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-   -   Loading Close to the Lands (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/reloading/289430-loading-close-lands.html)

statjunk 03-17-2009 11:53 AM
Loading Close to the Lands
 
Hello,

Wondering how many rifle manufactures set barrels close enough to the action so that bullets can be loaded close to the lands but still fit in the magazine. Any thoughts, experiences or opinions on this?

Thanks

Tom

jeepkid 03-17-2009 12:07 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
I know my Ruger is WAY off! I don't think most other manufacturers do either...[:@]

Howler 03-17-2009 01:42 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
From everything that I've researched, the distance that the bullet is from the lands is one of the, if not the, lastfactors to concider when loading for accuracy. I'm a firm believer in this as well.

jeepkid 03-17-2009 02:02 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: Howler

From everything that I've researched, the distance that the bullet is from the lands is one of the, if not the, lastfactors to concider when loading for accuracy. I'm a firm believer in this as well.
Not if your shooting VLD style bullets...

bigcountry 03-17-2009 02:46 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
I have bought a lot of guns over the past 15-20 years. And here is what I notice. Especially with Remington 700's. 700's made before 1990, it was not uncommon to be able to hit the rifling and be under max COL and be able to put in your mag. And over the years, it has gotten progressively worse. I don't have one rifle made past 2000 that I can hit the rifling and be under max COL, and be able to fit in mag. Shoot, take out being under max COL, and I still don't have one from 2000 up.

Most rifles will shoot underpressure with long throats. I believe its a safety thing. Some rounds require long throats. Like the 300RUM and the 7mmSTW and especially the weatherbys. If you get a 300RUM barreled and reamed so you can touch the rifleing under 3.6" COL, you most likely will not be able to to shoot factory ammo. I actually knew a guy who requested this, and he cannot load to most mfg. max recommendations.

I have a 1980 700 7mm-08 varmiter. Most accurate gun I got. I can touch the rifling at 2.74" with most bullets. Thats over .06" shy of SAAMI specs. My new 204ruger, the bullet would fall out before hitting.

statjunk 03-17-2009 05:33 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
How can you change a rifle to make this happen? Please describe the process the smith has to under go.

About how much will something like this cost?

Thanks

Tom

Maverick 1 03-17-2009 06:21 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
Is it possible to lengthen the magazine? I am not sure how much you could cut away as far as the magazine and the stock until you would start to encroach on the front guard screw.

statjunk 03-17-2009 08:40 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
I'm thinking you'd have to somehow cut the barrel not lengthen the magazine.

Tom

devil dog 03-18-2009 06:26 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: statjunk

How can you change a rifle to make this happen? Please describe the process the smith has to under go.

About how much will something like this cost?

Thanks

Tom
Need to pull the barrel and do a set-back " cut the amount needed off the chamber side of the barrel", then re-install the barrel and rechamber!. Personally, most stock barrels arent worth the time to me if your trying to make a target shooter, I would re-berrel with a Hart, Douglas or any top barrel manufactors.

Ron Duval 03-18-2009 07:14 AM
old
 
removed by RD

devil dog 03-18-2009 10:53 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
there is very little practical difference in a big game rifle that shoots 1" 5 shot groups and one that shoots 1 1/2" 3 shot groups.

That is only partialy true, hunting in areas that shots are made within 200yds, yes!, over 200 you need better groups to be confident. Now I'm not wanting to start another ethics blow-out on how making 500 + yard shots is unethical, I'm just stating that if you hunt long range, you need a rifle that can handle the task, if you happen to have a rifle with a long throat and you want to get every bit of accuacy out of it, your better off to re-barrel instead of setting back a stock barrel.

bigcountry 03-18-2009 11:22 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: statjunk

How can you change a rifle to make this happen? Please describe the process the smith has to under go.

About how much will something like this cost?

Thanks

Tom
My gunsmith has a two part reamer. One to ream the dimsions and another to move the headspace forward to desired depth. So he will use say a factory clymer reamer and ream out the SAAMI dimensions. Then he will go behind it and cut the headspace deeper. Then he will cut the threads and headspace properly.

