precision reloading....
02-25-2010, 02:38 PM
#1
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
precision reloading....
i have a buddy that is schooling me in reloading...hes done well as ive shot some nice groups from my whelen already with my own handloaded ammo...
as soon as the weather breaks, im going to start working on my 22-250. i want to squeeze out every bit of accuracy i can....
buddy recommended a hornady OAL gauge and a bullet comparator...i understand their uses...he also recommended a redding competition bullet seating die...hes a BR shooter and knows his stuff and knows that i wanna cut serious holes with the rifle...
but when using a bullet comparator, arent you ALWAYS adjusting the bullet seating die to reach the magic OAL you want?? or am i missing something?? i know good bullets wont vary at the ogive like they do on total length...i measured my OAL of my whelen loads, and due to bullet differences in the tip etc, my OAL was different, therefore effecting accuracy...
i understand all that...and think i got it right...
but with a bullet comparator, your always adjusting your seating die for each bullet multiple times till you hit that magic number? or am i missing something??
also, the OAL gauge, hows that help with accuracy?? i understand it tells you where your bullet meets the bore or whatever...but different guns and loads like seated different distances of the lands...so hows it helpful to use an OAL guage??
thanx guys....id ask the buddy...but i picked his brain...i dont wanna loose him as a coach with some minor/silly questions...
as soon as the weather breaks, im going to start working on my 22-250. i want to squeeze out every bit of accuracy i can....
buddy recommended a hornady OAL gauge and a bullet comparator...i understand their uses...he also recommended a redding competition bullet seating die...hes a BR shooter and knows his stuff and knows that i wanna cut serious holes with the rifle...
but when using a bullet comparator, arent you ALWAYS adjusting the bullet seating die to reach the magic OAL you want?? or am i missing something?? i know good bullets wont vary at the ogive like they do on total length...i measured my OAL of my whelen loads, and due to bullet differences in the tip etc, my OAL was different, therefore effecting accuracy...
i understand all that...and think i got it right...
but with a bullet comparator, your always adjusting your seating die for each bullet multiple times till you hit that magic number? or am i missing something??
also, the OAL gauge, hows that help with accuracy?? i understand it tells you where your bullet meets the bore or whatever...but different guns and loads like seated different distances of the lands...so hows it helpful to use an OAL guage??
thanx guys....id ask the buddy...but i picked his brain...i dont wanna loose him as a coach with some minor/silly questions...
02-25-2010, 02:59 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not really understanding your question. You use a comparitor instead of OAL (tip). Thats it.
You adjust the OAL based off the ogive instead of the tip, and note down the optimal length from the rim to the ogive as it says with your calibers with the comparitor. You set you seating down up to load the bullet to match that number and it doesn't change much.
Accuracy is not based off of tip, but when the bullet meets the rifling (ogive). If you go to the range and find 3.6" OAL for your 300RUM is optimal, and then setup your seater with the first bullet to reach 3.6", and then lock down you seater, you could go back thru the bullets and find they vary in OAL greatly. Your seater plug should be loading the bullet on the ogive not pushing on the tip.
But if you go to the range and find out that 3.85" according to your comparitor/calibers is optimal. Then you setup your first bullet to be 3.85 according to the comparitor, then go back thru all your loads, all should be 3.85"
You adjust the OAL based off the ogive instead of the tip, and note down the optimal length from the rim to the ogive as it says with your calibers with the comparitor. You set you seating down up to load the bullet to match that number and it doesn't change much.
Accuracy is not based off of tip, but when the bullet meets the rifling (ogive). If you go to the range and find 3.6" OAL for your 300RUM is optimal, and then setup your seater with the first bullet to reach 3.6", and then lock down you seater, you could go back thru the bullets and find they vary in OAL greatly. Your seater plug should be loading the bullet on the ogive not pushing on the tip.
