Small Base Dies
 

I have semi auto, and bolt action 30-'06 rifles. I am going to be hand loading for the upcoming deer season. In the past I have used small base dies for my semi auto. I would like to use the upcoming hand loads in both my semi, and bolt, so my question is, is there a downside to use small base handloads in a bolt action?

If you're simply reloading - meaning effectively recreating what could easily be a factory load, not particularly suited for any given rifle - then you're not fully realizing the potential of your rifles, but you do garner the "advantage" of being able to prepare generic ammunition which works well enough in any of your firearms of that cartridge.

The small base resize won't well fit your bolt gun chamber, then I would hope the headspace matching well to try to center on the shoulder, else that cartridge will be swimming around in the chamber. What's the base-to-ogive length for your selected bullet in each rifle? The headspace length?

How precise of ammunition are you wanting to produce? If you're just reloading, not really handloading, then you'll likely be able to find a load which works fine in both. If you're wanting to handload and find an optimal round for either rifle, then small base sizing for the bolt gun won't bring any benefit.

However, as long as you're getting a well fit headspace, in 30-06, you likely will only see a very slight shift in precision, if you see any measureable effect at all.

I use Lee. No idea base size. I disagree with the comment about just creating generic factory loads.

Whenever you try different powder loads you are going past good enough factory. I would argue the same could be said for the bullet you use. But you could spend $$$ a get higher end bullets too. Then there is seating depth.

I realize I am not are a long to reach the maximum, but I am past factory.

I have heard people say to use small base for pump rifles. But you hear lots of BS about pumps that is not true.

:eek2:

If you don't make ammunition which fits your chamber better than factory loads, or with a more forgiving powder charge for the selected powder and bullet weight, then you're not making anything better than factory, just because you pressed it yourself.

If a guy is arbitrarily trying to make rounds which fit multiple rifles - for example using a small base die and full length sizing to accommodate a pump rifle, then shoving those rounds into a bolt action which might have a longer, looser chamber, he could very easily find himself with rounds which aren't well suited to the bolt gun, and have consequentially poor precision.

The simple act of reloading doesn't automatically produce high performing rounds - if a guy doesn't know how to pick a powder & charge weight which will yield consistent release (google Positive Compensation), and doesn't know how to match their ammo to their chambers, they're not doing themselves any favors.

If your Lee isn't marked "SB," then it's a standard FL die, not a small base.

Well, after much discussion, I will continue to make my handloads for my remington .30-'06 7400 semi with RCBS small base dies. I will also continue to make my handloads for my savage bolt .30-'06 with standard RCBS dies.

So you are using different 30-06 dies? What effect does the base have, and why choose it for each rifle? I do not know the answer, and wonder if you do either?


I use the same 30-06 die for my pump and bolt rifles. I have used neck sized brass from bolt in pump, and it worked just fine for 100 yards. Though my normal loads for the pump are full sized. My bolts neck and full.

Maybe you are getting better results than me. So far I am only 1 MOA. But I think I can do better, but yet to prove it.

The use of a small base die with a pump action rifle has nothing to do with precision, but can be an advantage for reliable feeding and chambering.

Since there's no camming leverage to help close a pump gun on a slightly oversized cartridge as there is for a bolt rifle, small base dies offer an advantage. If a guy has a sufficiently loose chamber, then a standard die will size the base small enough to close comfortably. Some guys note in the 7600's, it can be almost impossible to close the bolt slowly, as in sneaking it closed when chambering that first round upon arrival at the stand, when using a standard FL die. Slam the pump forward and a guy might find little difference. Similarly, in 223/5.56 for AR's or 30-06 for M1 Garands or 308win for M1a's, if you ride the charger forward slowly, match chambers in custom barrels might argue with reliable chambering of rounds sized with FL dies.

It's a common enough issue for pump guns.

