Youth Rifle, 243 or 7mm08?
 

Will be buying my 5 year old son a youth Savage rifle in the next couple of weeks. I always felt a 243 loaded properly is a deer killing machine. I noticed the same rifle can be had in 7mm08, a personal favorite. Full power 7'08 isn't an option for his small frame. I came across this reduced load data using H4895:

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf

I assume the reduced 7'08 would be in the same recoil range as the full boat 243. The biggest advantage to the 7'08 is that as he grows it will give more versatility. I look forward to your feedback.

I would go with a 7mm/08. I have a model seven youth in 7mm/08. My cousins boy been using his model seven in 7mm/08 for the past 3 years and haven't had a problem killed a hand full of dear and a bear with it. My model seven will be used by my 8 year old nephew next year. I will use my current load of rem 140 grain corelocks in it for him. My cousins son or his 243, 6mm and 7mm/08 and liked the 7mm/08 the best he uses 139 hornady sst. I feel the recoil is not noticeable more in a 7mm/08 then a 243. Remington also makes a managed recoil load in 7mm/08.http://remington.com/products/ammuni...ed-recoil.aspx

He is to small for full load 7'08. I thought about the Remington managed recoil ammo but figure I already have brass and dies for both, could just load down the 7'08. I don't think a deer would know the difference. I've always tried to keep the 243 off the shoulder, with 7'08, doesn't matter.

also shoot lighter bullets, the nosler 120 BT is an awesome deer bullet at 7mm/08 velocities.
RR

As unofficial cheerleader for the 7/08 I chime in on its behalf.
It's not a "starter" caliber but can be loaded so as to be very user friendly to a beginner until he/she is ready to move up in power level.

I was looking at the 120s in both NBT and Sierra Pro Hunter. I found this recoil calculator and figure I can push the 120s at 2600 out of the 7'08 and have similar recoil to the 243 pushing 100s at 2900. I think I'm gonna go 7'08 for his first centerfire.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

An excellent choice. I don't think a deer would notice the difference but like you said the 7-08 is a bit more versatile and will handle slightly bigger game later on.
What model rifle did you decide on? I purchased the Savage 16 youth model in 7-08 for my grandson for when he comes of age. I shot it and I love it. I have shot 5 shot groups as small as 3/8" with 154 gr bullets with that little rifle.

Gonna be a Savage 11 youth. Have never been a huge Savage fan until I got a really good deal on an 11 FCNS in 243 with Leupy mounts, Zeiss Conquest and less than a box of ammo through it for $500. Gun will hold both 100 gr Sierras and Speers to 3/4 MOA for 5 shots, not to shabby.

wayspr
at 2600 fps the 120 BT will act much like a nosler partition, nosler uses the same jacket cup for the 120's as it does the 140's so it ends up with a thicker jacket. think you made a good choice.
RR

I don't think you can go wrong with either caliber...both cals will provide anyone a lifetime of deer hunting and both have great bullet options available. The 7/08 certainly has a slight edge though with availability of heavier bullets and as RR points out, the 120 BT is a great bullet when pushed at slower speeds...not many bullets have that level of versatility.

the 120 BT is my bullet of choice for deer hunting with my 7mm/08 savage 99, the hornady 120 gr spire point ain't bad either.
RR

I use the 140 corelocks in both my 7/08 a model seven and a 700 mountain rifle. Most don't move most go less then 30 yards.

Full power 7'08 loads aren't an option for a 50 lb 5 year old.

Me personal think 5 is too young to hunt with a rifle. I would let him practice with a smaller caliber gun. But that's my opinion.

I agree, thats why he isn't in the woods this year. He is pretty good shootin soda cans with a 22 and pellet gun. By next season he'll have enough trigger time to consisitently place the bullet where it has to be or he won't be shootin at critters.

Start with a 243. There is far more hunting and shooting of varmints and it can be all year too!

My late dad got me my first centerfire (and handloading outfit) when I was 14 Y.O.

