CCI Magnum Primers-Primers in General
#11
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 515
That's a lot more load development work than I'll generally take on. Testing what I consider the minimum number of rounds per step (10), and a minimum number of steps (5) for a given powder, that's 30 rounds per step with three different primers, for 150 rounds per powder. You have three different powders to try? That's 450 rounds JUST in load development - at least the way I work loads up.
To compare apples to apples, your wind and other environmentals need to stay the same, you can't let your eyes get tired, you can't let your barrel heat up or become any more fouled for the next shot than it was for the last, ...
I suggest you develop a load one powder/primer combination at a time. Once you know what your rifle likes in that powder, switch to another powder and do the same thing. Once you settle on a load in each powder - or maybe even eliminate a powder or two, then test different primers.
There's a limit to how much time and attention should be paid your reloading versus time and attention spent sending your reloads downrange, unless you're a dedicated BR shooter. You probably don't have enough measuring equipment yet to really tell much difference from one to the other. I easily have more money tied up in instrumentation than I do the basic press and tools that I use for reloading.
At this point, I think you need to get to reloading and not worry so much about splitting any more hairs than are absolutely necessary with primers.
To compare apples to apples, your wind and other environmentals need to stay the same, you can't let your eyes get tired, you can't let your barrel heat up or become any more fouled for the next shot than it was for the last, ...
I suggest you develop a load one powder/primer combination at a time. Once you know what your rifle likes in that powder, switch to another powder and do the same thing. Once you settle on a load in each powder - or maybe even eliminate a powder or two, then test different primers.
There's a limit to how much time and attention should be paid your reloading versus time and attention spent sending your reloads downrange, unless you're a dedicated BR shooter. You probably don't have enough measuring equipment yet to really tell much difference from one to the other. I easily have more money tied up in instrumentation than I do the basic press and tools that I use for reloading.
At this point, I think you need to get to reloading and not worry so much about splitting any more hairs than are absolutely necessary with primers.
#12
It is a lot of different options, but it seems like options are nice to have when reloading. It is hard to find stuff around where I live that the manuals provide. I was going to try 1 powder at a time and go from there and the only variable is the primer. I think I may need 1 or 2 more boxes of bullets lol.
hb definitely has a good, detailed load development system, but I think it is more than most hunting reloaders require. I've developed 3 shot sub moa (my hunting accuracy) loads for my .300 Weatherby with 3 different Barnes bullets. At $36+ per box of 50 Barnes bullets, with hb's system it would cost $324 just for the bullets. Add the cost of powder, primers, and at least 100 cases, and the total cost would be about $600 just for load development!
My reloads certainly aren't competition bench rest accuracy, but they have served me very well for many years of hunting and my load developments have only used about 1/4 of the number of shots.
#13
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 515
Yeah I did notice that. I just have to think a way to mange bullets. If these 115 TSX work I get them for 30 bucks. I'm not sure how many of each cartridges I'll make yet? Certainly 10 bullets would be a lot to try I would think for each grain, for example 10 cartridges in 64 grains, 10 in 65 grains, etc. Either it will work or it won't. I don't think 10 shots would make a difference compared to 5? I guess I should rename this thread to load progression suggestions! Again it is for a hunting round(max range would be around 100(average) my Wyoming trips can get up to 200-250, but that's once a year or once every other year.
Last edited by JGFLHunter; 02-17-2014 at 02:39 PM.
#14
The .223 uses small rifle primers. Don't know how close you are, but Academy Sports on the corner of Kernan blvd and Atlantic blvd has Winchester small rifle primers. I find this odd because they don't sell any reloading supplies. The primers are with the black powder supplies, they're on an endcap across from the cash register at the gun counter.
#15
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 515
The .223 uses small rifle primers. Don't know how close you are, but Academy Sports on the corner of Kernan blvd and Atlantic blvd has Winchester small rifle primers. I find this odd because they don't sell any reloading supplies. The primers are with the black powder supplies, they're on an endcap across from the cash register at the gun counter.
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: WY
Posts: 2,056
It's easy to put a lot more work and worry into reloading than is practically necessary. The longer the ranges you're shooting at, the more attention needs to be paid, not only to your ammunition, but also to your rifle, optics, fundamentals, ...
Realistically, even a 1-inch group at 100 yards is likely going to fill the freezer at 250. But, you have the opportunity to narrow that if you can, at least as far as your ammunition is concerned.
Yes, 10 rounds per step gets to being an investment, particularly when components aren't cheap or as readily available anymore. That number is based on being able to shoot at least two five-round groups. Over the years, I've found three-round groups to be a mediocre if not poor indicator of consistency and reliability. Many are perfectly happy shooting three-round groups, and that's your option of course. Think of it as your sample size as it's applied statistically. Most of us know when we've thrown a flyer even before we check the target. With three rounds, it's awfully difficult to really measure a group when we're looking at two holes with a third somewhere else on the target.
I generally shoot one five-round group per step on the same day. Measure, chronograph, recording environmentals. Because I live where the conditions are never the same from day-to-day (Wyoming), I'll shoot a second five-round group on a different day under different environmentals. I've found a couple loads that are great for prairie dogs in the summer, but not so great on coyotes in the winter. That rifle now has "summer" and "winter" loads tailored to it.
