When is it clean?
 

Sorry for all the post in a short time, but here is another. Wanted to do this new savage "right" so I asked the guy at the shop what to clean with, he wants me to use Hopps 9. Well it seems like there is never no end to getting a clean patch in and back out still clean. I used a little sweets at first, but he dislikes it, said it will ruin a barrel. So I have tried not to use it. Cleaned my gun to night with the hopps and had it about as good as it will do with it, about thirty patches and fifteen minuets worth of brushing. So I decide to break out the Sweets and by doing it to there instructions had to do it six times before the patches would not come out blue. I would soak a couple patches and run them down the barrel, wait one minuet and then push out. Would follow that up with regular lube cleaner to get the sweets out, did not want to leave a barrel coated for a long time with sweets. But like above it took six times with this cycle before I had clean patches, then with hopps, butches bore shine, and Kroil (sp) I had patches coming out as clean as they went in, just to see what they did.

Two questions....

How clean does it have to be?

And is Sweets bad for your gun if used properly? I know leaving in your bore is bad, but if used right is it ok and or good?

RE: When is it clean?
 

Sweets is awesome. Anyone that would say it would ruin your barrel and use Hoppes9, is a many I would steer clear of from now on.

Saying all that, I use wipeout these days only. Or CR-10. Or montana extreme. All do the same thing.

RE: When is it clean?
 

If you are using a brass brush and solvent,you are getting blue from them.
As the barrel breaks in,it will clean quicker.

RE: When is it clean?
 

First I do not use bullets that have the pure cooper jackets, I use only gliuding mental jacketed bullets. I have never had any copper fouling issues (never). I just use hoppies #9 nitro and a good gun oil for cleaning. And I find that the oil does work as a cleaning solvent to. I spend say 5-10 minutes to clean a gun with a patch and jag and thats it.

There are a lot of good solvents, but if you do not shoot pure copper jacketed bullets you will never need the harsh solvents which manycontain amonia. And some copper in the bore is good for accuacy. So why remove all of it if it takes say 6-12 shoots to get back to accuracy after such an hard cleaning?

RE: When is it clean?
 

I have had heavy fouling in some guns while using bullets with gilding metal jackets.It would have taken days to remove the copper with Hoppes #9.Sweets and cr-10 will not harm a barrel if used correctly,and remove the copper in minutes.Some guns do require a few fouling shots to shoot most accurately,but some do not.I find that my match grade aftermarket barrels generally shoot just as well from a clean barrel as they do after a few fouling shots.

Do they produce mental fouling?:D

RE: When is it clean?
 

I have nine center fire rifles most are only 10-20 years old but two are very old a 1903A1 and a late 20's model 14. Calibers are 224/277/308/358 makes are Remington, Ruger, Marlin, Springfield and Shilen match grade barrels on two. I don't have any ultra velocity guns either.

Like I said I never have had any copper folwing issues ever. Call this limited but I do not nor does any one I know that doesn't shoot pure copper jacketed bullets. So are you OK with that?

So If you do not have a problem why use something like sweets? The poster didn't say he had a bad copper problem so I gave him a simple answer to a simple question.And yes you can spend far to much time cleaning a gun that doesn't really require it.

RE: When is it clean?
 

Unless you are using coated bullets like the Barnes xlc,some fouling will be deposited on the barrel whether you shoot a 30-06,or a 30-378.The standard Hoppes #9 will not remove all of this fouling,and as a result this fouling will build up,and over time this copper will start to effect accuracy.I have heard several people complain that their barrels were shot out because the accuracy was falling off ,despite regular cleanings with a regular powder solvent like Hoppes #9.However,once sweets or cr-10 was used in these guns(in some cases,it took hours of repeated applications because the fouling was so bad),the accuracy miraculously improved.According to them ,these people didn't have problems with copper fouling either.The use of sweets or cr-10 on a regular basis will remove this copper and prevent it from accumulating and leading to problems later on.It's a lot easier to prevent a build up of fouling by using a little sweets each time you clean the barrel,than to let it build up then spend a great deal of time and effort trying to remove it later.

RE: When is it clean?
 

Stubblejumber hit the nail on the head, regular old Hoppes # 9 is for powder fouling, not for copper removal. The fouling indication you were getting with the sweets was probably from you jag and brushes. I use Hoppes to soak the bore, 10 passes with a bronze brush to remove powder fouling, then run several patches until clean. Then I switch to Shooter's Choice (my preference) and a nylon brush until no sign of copper fouling is present. I then use the Hoppes to neutralize whatever copper solvent was left in the bore and apply a coat of oil.

RE: When is it clean?
 

Thanks guys! you all answeredgreat. After learning of sweets and seeing the results of it I understand copper fouling, I think. Learning center fire shooting has been a eye opener. I would hate to see whatsweets would look like if ran down my old 22 mag!