Sounds like you have it figured out! I was pretty small when I started out at 5 back in the early 50s with a 22/410 O/U and took one of the first NRA hunter safety courses ever offered where I lived in Indiana. After getting my feet wet for a couple years I moved up to a 20 gauge, then a 12 gauge, and then on to centerfire rifles. Either a .243 or the 7mm-08 are good starters with reduced loads in the latter. If he's going to be hunting anything bigger than deer, I'd go with the 7mm-08. If not, a .243 should do fine for him.

Can use the 7mm/08 for bandits especially if you are going to use 120 nosler bt. I started out shooting a 222 to get used to a centerfield but not a lot of recoil.

I started my son with a 243 even though he had shot the 7-08 a couple times. I hand load a sierra 85gr. HPBT game king over a load or 4350 to about 2800FPS. It does a great job on any thing from crows to bang flop deer, very nice coyote round too.

:D Al

I started my son on a .243 at age 8. For the last 8 yrs I've watched him knock down everything that has come across his path with that gun with 100gr core locks. 7mm-08 is a very nice round for sure, but I'd lean towards the .243...especially for the young ones.

And, at one time in my life I would have argued to the death that a .243 was no where near enough gun....boy was I wrong. Maybe if you are elk hunting, but for whitetails out to distances that most folks will shoot...plenty of gun, imo.

In my opinion and what I have seen a 243 is not a youth rifle to much could go wrong and I feel the bigger bullet of the 7mm/08 is better. An average 8 year old can not noticeable tell the difference between a 243 and a 7/08. I know man th people that hunt with 243, but the deer they shoot all run a good ways. Most of the young hunter I know
all use 7/08.

.243 not a good rifle for a youth? Not sure I understand that one, but certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I can only tell you from my experience...my son has shot 13 with his, all are dead...most died within 30-50yds. A couple fell on the spot. He did have a couple that went about 75yds, running dead.

Deer running off too far is usually indicative of either poor shot placement, or poor bullet performance. Not the caliber. I've seen guys with .300 mags have deer run more than 100yds...it wasn't the caliber.

My opinion is you should use the biggest gun you can van dam, the animal deserves the respect to be killed quickly and cleanly. I feel the more energy of the 7/08 is a better choice for a young hunter. You never know if the animal will move right when you shoot anything can happen. I agree and animal can run with the biggest guns with poor.shot placement. But don't you feel a big gun gives you the advance. Yes practices so you can make the good shots. But in hunting anything can happen.

Deer don't run any farther from a 243 than a 7'08. Last weekend I shot a nice 7 pt with a 243, fell where he stood. Only advantage in my opinion is if you hit the shoulder. Bigger bullet has more momentum to help ensure good penetration. If I like the 243 so much, why have I decided to go 7'08? Pretty simple, he's a kid, can't guarantee he'll keep it off the shoulder. Hell, can't promise I'll make a perfect shot every time either.

These conversations always make me laugh...

I bought a .243 in 1980, when I was a youth (20)...I'm now 58, and have killed well over 200 deer with it, losing 2 during that time...I'm also 6ft 5 and weigh 240, nobody tells me that it's for "smaller" hunters... :)

The .243 is one heck of a deer rifle, I've killed too many to be told different...

My 2 brothers and their grown sons have .270s, a 7mm-08 and a .280...They all kill deer, how quickly is dependent upon where the bullet is put...Frankly my deer go down quicker than those shot by my brothers or my nephews, know why???? It's because I use that .243 year round for crows, groundhogs, coyotes, whatever...I can shoot the dang thing and put the bullet where I want to because of familiarity with the gun and practice...

In the end, that is what is most important... :)

Nchawkeye, well freakin said. Put the bullet where it belongs and the critter will die. Don't, no super duper whiz bang magnum gonna help you. Why did Jack O Connor like his 270 so much? Because it's light recoil helped him put the bullet where it had to go.

Yes bullet placement is the key. But screw up a and that small bullet could result in a lost animal. Yes I killed deer with a 243. I just think using a bigger caliber if you can handle it is will advised. How does recoil help a bullet get where it needs to go. I can see where light recoil help you get back on target faster, but not with aiming. Yes there has been tons of deer killed with a 243, but I like the 7/08 better.

