Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

I prevously used a Lee hand die set to neck size my .270 loads. Now I have a 2-die RCBS set but its a full-length die set. I don't want to full length size (FL). My cases are fire-formed to my gun and neck sizing is all I need.

The question is, how do I know that I am getting enough sizing of the neck if I back out the full-length die to avoid sizing the rest of the case? Should I measure the inside case mouth dia. and compare it to one sized by the Lee hand loader or a FL sized case? I know I can buy a neck size only die, but I know it can be done with the FL die too.

Please advise.

Thanks,

dr

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Place your die in your press and crank it down until it touches your shell holder. Then, back it out 1/8th to 1/4 turn.This will partially size your case.One more thing to do, though. Seat a bullet in the partially formed case, after sizing, and make sure that it fits your chamber. When you seat your bullet, you are going to change your neck dimensions a few thousands of an inch, and they may not chamber easily.If this happens, turn the full length sizer die in another 1/8 th turn, and your problem should be solved. If you place your full length sizer in your press, and it does not cam over center, you are only partially sizing. You should be able to see the changes in your neck dimensions as you continue to screw the die down. If you remove your expander rod/ball assembly,then you will have no resistance when you remove your case to check how far you are sizing it,making it easier for you.Once you are satisfied with your results,lock the die,put the die back together, and you are good to go.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Dave,

There are several things that come into play when you attempt to use a full length sizing die to neck size a case. screwing the die up one turn isn't always going to give you the results you want. The more your case expands the more you're going too have too raise the die. With the die all the way down you'll full length size the case. As you raise the die, depending on how much the case expands when fired, the die will partially resize the case. Part of the neck will be sized and part of the case body will be sized. This case with the "partially resized" body may be distorted enough that the case will not be chambered in the same rifle in which it was fired. If the die is raised high enough so the die doesn't touch the case body at all during the sizing operation, then the case will be neck sized. If the case has a long neck, like the .270W, then you may well have enough of the neck sized to properly hold the bullet. If you're loading a .308W, then you may have a problem. The heck of it is is that at some point you're going to want to full length resize some cases and you're just going to mess up the finely adjusted die again. It is so much easier just to buy a separate neck sizing die. Good luck,

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

What you need to do is buy some tools to measure your neck to actually see what is happening. The idea of using carbon from a match or markers is just asking for problems. Buy yourself a head and shoulders gauge, and see how much yoru FL sizer is actually knocking back your shoulders.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

As a general rule, a neck has to be sized down fro the case mouth one bullet diameter backto securely hold new bullet. This means that you need to size about .277" of the neck before loading the powder charge and seating the bullet.

What I do is remove the expander buttonstem, screw the sizing die into the press with a trimmed cartridge in the shellholder, and screw the die down until it contacts the case mouth. ThenI screw it in further a little at a time until I can see that the die is sizing down .277" or so ofthe neck for a .270, etc. This amount of neck sizing can be approximate. It is not too critical, as long as it is sufficient, and all are done the SAME. Then I lock the sizing die in that position, re-install theexpander stem, and size the rst of the cases. If you are having difficulty seeing how much of the neck is being sized, take a match and "smoke" the case neck so you CAN SEE what the sizing die is touching at the top of the stroke. If you do it this way, neither the case head or the shoulder is reduced enough that it no longer fits your individual chamber well.

Now this approach is ONLY for sizing the necks of cases that are to be used in a rifle that you already know for sure that the cases will chamber in!!In addition, itOBVIOUSLYonly works for some of us, as Big Country's comment indicates. But it works for ME, when I can't just look at the sized case and tell how much of it has been sized, which I CAN do 99.99% of the time without "smoking" or buying a bunch of additional tools for the purpose!

In addition, I suppose it is CONCEIVABLE that partial FL resizing with a FL die could distort a piece of brass so much that it will not rechamber even in the rifle it was last fired in, but in over 50 years of reloading ammunition, this has never happened to ME or any other reloaderI know personally, so I would not worry too much about something like this happening! I think you would have to actively concentrate on doing something really wrong while sizing a case to get it so distorted it would not go back into the rifle it was fired in. (No doubt there are some reloaders who are proficient enough to do this. These guysare also, no doubt, serious contenders for the Darwin Awards..... )

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

It is??? That's news to me, as i've been using a marker since the 60's without problems. I have no idea, how many folks i've taught to reload over the years, and that'show i also taught them to do it. I never had one come back with a problem of any kind from doing so...

If you can't "see what's happening" using a marker, then you need to have someone show you how touse that methodproperly too...

BTW, to the origional poster: almost without exception, you can't only "neck size" with a fl. sizer die. Allyour "really"doing, is sizeing the case "less" because you don't push it all the way into the die...If you really want to only neck size, you need to but another die...

