone was
too close when they shot. This causing a concusion from the noise
and scaring the daylights out of her! I believe keeping a little distance from my dogs is important as they are young still. I also believe what
Daleh is saying except I'm not sure about the pan banging. Birds,
birds, and more birds and alot of time. I wouldn't push her to hard and
good luck.

RE: Training Help
 

Without really seeing the dog, it is hard to say what should and can be done. That's the only reason I'd hesitate with the gun range. Actually, that's the way I let my goldie get used to gun fire. But she was hard headed enough that you could shoot a cannon over her and she wouldn't blink.

Letting the dog make the association early on is the safest way, in my opinion. Then gradually step up the sound. Aleast you have somewhat control over the environment and the noise. If you do take the dog to a gun range and it adversely effects the dog, you would be hard pressed to get the dog away fast enough.

This dog developed a shyness to gunfire andyou're suggestingtothrow the dog into the fire, so to speak. It would be a disservice to the owner if I didn't voice my reservations. So, no hard feelings. I just thought in this case it would be a mistake.

RE: Training Help
 

Im all with you Mite:)
The worst thing would be to go to a gun range, and get the dog terrified and then leave before it calms down. That would really teach the dog that gunfire is terrible and that he was lucky to get away. We want a slow and gradually approach of the noise (whether its a gun range or a cd playing with recorded gun fire). It is also important, regardless of the method used, that the training is done often. Or the scare will get recharged between sessions like with any phobia treatment:D.

I like the gun range method since there will be frequent gunfire at a controlled volume (with the distance) and it only requires one person.

RE: Training Help
 

That is where i got that from.