My opinion is the .243 all day every day. My wife has shot the Savage youth .243 for three years now with a Nikon 3x9x40. A 100 grain box of Remington Express core lok are available at any Wal Mart or any other place that sells ammo for 19 dollars. That little gun will hold 1 MOA at 100 yards with cheap ammo and she dropped a 170 pound 8 point in its tracks at 168 yards last year with a shoulder shot. What’s not to like. I believe in the KISS method.

Recoil doesn't help ya put the bullet where it needs to be but it sure as hell can prevent you from putting it there. Guys and kids shootin guns that kick to much for em tends to lead to poor shot placement. A gun that is pleasant to shoot tends to lead to less nerves when it comes time to pull the trigger.

Bbj270.... I hear ya man. I'm telling you if we could go back 20yrs, what you wrote would have been exactly what I would have said. Literally, word for word. And I would have argued to the death that I was right. Now, 20yrs and a ton of deer later, I don't feel that way.

The good thing, we both are right because we can shoot what we want. You take the 7mm-08, I'll take the .243 and we'll both have dead deer...well, at least I know I will. LOL, just kidding :D

And to answer the recoil question...recoil can sometimes create an anticipation flinch - which can lead to an bad shot. This is especially true with the big calibers. I know a couple folks that own them and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn due to being unconsiously scared of thier gun. Not that 7mm-08 has a ton of recoil, but you get the picture. It only takes getting busted in the eye or nose one time for someone to potentially become a terrible shot.

If you fellows would quit flinching and shooting them in the guts, you wouldn't have any problems... :)

I grew up shooting squirrels, in the head with an open sighted .22...Never had a problem killing deer...The hunters that show up at our camp with the big bores are the ones who can't shoot and we end up tracking their deer...

I've never shot a deer in the guts with my .243 or any other gun, I guess those that do, need a bigger gun.... :)

Like I said 2800FPS 85gr. HPBT bang flop from crows to deer and all those whistle pigs coyotes coons and possums. At one time many years ago My brother and a cousin used them on snow shoe hare across valleys in clear cut in march when the snow was melting. Only target was the shiny black eye.

:D Al

well then as many times as I've worn the badge "magnum eyebrow" then I'll never kill another deer!
heck I use to shoot a 25" barreled 10 ga with a scope off a bench that actualy rattled my teeth loose, reckon my shootin days are over, anybody wanna buy a couple junk rifles?
RR

Come on RR...

You know I'm not saying that happens to everyone or even most people, but becoming recoil shy is very real, and young kids can be affected easily. I know several guys that are adults that have had issues with it over the years, one took several years to get over it after being busted hard 2 times with a .300 wby.

I still stand by my choice of .243 as a great rifle for kids, (and also adults.) To say its not, well that just doesn't jive with reality. Certainly there are other great rifles too...but just because they are bigger, doesn't automatically mean they will do better.

And btw... I shoot a single shot full choke 36" barrel 10ga w 3.5's for turkey...I can relate to the teeth rattling. It comes straight back, right now. But boy does it put a hurting on the other end :D

you've never heard me complain about the 243, heck I own 2, though I prefer the 6mm.
RR

I agree the 6mm rem is a good choice. I own all 3, 243, 6mm, 7/08. I will and will also pick the 7/08 out of those 3. I know of a lot of deer killed with the 6mm in my part of wv. Those where manly in remington 742.

If only you were left handed....;)

I have 5 243's in the safe...2 of which are my 55# 9 year old daughters...she started shooting a 243 when she was a 45# 6 year old and has hunted with a Weatherby Vanguard in .243 for 3 seasons now. My niece also hunts with a Vanguard in 243 as well...and over the past 3 seasons I have watched these 2 girls take over half-a-dozen deer and 2 caribou with 243's pushing 100g Nosler Partitions...all of those animals have been DRT except for one, that ran all of 40 yards...shot placement, not horsepower kills deer in their tracks...If you hit a deer poorly with that 33-378 Weatherby...it's gonna run, and run a long ways!

Here is my daughter with this years buck...a nice 112" 8 point taken at 106 yards with a 243..."bang flop"...1 shot!

Great picture!

I AM!




LOL
RR