DM

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

My way works. Bottom line. My way works within .002" every time.I will guarantee you i can load ammo with the necks within .002" everytime.In fact, I have proven to several old timers that used this fool way that they can't, getting all that crap inside thier FL dies. People with much more experience than you. I know, you could never learn anything on these pages. Your just too good.:D

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

OLD TIMERS = FOOLS???

BC, you exhibit ONE CHARACTERISTIC that I find upsetting. Whenever someone points out that a method you don't agree with has worked well for them, you attack thempersonally. That's immature.

I will concede that the way you do it, your results may be to closer tolerances than mine. Yet, myammunition usuallymeets my requirements. Since I am not a benchrest competitor, I find that 1 to 1.5 MOA issufficient for my needs.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

No, I never said old timer were fools. Far from. Sorry you ever got that. Listen Eld. I get attacked my others who thing thier methods are better. Like DM. Ithink he is very immature for his age and very insecure. The most immature older gentleman on the page, in fact any forum I have visited. Maybe one or too little more insecure than him on accurate reloading, but anyway he is up there. He could give alot of help if he wanted, but decides not too. Like his 12 year old actions on the caliber of the week. That and other posts showed me what he was all about.

Eld, you are one person who I sincerely think and has proven that you know your stuff and you act very mature and civil. I have nothing but respect for you. And hope I never offend you. And take it to heart that you lost respect for me over this post.

And I shouldn't play into his hands, but I am a jokster. And sometimes go too far.

Your right, the carbon method, works somewhat. So does partial full length just until its hard to close your bolt. But I am after perfect numbers. I don't know why. Its my nature. I love little clover leafs. I put 120% in every hobby. Some, sure 1.5MOA is fine. For me, its a never ending battle or sell the gun to get what I want. And I have a bunch that I am happy. I think I have came to the conclusion, I am a bowhunter first, and just enjoying reloading more than actually hunting with a rifle.

I did a bunch of tests one time seeing the effects of Partial FL sizing. Since you can't cam over, it varied the shoulders greatly. Even pulling out the expander ball, it did. I prefer to have a friend of mine at a machine shop modify my die somewhat where i can FL size but still only knock back the shoulders .001". I know I ruin the warranty. But its worth it to me. And usually only have to take off .002". I only have done this on two dies, for a particular guns where it mattered to me. RCBS as you know will do this for you too.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

eld,

A partially resized case that won't chamber is not a rare situation. I've experienced it and from the posting on other web sites, quite a few others have as well.

The problem arises when a full length sizing die is raised in an attempt to neck size only. The portion of the die that normally contacts the shoulder of the case no longer does so. If the body of the case is contacted and that portion of the case is reduced in diameter the squeezing of the case actually extends the length of the normal head space measurement. This is what creates the situation where the case will no longer allow the bolt to be closed and the case chambered.

I've been a very active hand loader for fifty-five years with rifle, pistols, revolvers and shotguns. I have also taught many other to reload. A good friend of mine, who had approximately forty years experience.. Until his death about a month ago, we were always on the phone with one another seeking answers to questions that had arose. So I am still learning. The fact that I have close to sixty books that deal with firearms and hand loading is a constant help. The fact that we can come on a site, ask questions and try to help others who have problems in my opinion is the best reason for the INTERNET existing. I really don't think arguing or insults help anyone.

I hope all of you and yours have a joyous holiday season.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

"What I do is remove the expander buttonstem, screw the sizing die into the press with a trimmed cartridge in the shellholder, and screw the die down until it contacts the case mouth. ThenI screw it in further a little at a time until I can see that the die is sizing down .277" or so ofthe neck for a .270, etc. This amount of neck sizing can be approximate. It is not too critical, as long as it is sufficient, and all are done the SAME. Then I lock the sizing die in that position, re-install theexpander stem, and size the rst of the cases."

It has worked for me for four decades+. When i get persnicketty and weigh bullets, weigh cases,cut the primer pockets, chamfer the flash holes, chamfer the case mouths and all that other stuff; my re-loads are as accurate as any match ammo out there.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Big Country, thank you for your kind response. There is no doubt that your measurement methods are more precise, and more repeatable, than mine. As a matter of fact, I have gotten to the point, regarding partial resizing, that I don't even use the "smoky match" method any more, I just look at the case neck after I take it out of the die, and if it looks like enough of it got sized to hold a bullet firmly, I use it that way. Yes, it is pretty crude! No doubt I'd do better with the measurement tools you use! BUT, then I'd have to learn HOW to use them, because right now, I don't know how!! I only have a micrometer caliper and a micrometer right now. I use the mic to measure bullet diameters, expander plug sizes, bore slug diameters, and neck diameters of loaded ammo. The caliper is used to measure case lengths and loaded ammo o/a lenghts. That's about all the measuring I do.


Hope your KY trip is safe and good. Also, enjoy the hunting season!