For the OP, I'd personally measure the case bases of once fired and FL resized rounds from your pump gun. If you have sufficient downsizing of the base for reliable feeding, don't look for a problem where there is none. If there's insufficient base sizing with a standard FL die, then I'd measure the same offset for your bolt gun, compared to the FL resized base AND the small base resized base. If the small base isn't significantly undersized, roll on and be happy, small base everything. If the small base IS significantly undersized, then I'd compare the headspace of the fired brass from each rifle. If a significant shoulder bump in the pump gun would be a lesser but sufficient shoulder kiss in the bolt gun, then I'd roll on and small base everything. If the headspace dimensions don't match up well, I'd continue to use separate dies for each.

Important in all of these comparisons is to observe the appropriate base to ogive length for each chamber. If you have a short throat and close leade in one rifle but not in the other, then you can be sure you'll struggle to find a seating depth which really well suits both rifles, regardless of the results of the above comparisons, so you'd need to seat the bullets differently for both rifles. If the throats do match up for base to ogive length AND the above criteria are met for headspace and base size, then roll on with one load made for both chambers. Considering a bolt gun against a pump gun, the likelihood of this all lining up might be on par with finding a rainbow farting unicorn.

So how does the product of small base die, compare to factory ammo?

With factory ammo, I know I can't sneak a round in. I can't imagine being able to. On a side note, that we have to load in the blind, is an over step of the DNR. DNR has no regar for the 2nd Amendment or 4th.


As forn pumps, I find there is alot of misinformation out there. Is this one, I dunno. But they don't deserve the rep for poor accuracy.

Ya they have less camming, and this may help. But I would think this would only be needed on higher pressure loads. I have no problem with full published IMR4350. Thouh I did have some problems with Hunter.


Why bother owning both dies? Why not just use small base dies for everything?

Again, wouldn't small base dies, be smaller than factory, which are built in any rifle? Though at lower pressures.

You're confusing yourself. The extraction camming action of a bolt action is not the same as the leverage advantage gained to aid in closing the bolt on a slightly oversized cartridge.

Load is irrelevant. If the round is a little oversized, the pump gun doesn't give you the leverage advantage to CLOSE the bolt. A slightly oversized round might actually open easier after firing compared to how it closed when loaded.

If you can't "sneak it closed," then your rounds are oversized. Whether that's long on headspace or fat on base diameter. A guy should be able to close the action just as easily when loaded as when empty - with just a slight bit of additional felt resistance.

Making small rounds to fit a small chamber might leave the rounds undersized for a larger chamber. This over works the brass for that rifle, and leaves the cartridge with excessive "slop" in the chamber - and a major driver of precision is consistent and concentric positioning of the bullet in the bore axis, centered and true, when fired. If you're undersizing the brass, it'll lay or wedge to one side of the chamber and may not center itself as well as if it were properly sized. See my description above (again) in my other posts describing how this can be managed, ONLY if the chambers match for headspace.

No idea what you meant to say here, as it reads like gibberish to me. A small base die is needed only when the cartridge is forced into an interference fit when chambered. As described repeatedly above, the base is one of the control points to ensure the cartridge is centered in the chamber, so the bore is released cleanly on the bore axis. So often the base is the tightest dimension on the ammunition - especially with a tapered body cartridge like the .30-06. This is what creates that resistance when you're trying to close the slide, and what a small base die can correct.

Small base dies have a purpose. Failing to understand cartridge-to-chamber fitment or firearms action design does not negate the purpose or advantage of a small base die for applications it is needed.

:fighting0007:

have never used small base dies on anything except 1 browning auto that had a min. spec chamber If you use SB dies and don't need them, brass life sux!
RR

My question was, how do rounds sized with small base dies compare to factory sized brass, that is meant to fit in every rifle?


I really havn't noticed that it is harder to close a loaded pump. What I have noticed is that if you don't close it with some force, it may not go off. I'd be curious to try a small base die. But the action of a pump is not the same as a bolt, as that the handle locks in a bolt at a definite stop.


As for camming and extraction and loads, higher pressure loads can be harder to extract, once fired ,in pumps.