RE: When is it clean?
 

I have to agree, this has been my experience as well.

RE: When is it clean?
 

right after getting out the copper, I use brake cleaner to get out all the sweets, and immediately oil the barrel.

Try that wipeout too. It has a rust prohibiting agent in it, and you can leave it in the barrel litterly for days. Never rust or pitting. The ammonia in sweets does not pit itself, but it does take the gun barrel down to bare metal and is hydroscopic which will pit the barrel.

RE: When is it clean?
 

To answer the original question Sweets used properly will not hurt the barrel. If it did you wouldn't see guys cleaning their expensive custom barrels with it. I'll second Stubblejumper, you could not have said it any better;)

RE: When is it clean?
 

Ultra Bore Coat the bore and discover a new perspective on clean...

RE: When is it clean?
 

Never had a copper problem ?? Either your in denial or you don't shoot enough LOL. Use the bore cleaning foam- you will never use hoppes again. You can use copper bullets all you want.

RE: When is it clean?
 

The most important thing about cleaning a gun comes from breaking it in. If you look at a magnified bore on a factory gun it will look like thousands of jagged edges. These edges all catch fouling, copper, lead, etc. Custom barrels have typically been lapped and are free of these. The best way is to start fresh if you have a gun that has been fired and possibly abused.

Clean gun with sweets or Hoppes ora good copper solvent

Then clean it with JB Bore paste

shoot the gun

after each round run a brush through the barrel several times

after ten rounds clean again with sweets or other solvent

fire another 10 rounds

fire another ten rounds and run brush through after each round

clean thoroughly with sweets or hoppes

use the JB bore paste again

fire a fouling shot

then fire a 3 shot group for accuracy

some good info here:
http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

RE: When is it clean?
 

Just put 200 rounds through my hornet this weekend, it still shoots great. When I cleaned it with #9 hoppies it did have some green tinge to it at first and some copper dust too. After the patches came clean I oil the bore with kroil and let it set for an hour. Used more #9 and patches till it was clean and oiled it with kroil for storage.

Maybe some day I will buy a gun that just loads up and will be force to use harsh cleaner, but so far I have been fine forover 40years of shooting. I would argue that #9 doesremove copper just not cheimicaly but moremechanicly. You wont see blue copper oxide on the patches but that does not mean its not working.So don't be too fast to laugh at some one that doesn't have the copper issues you do they just might know something you don't. I have metalergiststo consualt with where I work and some are into shooting sports.

RE: When is it clean?
 

I had forgot I even made this a while back, so here is a update. I was using the Hoppe's and tried butches bore shine also. I may just be expecting to much, but I consider clean when you run a wet patch down it and it comes out the same color it when in. I did not get this with Hoppe's or butches. Then went to sweets and had to clean per their directions six times before I had clean sweets patches coming out, that is patches with no blue, then fallowed it up with Kroil I had clean patches. Now I have been cleaning after every trip to the range with sweets for three times, first one comes out blue, second has a tint of blue, and third is clear, just to make sure two was all i needed, then about ten wet patches with Kroil and the patches come out as clean as they go in, and twice I have tried Hoppe's to make sure and the Hoppe's comes out just as clean. So now I feel like my barrel is clean and not in doubt. Also another thing I have been doing is swabbing the barrel with alcohol patches just before shooting. Read this on several competition forums. The logic was that most of the carbon fouling comes from oil in the barrel. After doing this I noticed my fouling shots are almost as close as my good shots and the gun is alot cleaner when I clean it with just kroil before sweets. Used to get real dark patches at first, but not after the alcohol process the patches are alot cleaner.

RE: When is it clean?
 

I'll have to try that trick of using rubbing alcohol before I shoot to clear the oil.

I always use Sweets to get out the copper from my Accubonds. I probably need to clean more as i never quite seem to get a clean patch. But Hopps9 just doesn't get any of the copper (although I think they came out with a copper-remover product now to help with that).

RE: When is it clean?
 

All i use to clean my guns is Hoppes #9, Kroil and lighter fluid

RE: When is it clean?
 

My routine is a powder solvent , followed by sweets, cr10,etc, then dry patch and heavy oil patch, dry patchs and finished with a light oil patch. Prior to shooting I dry patch to remove any excess oil from the bore. No problems be it a high grade or standard factory barrel.

Coated rod and bore guide are tools I consideressential forbore cleaning.

RE: When is it clean?
 

I guess everyone has their favorite products/procedures they use. After many years of thinking Hoppe's #9 was all I needed, I got my eyes opened after trying a few others and different methods. Sweet's and Butch's Boreshine are my favorites now. I've seen how they perform for me, and am satisfied. I am going to have to try the alcohol patch before the first shot from a clean bore....