flattened primers
06-17-2007, 07:48 AM
#11
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: flattened primers
ORIGINAL: bigcountry
You ought to do what I did. I went on a quest when starting reloading to see what the indicators look like. so I loaded up some shells past max in .2gr increments. What I found, is flat primers are a great indicator. Cause if your not sure your overpressure over flattened primers, you probably are not over pressure yet. I saw withing 1.5gr over max primers that looked like it was part of the brass head it was so flat, and bolt lift started to get tough.Now thats a flattened primer. I found on one case not only flat, but pierced primer. I decided not to go further and find out how much it takes to lock the brass up in the gun.
I would find out about that 2 or so years later when taking a partition load, and trying to put it to a trophy bonded bullet. Not only flat primer, but had to take a cleaning rod and knock out the brass gently.
Federal is always going to look flat, and winchester and CCI will give you good indicators. But when your well over max, you won't have to scratch your head, you will know a definate yes.
You ought to do what I did. I went on a quest when starting reloading to see what the indicators look like. so I loaded up some shells past max in .2gr increments. What I found, is flat primers are a great indicator. Cause if your not sure your overpressure over flattened primers, you probably are not over pressure yet. I saw withing 1.5gr over max primers that looked like it was part of the brass head it was so flat, and bolt lift started to get tough.Now thats a flattened primer. I found on one case not only flat, but pierced primer. I decided not to go further and find out how much it takes to lock the brass up in the gun.
I would find out about that 2 or so years later when taking a partition load, and trying to put it to a trophy bonded bullet. Not only flat primer, but had to take a cleaning rod and knock out the brass gently.
Federal is always going to look flat, and winchester and CCI will give you good indicators. But when your well over max, you won't have to scratch your head, you will know a definate yes.
06-17-2007, 08:35 AM
#12
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northern colorado
Posts: 749
RE: flattened primers
Eld, I have picked up alot from you and this is another item I agree with you on. I have since done more loking at primers when loaded at max and I will say that I have found a new indicator. When the firing pin dent has a raised perimeter around it, for me it is a sign of excessive pressure. Thanks, EJ
06-19-2007, 02:26 PM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: flattened primers
ORIGINAL: ejpaul1
Eld, I have picked up alot from you and this is another item I agree with you on. I have since done more loking at primers when loaded at max and I will say that I have found a new indicator. When the firing pin dent has a raised perimeter around it, for me it is a sign of excessive pressure. Thanks, EJ
Eld, I have picked up alot from you and this is another item I agree with you on. I have since done more loking at primers when loaded at max and I will say that I have found a new indicator. When the firing pin dent has a raised perimeter around it, for me it is a sign of excessive pressure. Thanks, EJ
06-19-2007, 04:49 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: flattened primers
ORIGINAL: eldeguello
I have no doubt that your observations and impressions were accurate. However, whether or not a primer appears flat, or has other "signs of excessive pressures", such as a pierced primer, can vary significantly due to factors other than excessive pressures. Primer fit in the primer pocket, thickness of primer cups, softness or lack thereof of the primer cup material,the strength of the striker/hammer spring, and shape of the firing pin are some of these other factors. This is why I do not consider the appearance of a fired primer to NECESSARILY be a reliable indicator of excessive pressures! Yet, with the other indicators of excessive pressures you listed along with flattened primers, you are no doubt correct IN THE INSTANCES YOU DESCRIBED.
ORIGINAL: bigcountry
You ought to do what I did. I went on a quest when starting reloading to see what the indicators look like. so I loaded up some shells past max in .2gr increments. What I found, is flat primers are a great indicator. Cause if your not sure your overpressure over flattened primers, you probably are not over pressure yet. I saw withing 1.5gr over max primers that looked like it was part of the brass head it was so flat, and bolt lift started to get tough.Now thats a flattened primer. I found on one case not only flat, but pierced primer. I decided not to go further and find out how much it takes to lock the brass up in the gun.
I would find out about that 2 or so years later when taking a partition load, and trying to put it to a trophy bonded bullet. Not only flat primer, but had to take a cleaning rod and knock out the brass gently.