I am not expert, and admit. But to me, the bolt is not that different on my 7600 and 700, as to how it headspaces the round in the barrel. To me the action driving the bolt, is the difference.

It IS the action driving the bolt which is the difference - which is the entire point of the small base die.

When your 7600 "won't go off" because you didn't close it with force, it's the bolt's failure to fully lock into battery. I.e. Cinderella's foot didn't quite fit into the shoe, so it didn't quite go on all the way, now she can't dance at the ball.

Why didn't the bolt close fully? What is preventing it from cleanly and easily closing fully into battery? Might be excessive headspace, might be excessive base diameter.

You'll note, you often see the same problem with factory ammo as you see with standard FL resized brass - just a little difficult to close into battery. So while factory ammo "should" fit any chamber, quite frankly, it just doesn't fit many chambers well. While a slight "crush fit" is advantageous for precision, and doesn't cause issues for a bolt gun with sufficient locking leverage, the pump action design lacks this leverage, and can't tolerate the same cartridge over-size dimensions as a bolt gun.

If a guy doesn't understand it, it's no less of a reality.

If your slide closes slowly and dry-fires on an empty chamber, then it should equally close and fire slowly on a loaded cartridge. If it doesn't, then there's something dimensionally wrong with the cartridge. If that dimensional mis-fitment is the base diameter, then a small base die will fix your problem.

That all may be true. But I am positive, you simply are not extending the bolt far enough. I don't notice a difference closing it loaded or not. But I am not be sensitive enough to it.

I am just skeptical when here stuff about pumps. People say they are not accurate. What I do notice is mine heats up fast, and fouls quickly, which gives people that impression. But I have it to 1MOA, and practice and loads, could probably do better.

If I came across some bases, I play with them. But noting going to go out and buy them. It seems weird that Remington would build a rifle that can't shoot factory ammo. But I also realize things can be improved

It is.

Yup, that's the problem. The slide action doesn't afford the shooter enough leverage to "crush fit" the cartridge into the chamber, so it doesn't fully close into battery. Using a small base die will fix that.

Seems like you're lying to yourself when you say this, since you've already said:

Sure seems like you're noticing a difference, when you said yourself you have to run the slide with some force otherwise you won't get full lock up...

You wouldn't be sensitive to it when you run the slide forcefully. But as you said yourself, you "can't sneak a round in." That's a cartridge sizing problem, whether you're too ignorant to acknowledge it or not.

I didn't say they're not accurate, so don't get your panties in a twist just because you like pump guns and you took this thread as an insult to your manhood. I pointed out the reason behind the troubles you yourself admit to having with feeding rounds, which is a common issue for many pump action rifles. You're not the only guy who has ran a pump rifle in their life, and many men before you or I have seen the advantage of running small base dies to make pump guns run smoother.

Remington did make a rifle which can shoot factory ammunition - but it requires the slide to be ran hard to do so. Dozens if not hundreds of AR manufacturers make their rifles overgassed, which beats up their own action, and beats up their brass... Not their problem if it works well enough in the field. Ruger Mark Series pistols are the most popular 22LR pistol on the market, and they come with what many of us consider to be DREADFUL triggers, requiring a $25 replacement sear from Volquartsen. And just like using small base dies with semi-auto and pump action rifles, the gas flow on those AR's, and the triggers in Ruger Mark Series pistols "can be improved" too...

But there are plenty of fools who stick themselves into the mud at their own detriment and refuse to tamper with anything in their AR-15, or replace the fire control components of their Mark Series pistols, or try small base dies to help let them "sneak a round into" their pump gun...

I've tried hard enough to lead this particular horse to water...

I don't take this as an insult to my manhood. I am just not convinced some guy on the internet who is convinced he is right, is right.

If you read my posts, I am not convinced an empty rifle close easier.

The racking mechanism on a bolt and pump is worls apart. I am not convinced it can be an easier. But like I said, I would try some if I came across them.