On the other hand, rifles of which I don't expect such precise accuracy (an elk being larger than a prairie dog) I don't spend as much time on load development. If my .30-06, .300 Wby, .338 WM, or .375 H&H go into an inch at 100 yards, I'm pretty comfortable they'll do the job at 250 as well. 250 yards is a very reasonable number out here.
Put some loads together. See what they do.
Realistically, even a 1-inch group at 100 yards is likely going to fill the freezer at 250. But, you have the opportunity to narrow that if you can, at least as far as your ammunition is concerned.
Yes, 10 rounds per step gets to being an investment, particularly when components aren't cheap or as readily available anymore. That number is based on being able to shoot at least two five-round groups. Over the years, I've found three-round groups to be a mediocre if not poor indicator of consistency and reliability. Many are perfectly happy shooting three-round groups, and that's your option of course. Think of it as your sample size as it's applied statistically. Most of us know when we've thrown a flyer even before we check the target. With three rounds, it's awfully difficult to really measure a group when we're looking at two holes with a third somewhere else on the target.
I generally shoot one five-round group per step on the same day. Measure, chronograph, recording environmentals. Because I live where the conditions are never the same from day-to-day (Wyoming), I'll shoot a second five-round group on a different day under different environmentals. I've found a couple loads that are great for prairie dogs in the summer, but not so great on coyotes in the winter. That rifle now has "summer" and "winter" loads tailored to it.
On the other hand, rifles of which I don't expect such precise accuracy (an elk being larger than a prairie dog) I don't spend as much time on load development. If my .30-06, .300 Wby, .338 WM, or .375 H&H go into an inch at 100 yards, I'm pretty comfortable they'll do the job at 250 as well. 250 yards is a very reasonable number out here.
Put some loads together. See what they do.
#17
Wow really!? Thanks for the heads up. Im about 30 minutes from there so I will definitely have to get there and check it out. Are they 100 or 1000? Thanks for the heads up. I dislike getting things at Green Acres, they are such a rip off. They have small rifle match primers for 90 bucks, no thanks. 100 count primers for 10 bucks! get Real. Powder is expensive but not too much that I wouldn't pay for it as I got some there, but sometimes you have to give in every now and then.
#18
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 515
They only have the 100 packs for $3.99, there were 20 packs on the shelf Saturday. They tear the top flap off the 1000 count box and put a price tag on each sleeve, if you want to buy 1000 there's no discounted price so it would be $39.90 which isn't too bad. Since you're getting in to reloading Academy has a large selection of MTM and Plano plastic ammo boxes, 50 round rifle and 100 round pistol for $3.99 each. They also have a large selection of ammo on the shelf. I forget the brand but there was a bunch of steel case .223's for $5.99 a box.
#19
Those 100 packs are good if you're just working up a hunting round for a deer rifle, but they will go quickly if you're shooting an AR. I buy bullets by the thousand and I can make 100 rounds for under $20. I started casting bullets for my other rifles in order to help keep costs down. Even with the cost of buying gas checks, I can load 100 rounds of 30-30 or 30-06 for just $14. I like going to the range at least once a week and reloading lets me do that.
#20
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: n.e. of Houston, Tx
Posts: 21
Viewed about 9 bullseyes shot by a fellow range member with one of his more accurate rifles. He'd removed the threaded muzzle brake on the rifle and made a new end piece for the threaded end of the barrel. He was playing around with reloads to compare velocities between those shot with a muzzle brake and those w/o it. He always chronographs his shots.
Anyway, he showed me the nine 100 yd bullsyes he'd shot. Only difference in his reloads that day was the primer. Different primer for each bullseye and 4 rounds fired at each one. While the groups on his 8 bullseyes were all decent, there was a noticeable difference in them. Each kind primer also provided a different range of velocity.
Darn if I can remember all the brands of large primers used but about the only one he'd didn't use was the Federal Gold Medal bench rest one, did have the std Federal primer. Had other brand benchrest type, magnum and standard primers.
So, his test showed a primer did make a difference for him anyway. I'd done a similiar test some time ago, but used maybe half the kind of primers he'd used. For me, after shooting 3 rounds with maybe 5 different primers, I had a 1/2-3/4" wide hole maybe 2 1/2 or so inches long on my 100 yd target. Each primer had hit at a different spot on my target.
Anyway, he showed me the nine 100 yd bullsyes he'd shot. Only difference in his reloads that day was the primer. Different primer for each bullseye and 4 rounds fired at each one. While the groups on his 8 bullseyes were all decent, there was a noticeable difference in them. Each kind primer also provided a different range of velocity.
Darn if I can remember all the brands of large primers used but about the only one he'd didn't use was the Federal Gold Medal bench rest one, did have the std Federal primer. Had other brand benchrest type, magnum and standard primers.
So, his test showed a primer did make a difference for him anyway. I'd done a similiar test some time ago, but used maybe half the kind of primers he'd used. For me, after shooting 3 rounds with maybe 5 different primers, I had a 1/2-3/4" wide hole maybe 2 1/2 or so inches long on my 100 yd target. Each primer had hit at a different spot on my target.