Small Base Dies
09-23-2017, 07:37 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
Load is irrelevant. If the round is a little oversized, the pump gun doesn't give you the leverage advantage to CLOSE the bolt. A slightly oversized round might actually open easier after firing compared to how it closed when loaded.
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No idea what you meant to say here, as it reads like gibberish to me.
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I really havn't noticed that it is harder to close a loaded pump. What I have noticed is that if you don't close it with some force, it may not go off. I'd be curious to try a small base die. But the action of a pump is not the same as a bolt, as that the handle locks in a bolt at a definite stop.
As for camming and extraction and loads, higher pressure loads can be harder to extract, once fired ,in pumps.
09-23-2017, 07:41 AM
#12
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
I am not expert, and admit. But to me, the bolt is not that different on my 7600 and 700, as to how it headspaces the round in the barrel. To me the action driving the bolt, is the difference.
09-23-2017, 09:26 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
It IS the action driving the bolt which is the difference - which is the entire point of the small base die.
When your 7600 "won't go off" because you didn't close it with force, it's the bolt's failure to fully lock into battery. I.e. Cinderella's foot didn't quite fit into the shoe, so it didn't quite go on all the way, now she can't dance at the ball.
Why didn't the bolt close fully? What is preventing it from cleanly and easily closing fully into battery? Might be excessive headspace, might be excessive base diameter.
You'll note, you often see the same problem with factory ammo as you see with standard FL resized brass - just a little difficult to close into battery. So while factory ammo "should" fit any chamber, quite frankly, it just doesn't fit many chambers well. While a slight "crush fit" is advantageous for precision, and doesn't cause issues for a bolt gun with sufficient locking leverage, the pump action design lacks this leverage, and can't tolerate the same cartridge over-size dimensions as a bolt gun.
If a guy doesn't understand it, it's no less of a reality.
If your slide closes slowly and dry-fires on an empty chamber, then it should equally close and fire slowly on a loaded cartridge. If it doesn't, then there's something dimensionally wrong with the cartridge. If that dimensional mis-fitment is the base diameter, then a small base die will fix your problem.
When your 7600 "won't go off" because you didn't close it with force, it's the bolt's failure to fully lock into battery. I.e. Cinderella's foot didn't quite fit into the shoe, so it didn't quite go on all the way, now she can't dance at the ball.
Why didn't the bolt close fully? What is preventing it from cleanly and easily closing fully into battery? Might be excessive headspace, might be excessive base diameter.
You'll note, you often see the same problem with factory ammo as you see with standard FL resized brass - just a little difficult to close into battery. So while factory ammo "should" fit any chamber, quite frankly, it just doesn't fit many chambers well. While a slight "crush fit" is advantageous for precision, and doesn't cause issues for a bolt gun with sufficient locking leverage, the pump action design lacks this leverage, and can't tolerate the same cartridge over-size dimensions as a bolt gun.
If a guy doesn't understand it, it's no less of a reality.
If your slide closes slowly and dry-fires on an empty chamber, then it should equally close and fire slowly on a loaded cartridge. If it doesn't, then there's something dimensionally wrong with the cartridge. If that dimensional mis-fitment is the base diameter, then a small base die will fix your problem.
09-23-2017, 01:35 PM
#14
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
That all may be true. But I am positive, you simply are not extending the bolt far enough. I don't notice a difference closing it loaded or not. But I am not be sensitive enough to it.
I am just skeptical when here stuff about pumps. People say they are not accurate. What I do notice is mine heats up fast, and fouls quickly, which gives people that impression. But I have it to 1MOA, and practice and loads, could probably do better.
If I came across some bases, I play with them. But noting going to go out and buy them. It seems weird that Remington would build a rifle that can't shoot factory ammo. But I also realize things can be improved
I am just skeptical when here stuff about pumps. People say they are not accurate. What I do notice is mine heats up fast, and fouls quickly, which gives people that impression. But I have it to 1MOA, and practice and loads, could probably do better.
If I came across some bases, I play with them. But noting going to go out and buy them. It seems weird that Remington would build a rifle that can't shoot factory ammo. But I also realize things can be improved
09-23-2017, 02:53 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,905
It is.
Yup, that's the problem. The slide action doesn't afford the shooter enough leverage to "crush fit" the cartridge into the chamber, so it doesn't fully close into battery. Using a small base die will fix that.
Seems like you're lying to yourself when you say this, since you've already said:
Sure seems like you're noticing a difference, when you said yourself you have to run the slide with some force otherwise you won't get full lock up...
You wouldn't be sensitive to it when you run the slide forcefully. But as you said yourself, you "can't sneak a round in." That's a cartridge sizing problem, whether you're too ignorant to acknowledge it or not.
I didn't say they're not accurate, so don't get your panties in a twist just because you like pump guns and you took this thread as an insult to your manhood. I pointed out the reason behind the troubles you yourself admit to having with feeding rounds, which is a common issue for many pump action rifles. You're not the only guy who has ran a pump rifle in their life, and many men before you or I have seen the advantage of running small base dies to make pump guns run smoother.
Remington did make a rifle which can shoot factory ammunition - but it requires the slide to be ran hard to do so. Dozens if not hundreds of AR manufacturers make their rifles overgassed, which beats up their own action, and beats up their brass... Not their problem if it works well enough in the field. Ruger Mark Series pistols are the most popular 22LR pistol on the market, and they come with what many of us consider to be DREADFUL triggers, requiring a $25 replacement sear from Volquartsen. And just like using small base dies with semi-auto and pump action rifles, the gas flow on those AR's, and the triggers in Ruger Mark Series pistols "can be improved" too...
But there are plenty of fools who stick themselves into the mud at their own detriment and refuse to tamper with anything in their AR-15, or replace the fire control components of their Mark Series pistols, or try small base dies to help let them "sneak a round into" their pump gun...
I've tried hard enough to lead this particular horse to water...
Yup, that's the problem. The slide action doesn't afford the shooter enough leverage to "crush fit" the cartridge into the chamber, so it doesn't fully close into battery. Using a small base die will fix that.
Seems like you're lying to yourself when you say this, since you've already said:
You wouldn't be sensitive to it when you run the slide forcefully. But as you said yourself, you "can't sneak a round in." That's a cartridge sizing problem, whether you're too ignorant to acknowledge it or not.
But there are plenty of fools who stick themselves into the mud at their own detriment and refuse to tamper with anything in their AR-15, or replace the fire control components of their Mark Series pistols, or try small base dies to help let them "sneak a round into" their pump gun...
I've tried hard enough to lead this particular horse to water...
09-24-2017, 11:19 AM
#16
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
I don't take this as an insult to my manhood. I am just not convinced some guy on the internet who is convinced he is right, is right.
If you read my posts, I am not convinced an empty rifle close easier.
The racking mechanism on a bolt and pump is worls apart. I am not convinced it can be an easier. But like I said, I would try some if I came across them.
I do find it hard to believe that remingtom corlockts don't fit well into a remington 760.
Myself, I got a pump, bolt, and lever. This year will be lever. Next you will tell me I can quitely load lever too.
If you read my posts, I am not convinced an empty rifle close easier.
The racking mechanism on a bolt and pump is worls apart. I am not convinced it can be an easier. But like I said, I would try some if I came across them.
I do find it hard to believe that remingtom corlockts don't fit well into a remington 760.
Myself, I got a pump, bolt, and lever. This year will be lever. Next you will tell me I can quitely load lever too.
09-25-2017, 02:33 PM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: WI&UP
Posts: 751
He is confident enough in his knowledge, for the both of us. But that does not make him automatically right, and others wrong.