Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Hello,

I was talking with an old timer last week and he explained to me that turning the case necks was the most important issue to accurate reloading. He said more important that a couple of grains one way or the other and more important that distance from the lands.

Do you guys agree with this?

Tom

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Well, I think turning case necks has it's merit, I personally don't believe it's more important than having powder charge weight errors of " a couple of grains". Are you sure he didn't say TRIMMING the case necks??
I've got some mighty fine shooting rifles that have had their cases loaded several times or more, and have never seen a neck turner. I'm not buying it.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Most important reloading measure....far and away is common sense. Turning necks isn't even on my top five list. I do it for my custom cut chambers but otherwise it is tedious and non-productive in a factory cut chamber.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

The old timer might be right, but I believe the difference in acuracy you get by neck turning (outside?) is of more interest to a bench-rest shooter than to someone using a factory-built sporting rifle for big game hunting. I am pretty happy with 1.25 MOA for five shots from a hunting rifle, although I have several that do somewhat better than this. Neck turning is a real pain! I suppose it does add to the reloading experience, however.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

A lot of so called experts say that the powder charge is one of the least critical aspects for accuracy. Personally, I do not believe that. With over 40 yrs of reloading experience and also from results by other reloaders have shown that consistant charges results in better accuracy. Changing a charge by even one grain has also shown to increase or decrease accuracy (group size) as does changing primers. I believe case trimming aids a good deal in accuracy too. Squaring up the case mouths, having the cases all the same length for consistant pressure on the bullet. I also have found that a factory crimp die like the one Lee makes shows increase in accuracy in some cartridges. I've never turned a case neck since I've been reloading.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Yes he was talking about trimming! Sorry. I'm a relative newbie and easily confused.

Tom

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

This old timer is dead wrong. Powder charge and bullet depth will beat out bullet runout/neck thicknessby a mile.

I have done extensive tests on the subject of runout. Ask Mossyoak33 on here how seriously I have taken it. I have found runout matters past .01"on big cartridges with alot of freebore. But if you are shooting 7mm08 and are .003" from the rifling, I found litterly almost no differnce up to .01" runout.

0.01" runout is huge. You can see this by rolling the cartridge.. by testing I would separate into batches different runout from 0 runout to .005" runout, to .010". My 300RUM, and 7mmSTW shot .7MOA groups with everything under .007" runout. Past that, I would get fliers and open up to 1.5MOA. I have a target 7mm08 with a very short neck, and I litterly got .5MOA with everything I put thru it.

My suggestion is to not go down the neck turning road. It can help with flyers. No doubt, but going down this road, you need to learn to anneal, and have quality concentricity gauges. For about2 years there, I turned reloading into work doing this.

But if youfind a good dynamic load, and yourgun is beddedproperly and solid, neckthickness matters very little.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

So I will give it up. I'm getting groups around 3/4" with my Ruger M77 in 300 WM. That is with Sierra Spitzer BT's. Everything else results in around 1.25"-1.5" groups.

Tom

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Neck sizing with the Lee Collet diesis supposed to helpa great deal with runout. I cannot say I even measure for runout myselfbutmost ofthe benchrest crowd believethat Collet dies makerunouta non issue.Collet Dieswould be an easy way to control runout without getting intoneck turning. I have found that neck sizing with collet dies hasgotten better accuracyfor me also.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

This is another reason I quit worrying about it. I have collet dies for most of my calibers. I think Tom told me he did too. Good point.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

I would think neck turning is one of those things you do when you have meticulously loaded your ammo and worked up loads carefully and are looking for that extra .10 inch shrinkage in your groups. I have never done it and I have some rifles that willprints 1?2" groups at 100 yards. I suppose if I was looking to shoot out at 500 yards or so I might get anal about turning necks, but it doesn't seem to have any real world practical purpose for hunting big game at least.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Dead wrong. Some of the most accurate, yes benchrest winning guns don't have turned necks.

1) Case fit to chamber
2) Bullet fit to throat
3) Charge to charge variation
4) Bullet match to twist

Turning necks is a misnomer because all BR guys used to do it. Powder variation is also a misnomer because BR guys don't weigh. They don't weigh because high end measures are more accurate than a scale. They just add a click or remove a click. They also use heavy BR actions. Accuracy will suck before the action fails.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

All of the above can and does have some effect to accurate reloading. I personally feel that the most important factor is consistency. If your not consistent from round to round you can load fairly accurate ammo, when you ensure that each round is the same as the last and the one before it then you have some consistently accurate handloads.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Guys... he stated a few posts ago that he was in fact meaning neck "trimming", not "turning". Man, what a difference a word makes lol. A rookie mistake, we have all done it. I have been reloading for two years now and am just now figuring out and understanding what a difference setting your sizing die up and down makes. I have come up with some pretty nice shooting loads, but am very excited now that I think that I pretty much know the basics of reloading real well now.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Still trying to get there.