But if you go to the range and find out that 3.85" according to your comparitor/calibers is optimal. Then you setup your first bullet to be 3.85 according to the comparitor, then go back thru all your loads, all should be 3.85"
02-25-2010, 03:12 PM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
If you are shooting a factory gun a lot of what you're concerned with isn't going to make that much difference. Also a lot of what you're asking is why he told you to get a comp seater die. Yes, the seating depth will change on every bullet because of variance in ogive's. as a bench rest shooter your buddy is probably seating every bullet to within a .001" This isn't as hard as it may sound, with a comp seater seat all your bullets out a little, then go through and measure them with your bullet comp. seperate your cases by the depth of the bullet then start at the lower end by seating to the exact depth with all those cases, move onto the next which will probably only be another .001" difference so move your seater down .001" and do those, and so on. This will ensure the amount of jump or jam to or into the riffling is the exact same evey time. It takes a little more time but if you have done everything possible to eliminate loading errors you can focus soley on technique and not have to wonder what if I would have seated every bullet to the exact same depth. I once heard a guy who frequents this forum say at a match "A .001" here and a .001" there but with one little puff of wind it's all out the door" Keep working to make the most perfect loads you can then when you spend the money on that custom rifle you'll enjoy it htat much more!
02-25-2010, 06:11 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Garfield NJ USA
Posts: 3,067
06, I don't think that you'll be able to seat the bullets out far enough to come close to the rifling and still fit in the magazine on your 7600. Every bullet will give you different COL, you could also try the old fashioned way of partially seating a bullet in the case and then chamber it the rifling will push it back into the case, then back off .0020.
02-25-2010, 09:18 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
thanx guys...that cleared it up....im pretty much brand new to reloading and was overthinking the whole deal...but it all makes sense now...thats why i figured id pick y'alls brains and try to leave my buddy thats helpin me alone...hes gotta have a headache! lol
thndr, its not for the 7600....im about done with that project.... 0.75" at 100yds is plenty fine for that rifle..i just gotta make sure it wasnt a fluke and i'll stick with that load...this is for a m700 22-250...
i know a custom rifle will do just as much for shooting as a great load...but right now i have the ability to work up a great load...so im gunna start there...do i really need to shoot ragged hole groups?? not really...but do i want to? who doesnt?? its my groundhog gun...that 1" flyer at 100yds is a missed groundhog at 400yds...thats how i look at it...yes im going to spend a little more than you would to work up your typical loads...but, accuracy is never cheap...that i know...
i bought the m700 for an out of the box shooter...and that it is..ive fired multiple sub-moa groups at 100yds with it and factory ammo already...a good handload worked up, and a trigger job, and i think i'll see very good shooting from it...but i bought the m700 for an out of the box shooter that i can customize as i go and grow as a shooter and want more out of it...right now, a good load will tighten groups and give more consistent groups...those 1" flyers from inconsistent brass, and loading processes etc make a great group into a bad group..and like i said, thats a missed groundhog at 400yds..
and lets not get into if i wanted a 400yd groundhog gun i shoulda went bigger, ive done 350 with it on more than one occassion...
right now, im no competetion shooter or anything...but i think im slowly working towards it...just taking the scenic route to get there...the more i learn workin with my hunting gun, which is a gun i use regular, the better i become at shooting and loading and everything...
thndr, its not for the 7600....im about done with that project.... 0.75" at 100yds is plenty fine for that rifle..i just gotta make sure it wasnt a fluke and i'll stick with that load...this is for a m700 22-250...
i know a custom rifle will do just as much for shooting as a great load...but right now i have the ability to work up a great load...so im gunna start there...do i really need to shoot ragged hole groups?? not really...but do i want to? who doesnt?? its my groundhog gun...that 1" flyer at 100yds is a missed groundhog at 400yds...thats how i look at it...yes im going to spend a little more than you would to work up your typical loads...but, accuracy is never cheap...that i know...
i bought the m700 for an out of the box shooter...and that it is..ive fired multiple sub-moa groups at 100yds with it and factory ammo already...a good handload worked up, and a trigger job, and i think i'll see very good shooting from it...but i bought the m700 for an out of the box shooter that i can customize as i go and grow as a shooter and want more out of it...right now, a good load will tighten groups and give more consistent groups...those 1" flyers from inconsistent brass, and loading processes etc make a great group into a bad group..and like i said, thats a missed groundhog at 400yds..
and lets not get into if i wanted a 400yd groundhog gun i shoulda went bigger, ive done 350 with it on more than one occassion...
right now, im no competetion shooter or anything...but i think im slowly working towards it...just taking the scenic route to get there...the more i learn workin with my hunting gun, which is a gun i use regular, the better i become at shooting and loading and everything...
02-26-2010, 02:27 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Audubon & Red Rock, Penna.
