.243 WIN - Neck Tension
08-08-2019, 09:13 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
A guy shooting a ladder test for long range shooting is a lot less silly than hand sorting case necks with a neck bushing and an expanding mandrel. Just sayin’...
A lot of short range benchrest guys I used to shoot with didn’t even own a chronograph - small velocity spread doesn’t win 100/200yrd benchrest matches. All of the long range benchrest guys I used to shoot with did ladder testing - these were “old guys” already 20yrs ago when they taught it to me. Big velocity spreads DO lose 600/1000 benchrest matches. The process is older than any of the man-bun millennials described above.
A lot of short range benchrest guys I used to shoot with didn’t even own a chronograph - small velocity spread doesn’t win 100/200yrd benchrest matches. All of the long range benchrest guys I used to shoot with did ladder testing - these were “old guys” already 20yrs ago when they taught it to me. Big velocity spreads DO lose 600/1000 benchrest matches. The process is older than any of the man-bun millennials described above.
Last edited by Nomercy448; 08-08-2019 at 09:16 AM.
08-08-2019, 10:37 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,780
Surely the ladder and related methods can produce good information, if you know what you are doing and why you are doing it. It also requires a bit of accuracy. I have seen guys (that could not shoot well at all) at the club do ladders at 100 yards, end up with a target that looks as if it was hit by a shotgun with a load of 00, and think they had some sort of valuable information from the results. Even if you can shoot well the 100 yard ladders are really of very limited use.
Short range BR is where I began. We use chronographs and anything else that could possibly produce smaller aggs. I believe most of us would try chanting, incense, feathers, or magic if we thought it might help.
The man bun comment was simply a stray thought and had nothing to do with the topic.
Short range BR is where I began. We use chronographs and anything else that could possibly produce smaller aggs. I believe most of us would try chanting, incense, feathers, or magic if we thought it might help.
The man bun comment was simply a stray thought and had nothing to do with the topic.
08-08-2019, 04:33 PM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,745
Does this miniscule out of alignment affect accuracy? My opinion is no. I believe that any physical change to the bullet if any will be corrected by the time it leaves the muzzle.
08-11-2019, 01:15 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,780
My concentricity tools are currently gathering dust. A basic tool uses a dial indicator to measure runout and has a screw that can be used to press the bullet into better alignment. It is slow and never gave me any measurable improvement in group size. A well adjusted set of good dies and a good rigid press does the trick. I only used the tools occasionally to tell me if the dies were set improperly. If you go to a benchrest match you will usually see fellows reloading right at the range and you might be surprised at the minimal tools that are used.
Turning the case 180 degrees does little, if anything.
Turning the case 180 degrees does little, if anything.
08-12-2019, 11:29 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,902
For me, it depends on what I need my ammunition to do. If I’m hunting, I don’t need 1/4 MOA groups, even if I might want them in my mind. Even for precision rifle competition, there’s no sense in going to extremes of case uniforming.
I shot a Satterlee curve a couple months ago to confirm my node for a PRS match. The objective was to collect velocity data, so I don’t really shoot for groups, but I have to shoot at SOMETHING, so I hang this kind of target. The biggest group there is under half inch, the smallest is .11”.
These were 2nd firing Hornady brass, Ultrasonic cleaned, Hornady One Shot lubed (wiped off after sizing, not tumbled/washed), FL sized with a Redding Type S Match bushing die, expanded with a carbide Sinclair mandrel, trimmed with an RCBS 3way cutter, primed on a Bald Eagle bench primer, charged with an RCBS Chargemaster, seated in a Wilson chamber die on an arbor press. Fired hastily, round robin, from a bipod and a rear bag with the Magnetospeed attached to the suppressor, and about 150 rounds fired on the barrel since the last cleaning.
No weight sorting of cases nor bullets, nor primers. No neck turning, no annealing, no pocket or flash hole uniforming, no hand sorting with a neck bushing. Just cheap Hornady brass, sorted by firing and lot number, FL sized, mandrel expanded, and seated in an arbor press.
I COULD have sorted cases, COULD have turned necks. COULD have annealed. But tell me how much smaller my groups would have been for having done so?
I shot a Satterlee curve a couple months ago to confirm my node for a PRS match. The objective was to collect velocity data, so I don’t really shoot for groups, but I have to shoot at SOMETHING, so I hang this kind of target. The biggest group there is under half inch, the smallest is .11”.
These were 2nd firing Hornady brass, Ultrasonic cleaned, Hornady One Shot lubed (wiped off after sizing, not tumbled/washed), FL sized with a Redding Type S Match bushing die, expanded with a carbide Sinclair mandrel, trimmed with an RCBS 3way cutter, primed on a Bald Eagle bench primer, charged with an RCBS Chargemaster, seated in a Wilson chamber die on an arbor press. Fired hastily, round robin, from a bipod and a rear bag with the Magnetospeed attached to the suppressor, and about 150 rounds fired on the barrel since the last cleaning.
No weight sorting of cases nor bullets, nor primers. No neck turning, no annealing, no pocket or flash hole uniforming, no hand sorting with a neck bushing. Just cheap Hornady brass, sorted by firing and lot number, FL sized, mandrel expanded, and seated in an arbor press.
I COULD have sorted cases, COULD have turned necks. COULD have annealed. But tell me how much smaller my groups would have been for having done so?
09-23-2019, 03:53 AM
#17
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 13
NoMercy448,
Thank you for your suggestions. I am amazed at your skills at the re-loading workbench and at the rifle range.
I first started all of this sorting stuff in an effort to assemble more consistent cartridges.
Yes... I do understand that there are three major components leading to smaller group sizes: the shooter, the rifle, and the ammo. I decided to experiment with the latter. It is a lot of fun to play with different ideas.
Thank You,
Ron
Thank you for your suggestions. I am amazed at your skills at the re-loading workbench and at the rifle range.
I first started all of this sorting stuff in an effort to assemble more consistent cartridges.
Yes... I do understand that there are three major components leading to smaller group sizes: the shooter, the rifle, and the ammo. I decided to experiment with the latter. It is a lot of fun to play with different ideas.
Thank You,
Ron