Tom

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Maybe I should rephrase that and just say that "I think that I understand the basics of reloading now" lol. I don't think that I will ever fully "have it all down" though. I have met an awful lot of people who are much older than I am and have been reloading for many many years that act as though they barely know what they are doing. Reloading is truly one of those hobbies that we do that is a lifelong commitment to learning. I myself am looking forward to it and meeting many more good people.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Why is trimming key to accuracy?

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Ah, so! Trimming is a different proposition. Cases must be kept under the max. length in order to avoid a condition in which the bullet gets "stuck" in the case mouth on firing. This can cause high pressures! Cases should all be the same o/a length, as well. But how much effect cases of variable lengths has on accuracy I cannot say, since I've never experimented with this factor to find out.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Ok, I think there is some confusion here so I'm going to dummy this up in hopes of understanding this and for the sake of everyone else too.

The old guy, Steve, was using a tool that the case mouth fits into and has a cutter that cuts the outside of the case so that the thickness of the mouth is uniform all the way around.

He said that what he was doing, (Can't recall what he called it), is the most important reloading measure for accuracy. Though in honesty I think he was assuming I was doing most other things right or mostly right.

So what was he doing?

Is that the most important measure?

Just some background, this guy is a really good shot and has probably $100K in rifles and another $20k in reloading equipment. He used to shoot with guys like Sinclair and other big names. He actually just refers to them by their first names.

Tom

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

That would be case neck turning, which trims the case neck to the same thickness all the way around (if done right) to hopefully square up the bullet entering the chamber. At least that is the way that I understand it. This is not a procedure that I have yet done, as I am only reloading for my own hunting needs and do not shoot competitively.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

What you have described sounds to me like NECK TURNING, not trimming. It can be done on the inside of the case neck, or the outside. Outside turning will produce a neck that is equal in thickness all around, but inside turning just increases the size of the hole. Theprocess of outside turningis supposed to improve accuracy.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Again, it is all relative. Neck turning without consistency, case fit to chamber, etc is worthless. To me, I am looking at neckturning only because I am at a point where the gun is shooting 1/2" groups and I want to go better. At that point, I have to ask myself:
1) Is there enough thickness runout to warrant this? So far, I think not.
2) Is the barrel/ action/ chamber ready for this? Probably not. I shoot a stock Savage 12 BVSS.
3) Do I have a ball micrometer to accurately measure neck thickness runout? Not yet, but I do have an RCBS casemaster which can be rigged to measure this.
4) Do I have dies for this? Well, I have Forster dies which still have an expander ball. If I had Wilson or Redding dies, I might be in a better position.
5) Since my rifle is a field rifle, should I really be spending my time position shooting now that I have a .5 - .75 MOA long range hunting load. YES

So, I am stuck on question 5, but I do have a nice nect turning setup!

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

If your rifle is the basic sporter hunting rifle then I would say that you have a very good un-modified rifle. To get any better than what you have achieved would cost you hundreds, if not thousands of dollars and with a stock grade barrel the gains probably wouldn't be worth the money spent. If you are talking about a 100 yard 1/2 inch group then you definately have a good load to rifle match and should be very happy with that.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Yes, 1/2" @ 100 yards. I am hesitant to say this because this is a best 5 shot 100 yard group. An average of 10 groups might be more like .75 MOA, but that also is plenty good enough for me. It is not stock or average hunting rifle. The rifle is a Savage 12 BVSS in 300 WSM. It has been beeded in the stock by me and the scope base has been bedded to the action. Other than that, it is just a pretty good load and a fine Burris XTR scope. Weight(IMO, the biggest impact to accuracy) is about 14 lbs. Carries ok. Last rifle was 12 lbs, so I expect some weight.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Thndchicken hit the nail on the head. Consistancy is by far the most critical procedure in accurate reloading. Neck turning is worthless and a waste of time on a factory chamber. Some can argue it's a waste of time on a custom chamber too and I have 2 of them with tight necks. The next best thing is confidnece. Be confident in yourself. Be confident you have done everything tothe best of your ablitly, be confident in your shot. If you think that weighing cases, bullets and primers helps, then you should do it because it adds confidence. If you think turning necks on a factory chamber adds to accuracy then do it, once again for the confidence.

RE: Most Important Reloading Measure
 

Even from a bench, few can hold under 1/2" @ 100 yards! That is outstanding accuracy!! Wish I could shoot that well.....