Posts: 4,472
As a new reloader, I'm guessing that you're going to get some satisfactory groups just from getting the case, primer, powder and bullet combo just right. With a good gun, I'll bet you can get half inch groups right there.
In my opinion, adjusting the seating die over and over again for different bullets will become a headache fast.
I would work with a few bullets and powder combos. Decide which bullet shoots the best. Then adjust your die for that bullet's perfect seating depth. Then lock the seating die and never touch it again
In my opinion, adjusting the seating die over and over again for different bullets will become a headache fast.
I would work with a few bullets and powder combos. Decide which bullet shoots the best. Then adjust your die for that bullet's perfect seating depth. Then lock the seating die and never touch it again
02-26-2010, 05:25 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Garfield NJ USA
Posts: 3,067
22-250 for Ghogs, I'd say a good starting point would be the 55 gr Ballistic tip or Vmax. Both will fly flat with extreme terminal performance for as far as you can shoot.
38 gr of H380 is what put the 22-250 on the map. My buddy loads 3031 in his, can't tell you what the charge is though. Nosler's 5'th shows 39.5 gr of H380 as the fastest load and best accuracy.
38 gr of H380 is what put the 22-250 on the map. My buddy loads 3031 in his, can't tell you what the charge is though. Nosler's 5'th shows 39.5 gr of H380 as the fastest load and best accuracy.
Last edited by thndrchiken; 02-26-2010 at 05:28 AM.
02-26-2010, 08:19 AM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
im actually going to start with 50s....
my rifle seemed to like 50s better than 55s...i shot 55s ALOT...(factory ammo though..)
i was in a jam and couldnt find the 55gr ballistic tips anywhere so had to order them...ghog huntin was at its prime...i NEEDED ammo...i bought a 40rd value pack of 50grJHP UMC junk...that is the ammo that shot sub-moa groups if you believe that....i couldnt...so i had to do it several more times lol...
so im going to start with 50gr NBTs....my buddy actually loaded for someone elses SPS like mine and it really liked Varget so i was going to start with it...i dont know hardly anything about powders....for the whelen i went with RE15 just because it seemed to be the most popular for it....
got to get my stuff in line for that soon...but i wont be shooting till its warmer out...no sense in workin up a load in the cold for a rifle that is shot in extreme heat....id imagine if i was real close to a max in the cold of winter, i could potentially blow up on a 90 degree day in August...and accuracy now is likely going to be different than it is when its warmer...so i wont mess around till the weather breaks...
my rifle seemed to like 50s better than 55s...i shot 55s ALOT...(factory ammo though..)
i was in a jam and couldnt find the 55gr ballistic tips anywhere so had to order them...ghog huntin was at its prime...i NEEDED ammo...i bought a 40rd value pack of 50grJHP UMC junk...that is the ammo that shot sub-moa groups if you believe that....i couldnt...so i had to do it several more times lol...
so im going to start with 50gr NBTs....my buddy actually loaded for someone elses SPS like mine and it really liked Varget so i was going to start with it...i dont know hardly anything about powders....for the whelen i went with RE15 just because it seemed to be the most popular for it....
got to get my stuff in line for that soon...but i wont be shooting till its warmer out...no sense in workin up a load in the cold for a rifle that is shot in extreme heat....id imagine if i was real close to a max in the cold of winter, i could potentially blow up on a 90 degree day in August...and accuracy now is likely going to be different than it is when its warmer...so i wont mess around till the weather breaks...
02-26-2010, 11:19 AM
#9
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 260
im actually going to start with 50s....
my rifle seemed to like 50s better than 55s...i shot 55s ALOT...(factory ammo though..)
i was in a jam and couldnt find the 55gr ballistic tips anywhere so had to order them...ghog huntin was at its prime...i NEEDED ammo...i bought a 40rd value pack of 50grJHP UMC junk...that is the ammo that shot sub-moa groups if you believe that....i couldnt...so i had to do it several more times lol...
so im going to start with 50gr NBTs....my buddy actually loaded for someone elses SPS like mine and it really liked Varget so i was going to start with it...i dont know hardly anything about powders....for the whelen i went with RE15 just because it seemed to be the most popular for it....
