Do different cases matter?
 

Question, if I am shooting a 308 with a win case with a certain load and then switch to a different case say Remington and different primer with the exact same load at 100 yds will it change my accuracy?
Honestly sometimes I am just about ready to pull my hair out after a shooting session. I try to as constant as possible so could this be a problem?
Any help would be great.
Thx.

I have a large amount of Starline brass that I use specially for hunting rounds. Everything else gets thrown in a mixed brass pile for plinking. I never really cared if the mixed brass was as accurate or not. It is a matter of organization and consistency makes me operate this way.

You should know if the mixed brass is consistent if you shoot it enough. Maybe your accuracy issues are from other things, but you could try buying a large amount of the same brand of brass to keep things simpler.

One of the first things that a reloader should know is that you should not mix cases and/or primers. Everything should remain a constant and if you change any component you should start low with your powder charge and work up toward max as you watch for over pressure signs. What you are mentioning can certainly affect accuracy and is definitely not a recommended practice mainly for safety concerns.

The question has been answered, but yes, brand of case matters.

For plinking and 'normal range' hunting, I don't usually do this, but for long range shooting and competitive loads, I sort brass by weight - within the same brand. 'Theory' being the profile/cross section SHOULD be the same, but the weight difference illustrates a difference in thickness, which is a difference in chamber pressure by both obturation and by case volume.

Also important to keep track of number of loadings on a given brass. 10th loading brass will hold bullets (neck tension) very differently than virgin brass. Which is one benefit of annealing, man I wish I had a mechanical annealer!!!! :happy0001:

The general rule for reloading is to control EVERYTHING, make EVERYTHING consistent. - defaulting to safety. Brand of brass is included there. Granted, I'd be hard pressed to think that "normal" loads will ever cross a safety boundary just because you changed brand of brass, but MAX loads could. Changing primers DEFINITELY can cause a safety issue - new primer = entirely new load development.

Don't go cheap on brass.
Buy some new cases of a good make and start load development from there. One case separation will make this point better than all the words you could ever read here. Avoid that.

Don't use questionable brass or mix brands of brass, particularly when working at near max pressures.

Yes, at least sort your cases by brand. Also, brand of primer can make a difference. Did an experiment once with my most accurate rifle, a rebarreled Ruger tang safety in 7x57 mauser. Curious about difference a primer would make, I'd loaded at least 4 sets of ammo. Each 3 round set was the same, except for the primer.

Shot them all at same bullseye on a 100 yd target. When finished I'd created basically one hole that was about 1/2" wide and around 2 1/2" long. My mag primer had hit the highest on the target. Each primer set had hit in a different spot.

I believe for hunting purposes or if you're not loading to max powder charge it won't hurt. The reason I say this is that your accuracy will probably drop off using mixed case brands but not enough to substantially affect hunting accuracy (except at extreme ranges). Also, if you're loading below the max. recommended charge there is also no problems. (these charges are max for all cases) I've noticed when loading my .223 for my AR using mixed brass brands that there are some brands where the charge fills the entire case including the neck. These cases are discarded after spraying the primer with gun oil.

***IMHO this is basicly an irresponsible post when dealing with reloading that can result in injury or worse if a person does not follow the proper procedures. YOU may consider it no big deal, but to put out what you did and have a newbie reloader read it and then make a mistake is not right. One of the first things a reloader is told is to NOT mix components and to start low and work up each load when ANY changes are made to include brand of case, primer, bullet, and/or powder. To do anything other than that is just asking for trouble and all it takes is one mistake!

+10000 Well said Topgun!

Ditto on the kudos to Topgun. Good advise.

To paraphrase my Dad on the subject of using brass of questionable origin:
- go ahead and load that pick up brass if you want , but let me know before you touch one of them rounds off so I can get behind you -

I got his point.