I do find it hard to believe that remingtom corlockts don't fit well into a remington 760.

Myself, I got a pump, bolt, and lever. This year will be lever. Next you will tell me I can quitely load lever too.

Rest assured if NM, says it, its a fact!
RR

I just don't trust people when they are so cock sure. He may be right. But he comes across as a winner.

then why ask questions forum if you don't believe the answers? NM is the most intelligent gun nut I have ever shot the $hit with, he will not steer you wrong.
RR

I came here to discuss, not accept blindly. Again, I am not saying he is wrong. I have heard the small base die parrotted before. But I just don't believe the bolt will ever close quiete on a pump, due to ts design. Maybe small base will make it better.


He is confident enough in his knowledge, for the both of us. But that does not make him automatically right, and others wrong.

I started reloading in 1978, have loaded many, many thousands of rounds, a lot of which were for a Remington 760 in 270, never used SB dies, never had a problem, have never trimmed a case for that rifle, I do not have to use force to close mine loaded, if you have to use force either your die is adjusted incorrectly or you have a tight chamber and need a small base die. regardless of what you think NM is correct.
RR

What is force?

You can close a bolt with minimal effort. A pump is more mass. Operate a rifle with less pressure restraints, and it can world apart, from a higher pressure round.

What do I consider force, and you?

I don't think I am applyig force that is excessive. But maybe you and the other guy want to get in my panties and look around.

I can't tell the difference between factory remington ammo, full length sizing, or neck sizing for different rifle.

I am not saying it is BS, I would give it try if I came across one, but I am not bowing down either.

Today was not the first time I handled a rifle, nor my penis, which is what we can compare next.

congrats you have joined an elite group, with 3 others since 1998, you made my ignore list
RR

Ignore lists are for chicks and millenials, who need a safe place.

All because I have my own opinion.

As with liberals, it is ok to protest and have an opinion, as long as it is their's. But if someone disagrees, they must be stopped.

2185 posts since 2003.

'03 was the 3rd software update after I joined in 1998, march I believe it was, all post counts restarted then when data was lost, in 2010 I was temp banned for what I thought was unfair reasons, had a good friend who was a mod delete 8K posts don't post much anymore because a lot of new members have the same attitude as you!
RR

Atleast I don't lie about needing a safe place.

What is my attitude??

I said I would try it, if I ever came across some small base dies, but I had my doubts.


This bothers you so much you need a safe place. Please give me a list of members I am not to quetion, and topics, I am not allowed have an opinion.

But when a member wants to get in my panties, I back off, and question them.

After reading this sad thread I got out my 30-06 pump and played around a bit.

With an empty chamber the rifle would dry fire no matter how gently I closed the slide. With a Remington factory round the rifle would fire no matter how gently I closed the slide. However, with handloaded rounds using a standard die the rifle was inconsistent and would not always fire if the slide was closed gently.

My micrometer shows a small difference in the diameter of the case near the base between the handloaded round and the factory round. Either a small base die that returns the case to original factory specs or extra snap upon closing looks like the solution.

As an aside, I have read many posts by both Ridgerunner and NoMercy over the years. Although we may not always agree on all matters I have never found either of them to lack knowledge and experience when it comes to rifles and handloading, nor have I noticed them to be fellows that initiate friction.

I am no wilting daisy, so I don't mind, but see it differenr than you.

But when guys are cock sure of themselves, I start to doubt them, or tune them out.


Its been awhile I don't thing the issue is it not firing. It is the round not going off. Been along time, I don't recall a dented primer, but didn't look. One time it happened, I was actually able to rack it out and back in, with a doe about 30 yards, not in a blind. Took awhile.

SB dies are designed to accommodate the tolerances of semi-auto feed to chambers, and are NOT generally recommended for bolt and pump action firearm reloading.

Here's some light reading to update your own information, copied directly from RCBS's product page:

Here's the link:

RCBS Small Base Die Product Page

Here's more of the same from Forster on their dies:

And its respective link:

Forster Products Brochure