.223 over 4100 fps
 

I shot my Remington 700 VLS at 200 and 300 yards the other day and according to the drops with a 100 yard zero the Barnes book says my 40gr VLC with 30gr of H335 is moving between 4100 and 4200 fps. I really need to put it through a crony but the ballistics charts and drops I had are a good estimate. By the way I shot a 3.3" group at 300 yards.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Real fast , but if you try slowing the load down a little the groups may tighten up .
I am geting 1.9" groups at 300 with H 335 50 gr nosler BT out of my savage

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

with my savage mod 10 FP, at 300 yards I'm getting 1.3 inch groups with 60 grain hornady V-max and H4895.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Those are very good groups. Mine will touch holes at 100 yards so I know if I had sandbags I could have tightened my group up a little. I have a cheap Tasco 4-16x40 on it now, but I would like to get a Bushnell Elite 4200 in 4-16x40 for it.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

I think your estimate of 4100-4200fps for a .223 with ANY bullet is really high. If you'd have said .22-250 or 220 Swift, I might have believed it, but not the .223. My 22-250 shoots the factory 45gr Winchester JHP's (which are advertised at 4000fps) at an average velocity (by chronograph) of 4010fps, and the rounds are loaded hot enough to flatten the primers every shot.

I don't have my manuals handy (still packed from our recent move), but according to Hodgdon's data on their website, a MAX load of 28 grains of H335 should propel a 40gr Nosler BT at about 3572fps (and though the details of the barrel used aren't given other than length, I'd quess it was a pressure barrel mad to min. SAAMI specs that would give higher than normal velocities and pressures). You say you're using 30 grains of H335 (a 2 grain overcharge according to this data) to achieve 4100fps+, which indicates to me that you are either severely overestimating the velocity of the bullet, or you are getting pronounced, and potentially dangerous, pressure excursions due to the overcharge that are causing the velocity to be abnormally high.

Be careful with those loads, a couple hundred fps are NOT worth losing your hands, eyes, and/or life. If you really crave velocity that much, you need to step up to a cartridge that's designed to do it safely.

Mike

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Amen to that

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Driftrider

Perhaps you need to update your loading data. I have the most recent Barnes, Nosler and Speer manuals and 5th Hornady manual.

According to the Barnes manual their max load for their 40gr VLC is 31gr of H335 at 3932fps with a 24" barrel. My 700 has a 26" Heavy barrel and I use magnum primers which is recommended for this powder by my Speer manual.

Barnes, Nosler and Hornady have 40gr bullets over 3800fps, the Nosler and Barnes with 24" barrels. The coated bullets I use are capable of higher velocities with lower pressures. My 700 action is more than strong enough to handle a 40gr coated bullet with as much H335 as I can stuff in the case. My cases look fine and my primers are not popped out and there is hardly any recoil.

My velocities are estimates going by what my actual drop is and what the trajectory tables in my books say the velocity should be for those drops. It would not surprise me if a chrony showed my velocity to be close to my estimate. Why would I want to go to a 22-250 or 220 swift when I can get similar velocities out of my .223 with less powder and cheaper brass?

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

The extra 2" of barrel accounts for 100-150fps MAX. The data you have from Barnes for that very bullet (coating and all) shows a max load of 31 grains of H335 at 3925fps, but you think that you're getting 4100fps+ out of 30 grains. And ballistic charts are not the gospel either.

So you're using a magnum primer as recommended by one manual, with the data from another manual that doesn't use a magnum primer. What is the MAX load listed in the Speer manual for a 40gr bullet with a CCI magnum primer? I'd bet it's less than 31 grains.

If so, you're setting yourself up for pressure excursions.

As stated above, the data for the coated VLC bullet shows a max velocity of 3932fps. The coating is already factored into that data, which means that you are probably over MAX if you are really getting 4100fps+.

Well, if that's not the most reckless and ignorant statement I've ever heard, I can't remember what is! I watched a guy, sitting at the bench next to mine at the range, shooting an M700 BDL .223Rem, have a case rupture because he was shooting "misc. handloads." He was lucky that he didn't get a face full of hot gas and metal, but fortunately the rupture only blew the ammo, magazine, follower and floorplate CLEAN OFF THE RIFLE! He was lucky. Do you feel lucky?

One word:

SAFETY!!

Oh, and I do have the latest editions of both the Hornady Manual and Speer manual.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Like I said before my cases have no signs of dangerous pressures. 3932+150=4082fps so an ESTIMATE of 4100fps is not that far off. All rifles are different and shoot different.

The MAX load is not the TRUE MAX load either. The reloading books are not going to be liable for someone using their suggested max load and blowing their gun up. There is a large SAFETEY FACTOR. The gun manufacturers also have a large safety factor in their firearms as well. They don't want to be responsible for someone blowing their gun up with standard handloads or factory loads. It will take a lot more pressure than what my loads are generating to blow my gun up.

A good example of this is Hornadys Light Magnum loads. The current 7x57 Mauser Light Magnum load is a 139gr SST over 2900fps. Look at your latest Hornady manual at the 7x57 Mauser. See what the max load for the 139gr bullet is using IMR 4350. It should be 45.9gr at 2600fps. Hornadys 1973 Second edition has the same 139gr bullet with 50.9gr of IMR 4350 at 2900fps.