Sorry but I'm calling BS on this. I am not talking mixing powders, bullets or primers. Cases are manufactured to SAAMI specs and reloading manuals have loads listed as starting loads and maximum loads. I realize that cases capacity varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but a max load is a max load regardless of case manufacturer. But that is also why I stated only if you are loading below max recommended charge. I see no reason why this is considered an irresponsible post. I've been loading for almost 50 years and I have never had an incident using mixed case brands for a specific load below a manual's listed maximum.
Now for the utmost in accuracy yes, mixing case brands will produce less accuracy due to the minor pressure differences.

call it what you want, brass is a mixture of copper and tin, do all manufacturers use the exact same percentage of tin, is all the tin and all the copper the exact same hardness? no 2 makes of brass will show the exact same pressure with the same load, federal brass has long been known to have 3% more case capacity than other brass of the same chambering, there is no way you can make the pressures and velocity the same using the same load. If you ever messed with any wildcats that have no saami specs and used different brass you would know what I'm talking about, but this is fact, Lapua is the best brass to be had, Winchester ain't bad IF IT WAS PROPERLY ANNEALED FROM THE FACTORY, Remington is decent brass but cheaper than the rest, norma weatherby and Dakota are also good, nosler is ok brass at lapua prices that won't handle pressure as well as Winchester.
It is what it is.
RR

I agree RR. But even brass chemical composition varies from lot to lot. What I am saying is that if you load below maximum charge listed in a loading manual (which even varies from manual to manual) the only "problem" you will encounter is a loss of accuracy. But for hunting except at extreme ranges is not that big a deal. There WILL be pressure differences with the same charge between brass manfs. but the pressures for all cases will be under the recommended allowed for the chambering.

how much under? basicly what your saying is they will go bang?
in some cases the pressure will be below minimum even with a midlevel load using slow burning powder which can be just as dangerous as an over pressure load. that's why its a good idea to constantly work uploads as you replace brass,and its a lot easier to keep the brass segregated into separate lots and makes, its also a good idea to keep each batch on the same number of firings, my 7mm AM using lapua brass makes higher and higher pressure each time the brass is fired until it gets above 3600 fps, then I anneal, its right back to 3510 fps then.
RR

Some people Just can't seem to think properly.

I just happened to have my Speer # 11 manual handy opened to the section for 243 loads.
At the very top are how they tested the loads in the book.
Rifle Ruger 77 barrel 22" twist 1-10
Cases WW, primers CCI 200 & 250
Way some have posted here that is what you need to use any of the loads for the 243 using the Speer #11 manual,. Can you use the rounds in a Winchester, Remington or any other brand. YES
Can you use other companies cases like federal, Remington or others with out fear YES
Can you use different brand of primers, YES
The Speer #11 manual list a starting load for every weight of bullet and a max load for every weight of bullet.
Case brand does not make one bit of difference as long as the recipes in the manual are followed because all information in the manual is universal which makes them safe in any brand of case. I also have been reloading since I cut my teeth on a old hull or case. 90% of the calibers I reload for are mixed cases.

So as long as you follow the manual you are safe with mixed cases.

Nice thing about the #11 Speer manual they use a real rifle to test the loads.
Some manuals they used a universal receiver to do the test. So you would look silly trying to hunt with a universal receiver because that is what to book says is safe.


:D Al

Been reloading since the early 1950s. All cases are not created equal. Case thickness is very important. Some cases are very thick (heavy). Reloading manuals specify a specific brand of cartridge case. If the data you are using was developed using a thinner case, you must be careful with heavy powder loads when using a different brand case.

Example: Other components being equal, you cannot safely load a maximum specified powder charge into a .308 case that is ten grains heavier than the case specified for the maximum load.

i have Excel charts of the average case weights of all brands for each caliber i reload for. Cases used for my accuracy loads are weighed and segregated by weight.

On the average, .30-06 Remington cases are 10 grains heavier than their Winchester counterpart. For my maximum .30-06 loads i use Winchester cases.

Sometimes i will load up plinking ammo using cases from several manufacturers with a light to moderate powder charge. BTW: They are usually quite accurate.

Be very careful when reloading 7.62 foreign military cases for use in the .308: Some are very thick.

falcon---I think we're talking to the wall on this as: "Some people just can't seem to think properly." as mentioned above!!!