Scott Gags 03-18-2009 11:22 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
My OAL is 3.44 with the 200 grain Accubond 5 thou off the lands. It fits in magazine and feeds fine. The rifle is a 116 Weather Warrior Savage in 30-06.

Ron Duval 03-18-2009 12:44 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
removed by RD

bigcountry 03-18-2009 01:21 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: Ron Duval

There are very few 500 yard shots, and even fewer 500 yard riflemen.Ionly intended big game rifles in my comment, and 1/2" difference in group size at 100 will not be the biggest problem a guy faces when he lines up a 500 yard shot.
Varmits and targets require quite a bit more from a rifle.
My point was in agreement with the point that you had made, extra work on a factory barrel does not make sesne.
That being said, I am a big believer in accurate rifles and have had a few rebarreled to get that extra bit of precision. My current favorite elk rifle is a .300 Win Mag that sports a 26" Douglas barrel, and elk are big targets!
I guess I don't understand your point of your post. The guy asked a technical question on a tech board. And your post goes on about accuracy on what you think is or is not needed.

This is not strickly a hunting reloading forum.

Ron Duval 03-18-2009 02:03 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
removed by RD

statjunk 03-18-2009 05:05 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
Thanks for the input guys. Approximately how much would that cost to have done to a Ruger? Ball park is just fine.

Also how much would a new barrel run me with installation? Are they relatively close?

Thanks

Tom

bigcountry 03-18-2009 05:10 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
New barrel install averages between 450-500 dollars. And getting a smith to do it the way you want might be more depending on if they have the reamer or not. Good smiths carry the standard stuff, but anything out of the orginary, they rent.

I should add that price is for a Dan Lilja, Krieger or Hart barrel. You can get cheaper barrels from Douglas and others.

Ron Duval 03-19-2009 03:47 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
removed by RD

eldeguello 03-19-2009 12:00 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
It is the length of the leade part of the chambering reamer that determines this, not how close the barrels are screwed in......

bigcountry 03-19-2009 12:59 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: eldeguello

It is the length of the leade part of the chambering reamer that determines this, not how close the barrels are screwed in......
I agree, but I have seen gunsmiths with a special reamer that only cuts headspaced used.

devil dog 03-19-2009 02:34 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: eldeguello

It is the length of the leade part of the chambering reamer that determines this, not how close the barrels are screwed in......
A free gunsmith lesson!, yes leade is built on the reamer, but that depends on the reamer used. Now when you do a set-back, you are cutting metal off the chamber side of the barrel were the threads screw into the receiver, one thread is appx. .190, depending on the thread pitch,so now you can fix headspace or an extra long throat to that point, and by turning another thread on the bottom side you can index the barrel with the sights in the correct position. Now you have a short chamber, with a match or a custom reamer, that doesnt have much or any leade, cut the new chamber to a tight S.A.A.M.I. or a custom chamber to your liking without the excesive leade the manufactors build into it to cover their buts "because our country became so SUE crazy".
As far as the Wylde chamber, that is another thing the manufactors use to cover their buts!, due to the fact that there is so much military surplus and it will function in a .223 chamber, the manufactors made the leade in the .223 chamber longerto accomidate the 5.56 in commecial rifles to keep the presures down, but it is still shorter than the 5.56 chamber because most commecial rifles WONT be functioning fully automatic. Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS and others also have their form of the Wylde chamber that Rock River/Wilson uses.
As far as shortening the leade to accurize a rifle, it does little, mostly it just saves the first portion of the lands and grooves because there isnt as much jump at ignition. That is why I said to just rebarrel, you get much better material and workmanship in a name brand barrel than messing with a stock barrel, but thats not to say you cant get a shooter out of a stock gun.