Reloading manuals are guides, they should be used as guides.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Reloading manuals do have lighter loads pulished than the "true maximum" for liability reasons, if small increments are made you can really improve max loads substantially and safely in modern firearms.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

I have thought about this some , I have been known to push the envolpe a little . But if you have 1 case with a defect with these hot loads you mayhave a case head seperation blown primed or worse. I have seen out of my gun a load that was not showing any case head expansion , show high presure with 30 degree of temp rise. Also the next lot of primers may be a "little" hoter or the next jug of powder may burn a "little" faster and create a presure problem. Is your gun or your and others standing close safty worth the few extra fps. IMO the only shurly safe way to increase speed is to increase usable case capasity and with a 40 gr. bullet you can't seat it out far enough to get you there safly

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Gundigest...
That's a new one for me:eek:......care to explain it?

There isnt but one way to really know the velocity of a given load in a particular firearm and that is to chronograpgh them. Plain and Simple. You can take all the loading manuals/ballistic charts etc that were ever written and the only thing they will do is give a rough idea. There are way to many variables in the mix...barrels, chambers, powder lots, weather condtions etc. that have a part in velocites/pressure. Without chronograpghing, it's merely a guessing game, even with ballistic charts.

This kinda reminds me of the guy that said a hog he shot weighed 400 lbs, when asked what scale he used, he responded he didnt weigh it but it felt like it was heavy as 400 lbs.

I have been in this game for a long time, the reloading companies have researched and have spent 100's of thousands of dollars to compile safe loads. I would think they know about safe limits. There will always be that crowd that says...whos cares about what brand x company says, I am loading ____ more grains of powder and I dont have pressure signs....BS. Again, without taking pressure readings of your loads you are only "guessing" at it. It's your arm,eyes,fingers, life though.

By the way, would not a little heavier bullet(BC good) have the advantage over a 40 grain (BC bad), sometimes faster MV's with low bc's will fall behind a bullet of higher bc that starts with a lower M V?

doubleA

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

I heard that a 223 is maxed out velocity wise at about 22 inches of barrel, and longer barrels only give you stability(accuracy). With such a small case it would not surprise me if all powder is burned in a shorter barrel, which would make this true. To get extra velocity out of a longer barrel you need to have powder capacity to use the extra space for burning. Anyone know forsure?

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Double A

latter, I thought about the heavy barrel and decided that it was not correct that it would take higher pressures.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Long range shooting typically does yeild better results with heavier bullets, and gundigest your heavy barrel will not allow you to overpressure compared to other barrels, you should know that!

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

"your heavy barrel will not allow you to overpressure compared to other barrels, you should know that!"
What book did this come from this is a new to me ?
all of the max loads in all of the load manuals are under the true max
and all gun designs have to be pressure tested at 2 times their intended use to sale to the public.
a max load for one gun may not be in another
I had two 243 rifles and the max load in one was fine and the other it was hard to open the bolt after firing the same load.
a cartrige can have a pressure rating of 65,000 lbs and in the load book it will tell you the max load is 57,000 lbs, this is only because of libilities. not because your gun will expload
in your face.
(if you want your bullet to get there quicker then leave the house sooner)
accuracy is always more important than speed

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

According to my Speer #13, with 40grn bullets and H335, 28.5 is listed as max load (and also is listed as a compressed load) with a velocity of 3133fps. I don't know how you could figure that an extra 4" of barrel and 1.5 grains of powder would get an extra 1000fps. Anyway, if you wanted something that fast or faster you need to look at .22-250, .220 swift, or .223wssm. Don't over do it, I've loaded for guns that show pressure signs before you hit the "max" loads. And remember that the weakest link in the chain is not the rifle, but the casing.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

Id suggest you get yourself a chronograph if you are serious about shooting. Your 223 is not moving a 40 at 4100. You mentioned there being no advantage of a swift when you can get the same velocity out of your popgun. If your 223 is getting 4100, just think what the swift will do with 10 more grains of powder.....

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

For all of the late posters that don't take the time to read every post, let me sum it up for you.

I used the Barnes Book which has a max load of 31gr H335 I am using 30gr with 40gr XLC coated bullets. The Barnes book has a velocity of 3932 fps out of a 24" barrel. My cases show no signs of excessive pressure.

My gun touches holes at 100 yards with this load.

My velocity ESTIMATE is based on the bullet drop at 200 and 300 yards with a 100 yard zero.

Looking at a few of my guns I do believe that my 26" heavy barrel has a slight amount more steel around the neck and bullet than a shorter tapered barrel does. That is what I was thinking when I posted the heavy barrel statement.

I can get 4000 fps with less powder and cheaper brass than a 220 swift or a 22-250 and my cases look fine and don't stick in the chamber.

If you feel like being argumentative call Barnes and tell them that you don't believe that their max loads, velocities, or ballistics charts are even close to being accurate. Im sure they would like to talk to you.

RE: .223 over 4100 fps
 

You need to get yourself a chronograph. Simple, reliable and accurate units can be purchased for around $75. Published reloading data will give you a good idea of what speeds you can get at acceptable pressure levels with a particular powder/bullet combination. Extensive testing has shown that working up to published velocity levels is a better indicator of pressure than powder charge weight.

John Barsnes did a great article on this subject in handloader magazine awhile back. He used actual laboratory pressure data and compared it to "traditional" pressure signs. He found that good quality rifles and brass will often tolerate extreme overloads with no stiff bolt lift or cratered primers. The chronograph showed the overpressure everytime.