OK non-believers let's look at the manuals. Take the .270 Win for example using IMR4350 (I selected a popular caliber and powder)
Speer #8: 130 gr Spitzer; Starting load 52 gr. Max 56.0 (Case Remington)
Lyman 46th ed: 130 gr Spitzer; starting load 49.0, Max 54.5 (Case Winchester)
Hornady Vol II: 130 gr Spire; Starting load 51.6, Max 57.6 (Case Western)
Sierra: 130 Spitzer; Starting load 48.4, Max 54.9 (Case Remington)

So based on my initial post of not loading to maximum charge. My favorite .270 load with 130 gr Hornady Interlock or Sierra Spitzer was 54.0 gr of IMR4350. This load is below the maximum charge for any 130 gr jacketed bullet using any case.
Ergo using mixed brands is not dangerous under these circumstances. The only thing that will suffer is a decrease in accuracy which will not be noticed unless shooting at extreme distances. This load with my Rem 700 which would shoot sub MOA all day long was responsible for killing a few whitetails at 300 yds, a couple antelope at 200 - 300 and one muley buck at 437 yds and I don't know how many whitetails at <100 yds.

1 at 437 and ya got it figured out, good for you.
RR

I am with Alleyyooper. The only difference in the heavy brass warnings is because the neck on Milspec brass is very thick and could "Choke" the bullet, and the primers are staked. Any good reloading manual should mention this. The original poster did say he switched primers. According to the old NRA Handloaders guide, this caused the biggest variation in accuracy. Way more than + or - a few grains of powder. This was tested by the Frankford Arsenal and published in the Handloaders guide. As far as good and bad brass, it is pretty much a matter of personal choice. I have made chamber reamers and the SAAMI specs on the body diameters of brass is generally .006-.008, but milspec brass is not to SAAMI specs (Maybe it is now, I have been out of it for a while). The military chamber headspace was not even called from the same points SAAMI used, and the European guns had their own specs also.

I use Lapua Cases, for my match grade reloads. I weigh each case, check the highest and lowest weights for load density/ case capacity.
Lapua is one of the most constant I have found. That is the case to case in a lot. Lots can and very a great deal.

I do not use mix cased for matches, for the reasons stated above. Different cases and the very slight differences does make a difference in shot to shot accuracy. But I do have mixed case ammo for plinking. All Max loads in the manuals are still well below what case manufactures build their cases to with stand. The cases may not be the best but they are all made using and within certain safety specs.

New Reloaders are people, and people make mistakes quite often when they don't even realize it's a problem. Around 6-7yrs ago I visited a friend to check out his new home, and I noticed his new reloading equipment. I saw some of his fired brass to be deprimed and half of them had flat primers, some torched out around the primers, and some had bulging at the case head. I asked why he was loading them so hot after seeing those pressure signs. He said he thought that the flattened primers and torches were because he must not know how to run his hand primer correctly and probably wasn't doing it right, and that he figured the few bulges - THAT HE HAD NOT NOTICED - were because he was using cheap brass.

Naturally, I asked what he was charging, he was WAY over max loads. When I asked why, his response was that his velocities on the chrony weren't getting to what the manual said, so he kept putting more powder in!!! He forgot to note that his barrel was 8" shorter than his manuals test barrel!!! Thank God it all held together for him!!

So let's talk in that context... New reloaders, God bless them, are ignorant. They're still learning. We've all been there.

So, say I'm a new reloader, and not knowing any better I heard from some dude on this forum that I can mix and match any brass. I have the Hornady manual and Winchester brass. Using your advice, I might find myself loading a 55.5grn load in my "load workup", which is 2 full grains under a max load, or a touch less than 4% under max. However, that 55.5grn load is a FULL GRAIN over the max load for the Winchester brass. Since I'm a new reloader, I only bought ONE manual, because some guy online said I only needed one (another recent thread), and I didn't realize that I was exceeding the max load for my particular case.

He11, let's make it even worse, another part of this thread said I could mix in different primers, and since there's a primer shortage going on, I couldn't find the WLR's that the Hornady manual suggested, but they had some WLRM's or maybe even some 9 1/2M's...

So now I'm using Winchester brass, specified as a standard rifle primer (whichever the 4th Lyman suggested) and a 54.5grn max load, and I'm running a magnum primer and a load that's a full grain over max!!!

What if I keep pushing my load development clear up to the max of 57.6grns, because I don't know what pressure signs look like yet?

Remember, in this scenario, consider the 100% new reloader, maybe even a new shooter. I don't know what sticky bolts mean, I don't know what a flattened primer looks like, 'cuz I don't really know what regular fired primers look like yet. So I'm going along, thinking I'm safe because I'm 2grns away from a max load...