Federal is always going to look flat, and winchester and CCI will give you good indicators. But when your well over max, you won't have to scratch your head, you will know a definate yes.
You ought to do what I did. I went on a quest when starting reloading to see what the indicators look like. so I loaded up some shells past max in .2gr increments. What I found, is flat primers are a great indicator. Cause if your not sure your overpressure over flattened primers, you probably are not over pressure yet. I saw withing 1.5gr over max primers that looked like it was part of the brass head it was so flat, and bolt lift started to get tough.Now thats a flattened primer. I found on one case not only flat, but pierced primer. I decided not to go further and find out how much it takes to lock the brass up in the gun.
I would find out about that 2 or so years later when taking a partition load, and trying to put it to a trophy bonded bullet. Not only flat primer, but had to take a cleaning rod and knock out the brass gently.
Federal is always going to look flat, and winchester and CCI will give you good indicators. But when your well over max, you won't have to scratch your head, you will know a definate yes.
I have wanted to learn to use case head expansion for years, but just doesn't work for me. I have some nice starrett mics And you have to know the diameter before and after. Its alot of work and can be tedious. And some loads I learn I am over by time. Especially with federal brass, after 3 fires out of my STW, with a hot load, and now my primers won't seat good. I figure I am getting up there in pressure, even thoughmy primers are federal so I have discounted that as an indicator, and are flat, but bolt lift is normal.
So I am in agreement with you, a reloader has to learn to look at the big picture. Pay attention to detail, extraction marks, bolt lift, primer flatness, brass/primer pocket life, velocity, and even sound of the shot.
So after all these years reloading, there is one definate indicator that you are over pressue. If you can't get your bolt open, you are over pressure.
. Actually two indicators, if your laying on the ground after a shot, and your gun is in pieces, your over pressure. The rest of it is careful observation and educated guess's.
06-20-2007, 05:46 AM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
RE: flattened primers
"But another thing that can cause that is a firing pin hole in the bolt that is significantly larger than the pin itself."
Exactly. Never sawa flattened primer that was also cratered.
Exactly. Never sawa flattened primer that was also cratered.
06-20-2007, 10:02 AM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location:
Posts: 215
RE: flattened primers
It's usually the first sign that it's getting there...when the bolt handle getsa little sticky or hard to lift it's time to stop !! After all what are you really gaining...I wonder how much different a deer heart or lungs feel at 3000 or 3050 fps, none..it's not worth it...
06-23-2007, 03:49 PM
#18
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: flattened primers
I just finished reading an article by a well-knownchronograph maker. This man is an expert, and I really read and value anything he is willing to share with us!
In this articlehe states that in the last couple of decades, many publishers of reloading data, and other reloaders too, have begun to learn that a lot of loading data that people had been using with no apparent problems was actually quite a bit "over the limit". So those powder charges have been reduced in many instances.
According to this article, neither case head expansion, "pressure ring" expansion, primer pocket expansion, etc. etc., can be counted upon for decision making regarding our data. Iassume thesedevelopments account for at least some of the quite noticeable reductions in maximum load data we have observed in the more recent manuals.
Actually, there is really no doubt about it. None of the "classic pressure signs" we have been watching for years really tells us what the pressure actually is. So from this point of view, I will agree that without some reliable means of actually measuring the pressures developed by our loads IN THE RIFLE WE DEVELOPED THE LOAD IN, (this factor is very significant, as all rifles are individuals!!) we are just guessing! And, even if a particularload of ours has "given no signs of excessive pressures" over the years,it is conceivable that that load is so close to being excessive that a particular round might very well "jump" beyond that level, since each round is going to produce a somewhat different peak pressure level.
However, what concerns me is HOW the industry decides what an "overmaximum" load actually is. By this I mean, HOW did the authorities decide where to set the upper limit for a given cartridge! The problem most of us face is a lack of an accurate, consistent pressure measuringmethodology that can be used with each of our individual guns. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that even the industry is not convinced that their systems arefoolproof either. For example, some are still arguing over CUP vs PSI! (BTW, there is NO RELIABLE means for converting one measurement to the other!)
