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Perhaps it's a bit premature for this info, but how will it compare in cost?
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Very close in cost. There is actually one distributor that has the consumer line up for sale now. I am told most all pro ammo suppliers will eventually be carrying it. I teach a CCW class as well and I will probably shoot the Zink in every caliber. Its really clean ammo.
Leadlessammo: http://leadlessammo.com/
Originally Posted by 8mm/06
(Post 4260859)
Perhaps it a bit premature for this info, but how will it compare in cost?
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Interesting read. I still think it is not the wave of the future. And if it is that future is a long ways off. First off the demand. Second is sustainability. Third is is functionality. You may have had good results but I have tried GMX in every weight available to me and none of it shot worth a crap out of the three hunting calibers I have tried. I did pass on your review an another forum I am on, because I think it is an interesting read.
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I will not change to a non lead substitute for rifle and handgun ammo unless there is no choice. I have no choice for shotgun for waterfowl and some folks must use nontox shot on various state and federal land for small game. The prohibitive cost of nontox shotgun ammo is outrageous and I expect it will be the same for factory nontox rifle and handgun ammo. While the review here was interesting and thorough I would not expect a bad review from someone who works in the industry of making the lead substitute ammo. I am not saying it is not the truth, I am saying if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
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I understand your skepticism.
A quick background: I am a engineer and work with all kinds of ammo, not just leadless ammo. I work in all areas of the shooting industry these day. I get pre production firearms as well as all kinds of industry gear to R&D. I was a professional IPSC shooter years ago, been to many tactical schools. I am a instructor and teach many CCW classes and advise LE in tactical gear. As a hardcore bow/handgun hunter, I have been all around the country on hunts. I am about as well rounded as it gets in the industry.
Originally Posted by Oldtimr
(Post 4260886)
I will not change to a non lead substitute for rifle and handgun ammo unless there is no choice. I have no choice for shotgun for waterfowl and some folks must use nontox shot on various state and federal land for small game. The prohibitive cost of nontox shotgun ammo is outrageous and I expect it will be the same for factory nontox rifle and handgun ammo. While the review here was interesting and thorough I would not expect a bad review from someone who works in the industry of making the lead substitute ammo. I am not saying it is not the truth, I am saying if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
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That is a fine write up showing accuracy and reliability. But I don't see anything on terminal effectiveness. How about expansion and penetration performance. I'm with Oldtimr. No non-lead for me unless its mandatory. Even then I will fight it tooth and nail.
There is no legitimate reason to ban lead rifle/pistol ammo. Just more liberal BS being shoved down our throats. |
These are FMJ/NATO replacements and frangible training rounds. Terminal effectiveness is not a criteria for such ammo. Penetration on the Zink bullet has been shown to be greater than the standard 9mm 124fmj nato round. Enough so that it has created its own tactical niche. That's all I can say regarding that topic.
Originally Posted by bronko22000
(Post 4260917)
That is a fine write up showing accuracy and reliability. But I don't see anything on terminal effectiveness. How about expansion and penetration performance. I'm with Oldtimr. No non-lead for me unless its mandatory. Even then I will fight it tooth and nail.
There is no legitimate reason to ban lead rifle/pistol ammo. Just more liberal BS being shoved down our throats. |
Penetration and terminal effectiveness is what we want to see, being a Hunting site.
We don't need NATO approved ammo, if anything the exact opposite... |
What ^^^he said!!!
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Originally Posted by Mystro
(Post 4260918)
These are FMJ/NATO replacements and frangible training rounds. Terminal effectiveness is not a criteria for such ammo. Penetration on the Zink bullet has been shown to be greater than the standard 9mm 124fmj nato round. Enough so that it has created its own tactical niche. That's all I can say regarding that topic.