We didn't even mix in different bullet profiles for the same description, or the seating depth! Even new reloaders have heard of VLD's, and what about the TTSX that's lead-free and knocking deer in the dirt all over the place? Say I put one of these "longer-than-normal" spire-point bullets seated to a COAL listed for a standard profile spire-point, meaning over seated, maybe even compressing my charge depending on the case, sitting on top of an OVER MAX LOAD and a MAGNUM PRIMER???

Or what if my bullet profile is off the other way, the ogive point is longer and I end up jamming the lands by 5 thou. Heck, a hard closing bolt only means that my once fired brass is perfectly formed to my chamber, right? So now I have a jammed bullet sitting on an over max load and an over-pressure primer...

Now what if I did my load workup and didn't have ANY Win brass in that bunch? I cooked it right up to the limit with this high pressure loads, maybe even decided that the flattened primers were flukes, instead of realizing they were happening in Rem brass, and NOT happening in the Western brass... Now I grab another range lot full of brass and load up a batch that DOES have Winchester brass included... So I have all of my load development that says my load was safe, those split Winchester cases sure are going to come as a surprise!

Your particular load came out at 54grn, which as you pointed out was safe in any brand of case. HOWEVER... That's you. You had all of those manuals to cross-reference and can be confident that a 54grn load will be safe with almost any spire point. But not all shooters/reloaders have that info. You're talking to a new reloader, and in a public forum with an eternal memory, such that OTHER new reloaders might find this information in the future.

Sure, you can work up any combination you like, but it might take a keen eye wrought from experience to determine when things are getting hairy. Inexperienced hands make mistakes, keeping components consistent across the board is one way to help mitigate some of those mistakes.

While I agree with most of what is been said and Nomercy's what if scenario's, the SAAMI specs for reloading books today have dropped off a solid 100 fps on almost every caliber listed. I have some older books 40+ years old that have some interesting load data. That being said knowing how to reload and using the right specs is going to be a lot more important than Remington vs Winchester brass. Because in the normal scenario's of reloading the SAAMI specs are not going to get you blown up. Now as mentioned before different powders, primers, bullets and seating depths might cause you issues if your new to the reloading world. There is a reason you should own a caliper and a powder scale while reloading. But what if your scale is not right and you don't know how to calibrate it? Some powders will vary +/- 2 grains through a powder measure if you don't throw the arm the same way and speed everytime. Some powders will do that regardless. Lots of variables, to the new guys I say stay well under max loads until you learn to play the game.

Saying all that I have stuck a bolt in a friends gun using my loads that work well in my rifle and are under max by 2.3 grains according to today's SAAMI specs. Chambers and actions also play variables on these scenario's. Do not put a friends reload in your rifle and do not load for other people unless you have the rifle in hand to test loads as you go. You truly need to work up loads for each individual rifle. Lots of variables folks lots of them. The cheaper the components, equipment and firearm usually brings out the most interesting results.

That sounds a bit sarcastic and isn't even worth commenting on. But just FYI I am not a newbie. I have been reloading since 1965. In my 30s I shot many NRA sanctioned matches back in the 80s including nationals where I was in the top 50. And I was probably using mixed brass then too.
Do what you want and I will continue to do what I want.

Most of you are mixing factual information with stupid people. When I started reloading, I got a reliable book and did some reading. The worst case described in the previous post shows a person that no amount of coaching or knowledge will help. It did not take me long to figure out there is a whole lot of rumor involved when you get a couple guys talking about reloading. If you can not read and comprehend, you should not be reloading. Reloading has caused way more problems than it ever solved. I can not even guess how many guns I worked on that were having problems that were directly related to reloading. The story usually starts with "My neighbor told me...".

And what happens when those people that CAN 'read and comprehend' go online and research... It's the 21st century remember, libraries are going out, apprenticeship and mentorship are a thing of the past, and people do all of their learning by asking questions online...

So they 'read and comprehend' online that EXPERIENCED RELOADERS are saying you can mix and match cases, any load data works with any bullet of a given weight and shape (i.e. all spitzers are created equal), and you can even mix and match primers... "Just as long as you're under the max load"...