devil dog 03-19-2009 05:51 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: Ridge Runner

the original wylde chamber prints state a leade .040" longer than the 5.56 chambers.
RR
So the rest of this will make sense, the following dimensions are all based on an overall cartridge length that will have a Sierra 80-grain MatchKing bullet just touching the lands when the round is chambered. We don't all shoot Sierra 80-grain MatchKings, and we don't all set them to touch the lands, but most competitive High Power Rifle shooters do both. At the least it's a "standard" that gives us a point to work from. What I call the "Derrick Chamber" (Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks) needs an overall cartridge length of 2.442"; the "Wylde Chamber" (for competition-use AR-15 pioneer Bill Wylde) is 2.445"; the "AMU Chamber" (for U.S. Army competition team) is 2.500". There are others, but these are the most popular among competition rifle builders. A SAAMI chamber is normally about 2.410"; a NATO chamber is normally about 2.550". Those are huge differences, and I counted five different reamers just mentioned here.
Ridge Runner, here is just some info on some chamber sizes, I'll try to find a website I was on befor, it showed the different chamber sizes in blueprint form. As you can see, the Wylde chamber is in fact .105 shorter than the NATO chamber.

devil dog 03-20-2009 06:33 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
Ridge Runner, I'm not trying to start a argument call you a dummy or nothing, from most of your post I reed your a pretty level headed person thats got some commen sense, just a little confused I think in this case.A simple question was asked, you mentioned the Wylde chamber and I thought I should mention what the reasonings were behind it. Now, with that being said, it is hard to explain and even harder to type, so I'm not going to try, the only thing that I can suggest is to sit down with some measuring devices and figure what the leade will be.
This is a machine drawing of the dimensions of the reamers, not the finished chamber!,you need to look at more than just the length of the freebore N, you also need to look at thethroat angle R, and the freebore diameter Gto determine the acual size of the leade. If we figured your way, it would be the compleate opposite, you could shoot 5.56 Nato in a .223 chamber, but you could not shoot .223 in a 5.56 Nato chamber without pressures building.


bigcountry 03-20-2009 08:50 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
ORIGINAL: devil dog

ORIGINAL: eldeguello

It is the length of the leade part of the chambering reamer that determines this, not how close the barrels are screwed in......
A free gunsmith lesson!, yes leade is built on the reamer, but that depends on the reamer used. Now when you do a set-back, you are cutting metal off the chamber side of the barrel were the threads screw into the receiver, one thread is appx. .190, depending on the thread pitch,so now you can fix headspace or an extra long throat to that point, and by turning another thread on the bottom side you can index the barrel with the sights in the correct position. Now you have a short chamber, with a match or a custom reamer, that doesnt have much or any leade, cut the new chamber to a tight S.A.A.M.I. or a custom chamber to your liking without the excesive leade the manufactors build into it to cover their buts "because our country became so SUE crazy".
As far as the Wylde chamber, that is another thing the manufactors use to cover their buts!, due to the fact that there is so much military surplus and it will function in a .223 chamber, the manufactors made the leade in the .223 chamber longerto accomidate the 5.56 in commecial rifles to keep the presures down, but it is still shorter than the 5.56 chamber because most commecial rifles WONT be functioning fully automatic. Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS and others also have their form of the Wylde chamber that Rock River/Wilson uses.
As far as shortening the leade to accurize a rifle, it does little, mostly it just saves the first portion of the lands and grooves because there isnt as much jump at ignition. That is why I said to just rebarrel, you get much better material and workmanship in a name brand barrel than messing with a stock barrel, but thats not to say you cant get a shooter out of a stock gun.
I think they are talking 300win mag here, that headspaces off the belt.

devil dog 03-20-2009 11:33 AM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
The original poster, statjunk, never listed a caliber, I think Ron was talking about his .300Win Mag, which you are right, belted mags are headspaced off the belt. The whole set-back prosess is the same though between the both of them.

Mr. Conservatism 03-20-2009 04:31 PM
RE: Loading Close to the Lands
 
I guess I am fortunate to have purchased most of my bolt rifles a while back. I have no trouble in seating the bullets out to the lands and still getting them into the magazine. Of course, I own rifles in similar action lengths....270's, 30-06's, a 280 and a 25-06. I know some friends who have guns in varmint calibers who can't get them out to the lands. Most of them just put a shell in the chamber and don't feed them from the magazine while hunting wood chucks or praire dogs,so it is a moot point for them.

Mr. C


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