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While this writeup is of some importance to someone in my field (security/protection services) it really isn't the cup of tea needed here. Since this is primarily a hunting based site, most on here require data regarding penetration and terminal performance. Primarily from the rifle rounds. Or even price points for the bullets alone for those of us that reload. Since FMJ's are illegal in every state (at least I think every state bans them) for the use in big game hunting then so far the products you are advertising are of little to no use to most on here. As for me, the only steel I use is at 600 to 1200 yards away banging the gong so frag rounds aren't needed. As far as kill house fire, every one I and my folks trained in were ballistic walled with movable targets and we used live ammo. We sure as hell didn't use steel targets!! Never in all my years have I seen one that did. So I am really not seeing the purpose of the frang training rounds. If someone is absolutely stupid enough to shoot steel close range they dang well deserve to get rebound smacked! Frag rounds are for populated shooting where a pass through would be considered dangerous. Not so you can make pretty colors in a target range shooting steel close range.
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Not to question your experience level but there are many kill houses using steel targets all over the world. Frangible bullet delevolpmenti is for many applications you probably are not aware of. We supply and develop ammo for the military and LE, not to make pretty colors on steel targets.
Originally Posted by super_hunt54
(Post 4260938)
While this writeup is of some importance to someone in my field (security/protection services) it really isn't the cup of tea needed here. Since this is primarily a hunting based site, most on here require data regarding penetration and terminal performance. Primarily from the rifle rounds. Or even price points for the bullets alone for those of us that reload. Since FMJ's are illegal in every state (at least I think every state bans them) for the use in big game hunting then so far the products you are advertising are of little to no use to most on here. As for me, the only steel I use is at 600 to 1200 yards away banging the gong so frag rounds aren't needed. As far as kill house fire, every one I and my folks trained in were ballistic walled with movable targets and we used live ammo. We sure as hell didn't use steel targets!! Never in all my years have I seen one that did. So I am really not seeing the purpose of the frang training rounds. If someone is absolutely stupid enough to shoot steel close range they dang well deserve to get rebound smacked! Frag rounds are for populated shooting where a pass through would be considered dangerous. Not so you can make pretty colors in a target range shooting steel close range.
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Originally Posted by Mystro
(Post 4260946)
Not to question your experience level but there are many kill houses using steel targets all over the world. Frangible bullet delevolpmenti is for many applications you probably are not aware of. We supply and develop ammo for the military and LE, not to make pretty colors on steel targets.
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That was one of the topics that was removed from my review. We all work under NDF and I tried to generalize who was using our ammo and even that was required to be removed. You might be able to draw a educated guess by the required firearms for testing and that all calibers are designed to run in full auto and full auto suppressed platforms. Even our 50cal is designed to run in full auto.
I hang out and participate on the forums like everyone else mainly as a hunter on this forum but every now an then I will have a project I am working on that I can share some of the details. I get preproduction firearms to evaluate and even some of those companies require a NDF before the actual release of their products.
Originally Posted by jeepkid
(Post 4260960)
What military's and LE Agency's do you currently supply ammo to?
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Mystro
Thanks for your post. I am sure many here also shoot for other than hunting and new info is always good. |
Mystro,
If there are any of the products that YOU would deem appropriate for sporting use or self defense, even if they are not necessarily the best choice for the application, I'd be interested in you pointing that out. I'm also guessing that R&D is always tweaking things so something more in line with sporting and defense use may be in the offing. Thanks for the info. |
There is something coming up that is in the works for defense. It would be offered for LE and I "think" there maybe a consumer line. I don't know yet.
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I found two distributors that have some of these in stock. Looks like only a limited amount and calibers so far. Prices vary but one has them selling 9mm by the case. The price break down for 9mm is $9.25 a box of 50 with free shipping so unless this is a introductory price, Zclean will under sell most all quality FMJ.
I called Massammo of Friday and they already had a limited amount of the Zclean. So it looks like more and more distributors are getting the product. 9mm - 9mm - MassAmmo.com - - $12.99 Flat Rate Shipping on every order This distributor has some more calibers. Home - Leadless |
Here are a few LE dept that has adopted Zclean. Since this was publicly announced I can repeat it.
(source from "Police Weapons Magazine") 2 Major Florida Agencies Adopt National Police Ammunition (NPA) Z-Clean Ammunition - News - POLICE Magazine ![]() |
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