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

"The problem arises when a full length sizing die is raised in an attempt to neck size only. The portion of the die that normally contacts the shoulder of the case no longer does so. If the body of the case is contacted and that portion of the case is reduced in diameter the squeezing of the case actually extends the length of the normal head space measurement. This is what creates the situation where the case will no longer allow the bolt to be closed and the case chambered."

Yes, Big Bob, I can see where that could happen, particularly in situationswhere a person's rifle chamber is big enough to allow a case to expand excessively, and upon sizing the "extra brass" has to have someplace to go when the case is squeezed back down. I stand corrected! Such an occurrance would certainly explain a lot of apparently strange happenings.....

I'm awfully old, but I hope I never get too old to learn something new!

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

I should have known you'd go off like a bomb, you just can't seem take anyone not agreeing with you 100%, and that's sad...

You seem to like to buy a new gadget for everything you do, and then proclaim the way everyone else does things will not work, or is "asking for trouble"... I never said your gadget didn't work, and i surely didn't personally attack you, like you seem to enjoy doing to me... Anyone reading this post can see that plain as day...

But, i have been loading long enough (since the 60's) to know that, the way it's been done since, well since loading started "also works", and it works well... I shot BR for several years, and did very good. The "tried and true" method worked just fine then too...

I'm sure it's not just eld that has your temper tantrums figured out...

DM

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Well, i have backed the die off and neck sized that way for over four decades. For over 15 years i have used the Hornady spray lube and am particular about the inside of the necks.Never have had a case that refused to chamber after resizing. Of course, i have only re-loaded about 150,000-200,000 rounds after resizing this way.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Falcon,
Is that all. heck, I've loaded more pistol ammo than that. (Joke) Just goes to show that all of us can always learn something.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Ok, let me get this right. You have fired 100 rounds a week, (of bottleneck rifle of course, thats what were talking about) for 40 years without taking a break. No slow years? Maybe you had children and didn't get to shoot your usual 400 rounds that month?:D

I agree, you guys have shot alot. I have learned tons off of Bigbob. He has helped me countless number of times.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

"Seem to"????? "Seem to"???? oh my gosh......DM if you only knew the half of it......Bigcountry's gotta buy, tinker and have 10 of everything, theres no "Seem to" about it. But that being said, hes a great guy who is welcomed at my house anytime. Ive learned alot from him and like alot of other guys on here the Big Boy knows his stuff.......next time he comes over Ill give him some shock therapy or something and work on his "abrasive personality" for ya!! :D

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

I may be wrong, but it is my opinion that the expander ball could be doing this when you pull it back through the neck. I use the Sinclair sizing mandrel to eliminate the shoulder problem. I also use sizing wax inside of a cleaned(tumbled) neck. Tom.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

"Ok, let me get this right. You have fired 100 rounds a week, (of bottleneck rifle of course, thats what were talking about) for 40 years without taking a break."

Yep, i firean average ofabout 8,000-10,000 rounds of center fire ammo per year,About halfof it isre-loads. There have been some years when i fired less than 1,000 rounds when i was working overseas and others when i fired30,000 rounds. Thegunsmithloves it when it is time to re-barrel.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Tom,
Your right, the expander ball does extend the case slightly. But I've found that the effect is only .001" or .002" and that it wasn't enough to prevent the bolt of a rifle closing.

On the other hand, a partially resized case may be lengthened by .010" or more. Or the case may be lengthened slightly. The determining factor is the diameter of the case body area of the chamber of the rifle. The largerthe diameter, the more likely it is that this situation may be created. If, however, the chamber of a rifle is close to, or at minimum, the situation may verywell never happen.

I've gone almost entirely to dies that use sizing bushings to do my resizing with, The exception to this is my full length sizing die. Then I adjust the expander ball differently than most people. I had discovered that it was possible for the
expander ball to pull the neck out of alignment when it was adjusted the way RCBS dies are made so the case neck passes over the ball near the end of the cases downward movement. With the case in the full upward portion on the stroke, I raise the ball until the ball is touching the inside of the case. I then lower the ball about 1/8". I want a major part of the case neck still in the poat of the die that sizes the neck as the case starts over the ball. This forces the ball to be in true alignment with the axis of the neck. Than I tighten the lock ring for the expander stem. This gives me two things. 1, A case neck ine true alignment with the bore of the rifle, if the die itself is true. And 2, the case neck starts over the ball when the press handle is in its lowest position and at the peak of the mechanical leverage of the press. The case is so much easier to move over the ball that I don't get near as tired. Now I know for you young
guys don't need to worry about such things. But it does make a difference for us septuagenarians it does make a big difference. Of course if you adjust the ball in this manner it is necessary to use a universal decapping die to remove primere. I've gotten to the point that I use my decapping die on all my cases and then clean prime pockets by hand.

RE: Neck Sizing with a Full Length Die
 

Hey BigBob.....good tip....I'm gonna try it... Thanks!!..............