got to get my stuff in line for that soon...but i wont be shooting till its warmer out...no sense in workin up a load in the cold for a rifle that is shot in extreme heat....id imagine if i was real close to a max in the cold of winter, i could potentially blow up on a 90 degree day in August...and accuracy now is likely going to be different than it is when its warmer...so i wont mess around till the weather breaks...
my rifle seemed to like 50s better than 55s...i shot 55s ALOT...(factory ammo though..)
i was in a jam and couldnt find the 55gr ballistic tips anywhere so had to order them...ghog huntin was at its prime...i NEEDED ammo...i bought a 40rd value pack of 50grJHP UMC junk...that is the ammo that shot sub-moa groups if you believe that....i couldnt...so i had to do it several more times lol...
so im going to start with 50gr NBTs....my buddy actually loaded for someone elses SPS like mine and it really liked Varget so i was going to start with it...i dont know hardly anything about powders....for the whelen i went with RE15 just because it seemed to be the most popular for it....
got to get my stuff in line for that soon...but i wont be shooting till its warmer out...no sense in workin up a load in the cold for a rifle that is shot in extreme heat....id imagine if i was real close to a max in the cold of winter, i could potentially blow up on a 90 degree day in August...and accuracy now is likely going to be different than it is when its warmer...so i wont mess around till the weather breaks...
Couple interesting things:
Some of the most accurate loads were some of the cheapest.
The rounds were measured for runout and seating depth variation. Some of the ammo that was put together poorly still shot well, and some that was perfect didn't shoot as well.
I just bring this up to say don't be surprised that cheap ammo shoots well. The biggest difference in price is components used and brand premiums.
Just because your gun shot 50 grn umc's well doesn't mean it will shoot 50 nbt's. If I remember the test, the gun had no preference for bullet weight. Some 50's shot well, some didn't, some 40's shot well, some didn't.
Varget is a good all around choice, and would probably work well in the whelen too. Also Re 15 is good for the .22-250, though I've
Each gun is different and finding out what she likes is most of the fun.
Good Luck.
02-26-2010, 02:06 PM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
what i found was the "premium" ammo mattered at 200+...those same 55gr NBTs that got beat at 100 by the cheap JHP really shined at 200 where the consistency and flight of the cheap bullets just couldnt compare...
for short distance, plinking, etc, id have no trouble with the cheap ammo...but it was inconsistent at long ranges and the bullet didnt impress me none at all...had my only few crawl offs with the 22-250 with that ammo...which is why i quit shooting it and went back to paying double...
also pay for premium big game ammo just for the better bullets...not really NEEDED for deer hunting....till you have a cheap bullet fail when you need it to hold together..or need it to expand like it should and it fails to do so...or need it to go off like it should be the ammo is junk and they sale so much 1 complaint out of a million aint to bad...
im glad i started handloading...im already rolling premium ammo below the price of the cheap stuff...not to mention everything else...
didnt realize Varget or RE15 would work in either gun.....and likely 3006 too id assume? lol...didnt know that...like i said...im brand new and dont know anything about powder...
might have to try some different powders that i accumilate from other guns that will work in others...
i was also going to start with 50gr NBTs because my rifling is 1:14...believe its made for somewhat lighter/shorter bullets...so i was going to start at 50gr...i know a few others with the 700SPS and they like the 50gr pills....but mine could be different...we'll find out....
for short distance, plinking, etc, id have no trouble with the cheap ammo...but it was inconsistent at long ranges and the bullet didnt impress me none at all...had my only few crawl offs with the 22-250 with that ammo...which is why i quit shooting it and went back to paying double...
also pay for premium big game ammo just for the better bullets...not really NEEDED for deer hunting....till you have a cheap bullet fail when you need it to hold together..or need it to expand like it should and it fails to do so...or need it to go off like it should be the ammo is junk and they sale so much 1 complaint out of a million aint to bad...
im glad i started handloading...im already rolling premium ammo below the price of the cheap stuff...not to mention everything else...
didnt realize Varget or RE15 would work in either gun.....and likely 3006 too id assume? lol...didnt know that...like i said...im brand new and dont know anything about powder...
might have to try some different powders that i accumilate from other guns that will work in others...
i was also going to start with 50gr NBTs because my rifling is 1:14...believe its made for somewhat lighter/shorter bullets...so i was going to start at 50gr...i know a few others with the 700SPS and they like the 50gr pills....but mine could be different...we'll find out....