The friend that I 'caught' overpressuring his rifle was a national level archery competitor and operates a multimillion dollar dirtwork company that he started while he was in high school by buying a Bobcat instead of a Trans Am with his car loan. "Stupid" he aint. Not some city kid or book-worm that didn't understand how to change his oil or thought his rifles were magic sticks that operated beyond his comprehension. He was just inexperienced and acknowledged it. He figured he was executing incorrectly or using inferior components, not that he was making a mistake on loads. A generation ago, a guy in his shoes would have had an uncle or neighbor or father, grandfather, etc who would have taught him the ropes. But for whatever reason, that older generation decided all of our generation don't deserve to get taught anything the way they were, so a lot of us got left to learn on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunplummer
If you can not read and comprehend, you should not be reloading.

And what happens when those people that CAN 'read and comprehend' go online and research... It's the 21st century remember, libraries are going out, apprenticeship and mentorship are a thing of the past, and people do all of their learning by asking questions online...

So they 'read and comprehend' online that EXPERIENCED RELOADERS are saying you can mix and match cases, any load data works with any bullet of a given weight and shape (i.e. all spitzers are created equal), and you can even mix and match primers... "Just as long as you're under the max load"...



***And that's exactly why I made my "irresponsible" comment and am sticking with it!

and stating that you can use any brass, bullet, primer as long as its under max in the book, is setting yourself up for failure, because all you lose is accuracy. why even hunt then? why risk being one of those stories when a hunter has a deer get away wounded, yet exclaim you aimed right behind the shoulder so that's where it had to been hit when all you lose is accuracy? any reloader who takes those kind of shortcuts (especialy when they have the experience you claim to have) should not be posting about it on public forums teaching new reloaders that being lazy with load development is ok. Just my opinion.
RR

^^^+1000 Sir!!!

Bet not one of ya follow the manual to the letter.

Some manuals information was developed with a test barrel and not a rifle. How many of you hunt with a test barrel?

Some manuals used a specific rifle brand and model. How many Use what the manual listed as the test rifle?

Yup just what I thought.

:D Al

manuals are nothing but guidelines, no 2 chambers even if they are cut with the same reamer runs the exact same pressure with the same loads.
do to liabilities involved max loads today are watered down, mainly due to many many inexperienced loaders not knowing how to determine pressure limits,
look at all the threads you see today, folks asking why their loads do this or do that, when the signs are obvious but they just don't see them or know what they are, you can only learn so much on the net, reading doesn't make experience.
I follow my rifle more than follow a manual. I can assure you brass makes a difference, I've saw some brass destroyed by low pressure fireform loads when others will take much higher pressure in stride. I do not recommend interchanging it. In my experience I would rather shoot 1.5 gr. above max in brass I work the load with then to shoot the max load in brass I haven't worked the load up with. worse thing that can happen is you lose accuracy, with unproven brass you could lose an eye.
RR

***Your comments have absolutely nothing to do with what one member has suggested regarding mixing components as long as a person is below the max powder listed for one particular load in a manual. Please find one manual that states that is a principle that can or should be followed in reloading. You won't because there isn't a manual out there that basicly says anything other than "don't mix components unless starting from scratch whenever a component is changed" and that includes cases! It's really a miracle there aren't a lot more accidents with some of the things you hear regarding reloading and a couple situations have already been mentioned in this thread that could have led to serious or fatal results. PS: This serious subject is nothing to be putting up smiley faces after your retorts that will only confuse a newbie to reloading!

I have to agree that not all load books are created equal. I would suggest the Hornady load books for beginners. The beginning of their books is full of information and explanations of what is going on in the chamber when a shooter pulls the trigger. There are warnings posted in the load pages about hot loads in certain rifle designs as opposed to what they used for a test rifle. There are warnings about using different bullet designs. (The original post was about mixing brass, not bullets.) I have made quite a few reamers in my time and the case body tolerance (SAAMI) is usually around .002. The ammo makers specs for the case body diameter is usually around .008. Add the headspace allowance to that and it really is pretty much. Other than the neck being too thick for the chamber that was cut, mixing good brass means nothing. "Good" meaning brass that was not fired 5 times already. I usually buy new brass, but still check every case before loading. I often find flaws in new brass. Years back I took .303 British brass and re-worked it into 6.5 Japanese brass. I cut one case each the long way and the .303 brass had a thicker wall down by the bottom. I did not see one bit of difference at the range with the same load. Anyway, what gave the "Newbee" the idea to shoot hot loads? I NEVER saw a load book that condoned shooting hot loads for accuracy. I bet he read it on an internet forum.