Therefore, since I lack the needed equipment, not to mention the expertise to use it, I fully intend to continue loading ammunition based on the premise that thebrass cartridge case is the weakest link in any firearm/cartridge system I presently load for, and to continue using "number of reloadings per lot of cases" to judge whether my loads are acceptable. Additionally, when developing loads for specific weapons, I will still use the "tealeaf" methods to decide when I need to cut a maximum load back five or ten percent! What is the alternative, after all?
In this articlehe states that in the last couple of decades, many publishers of reloading data, and other reloaders too, have begun to learn that a lot of loading data that people had been using with no apparent problems was actually quite a bit "over the limit". So those powder charges have been reduced in many instances.
According to this article, neither case head expansion, "pressure ring" expansion, primer pocket expansion, etc. etc., can be counted upon for decision making regarding our data. Iassume thesedevelopments account for at least some of the quite noticeable reductions in maximum load data we have observed in the more recent manuals.
Actually, there is really no doubt about it. None of the "classic pressure signs" we have been watching for years really tells us what the pressure actually is. So from this point of view, I will agree that without some reliable means of actually measuring the pressures developed by our loads IN THE RIFLE WE DEVELOPED THE LOAD IN, (this factor is very significant, as all rifles are individuals!!) we are just guessing! And, even if a particularload of ours has "given no signs of excessive pressures" over the years,it is conceivable that that load is so close to being excessive that a particular round might very well "jump" beyond that level, since each round is going to produce a somewhat different peak pressure level.
However, what concerns me is HOW the industry decides what an "overmaximum" load actually is. By this I mean, HOW did the authorities decide where to set the upper limit for a given cartridge! The problem most of us face is a lack of an accurate, consistent pressure measuringmethodology that can be used with each of our individual guns. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that even the industry is not convinced that their systems arefoolproof either. For example, some are still arguing over CUP vs PSI! (BTW, there is NO RELIABLE means for converting one measurement to the other!)
Therefore, since I lack the needed equipment, not to mention the expertise to use it, I fully intend to continue loading ammunition based on the premise that thebrass cartridge case is the weakest link in any firearm/cartridge system I presently load for, and to continue using "number of reloadings per lot of cases" to judge whether my loads are acceptable. Additionally, when developing loads for specific weapons, I will still use the "tealeaf" methods to decide when I need to cut a maximum load back five or ten percent! What is the alternative, after all?
06-25-2007, 05:54 AM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
RE: flattened primers
"However, what concerns me is HOW the industry decides what an "overmaximum" load actually is. By this I mean, HOW did the authorities decide where to set the upper limit for a given cartridge! The problem most of us face is a lack of an accurate, consistent pressure measuringmethodology that can be used with each of our individual guns. As a matter of fact, it seems to me that even the industry is not convinced that their systems arefoolproof either. For example, some are still arguing over CUP vs PSI! (BTW, there is NO RELIABLE means for converting one measurement to the other!)"
Ken Oehler wrote that article in "Shooting Times" magazine. He actually spent aweek at thethe Belgian proof house in Liege trying to find a directconversion between psi and cup.He could find none.
"Therefore, since I lack the needed equipment, not to mention the expertise to use it, I fully intend to continue loading ammunition based on the premise that thebrass cartridge case is the weakest link in any firearm/cartridge system I presently load for, and to continue using "number of reloadings per lot of cases" to judge whether my loads are acceptable."
My exact thoughts. My.30 caliber cases are canned afterfive or six re-loads except for the cases used in my hotter loads which are canned aftertwo reloads.
Ken Oehler wrote that article in "Shooting Times" magazine. He actually spent aweek at thethe Belgian proof house in Liege trying to find a directconversion between psi and cup.He could find none.
"Therefore, since I lack the needed equipment, not to mention the expertise to use it, I fully intend to continue loading ammunition based on the premise that thebrass cartridge case is the weakest link in any firearm/cartridge system I presently load for, and to continue using "number of reloadings per lot of cases" to judge whether my loads are acceptable."
My exact thoughts. My.30 caliber cases are canned afterfive or six re-loads except for the cases used in my hotter loads which are canned aftertwo reloads.
