What do you think??
 

I think I had posted before about the same thing but don't think I ever got any thoughts.
Would like to hear what others think is happening,I sure am stumped.
First off I have 2 rifles,both 22/250,a savage with 26 in barrel and a remington with 24 in barrel.
OK loaded up some 40 grain v-max and 40 gr BT useing 10 X powder (34.5 grs.)and wrl primers.
Shot both today and in the savage I got small groups and a speed of 4200 fps with the BT and 4146 with the v-max.
Next shot the remington with same bullets and load I got good group and fps was 4009 with the BT.
Next shot the v-max ( fps varried from 3200 to 3600 fps)couldn't hardly find where they hit on the target board but the ones I found were key holed,tried shooting them at 25 yards and they sprayed all over the target and was key holed.
Thought maybe one was bigger in dia than the other but measure the same 224" thought maybe the reason was because one was shorter than the other (.683-v-max vs .687 -BT).
I can shoot the BT when I want to shoot a 40 gr bullet in the remington but would like to know the reason why the v-max won't shoot.Does anyone know or anyone want to take a good guess???I just cannot understand the speed drop from one bullet to the other.

RE: What do you think??
 

Just looked at my twist rate table. The .22/250 Savage rifle has a twist rate of one turn in 12 inches. The 700 Remington in .22/250 has a twist rate of 1 turn in 14 inches. That's all i know.

RE: What do you think??
 

Hmmm. Here's a possiblility.

Both of those bullets are certainly short enough to shoot in a 1/14" twist, so that is not the problem. However, it may be that the V-Max bullets are moving so fast in that Remington that the bullet cores are melting and some of the bullets may be disintegrating as a result. This could be confusing to yourchronograph, which would explain the wild velocity variations and the bad grouping of the V-Max bullets. Under such circumstances, many bullets might not be arriving at the target.

This happened a lot in the early days of the 220 Swift, among others, until insulating material was placed between the jacket walls and the cores. From the MV readings you are getting from your Savage, I would say such a thing is quite possible with that ammo.

Of course, it may be something entirely different, too. This is just a possibility. However, if you see any spirals of sprayed lead around the bullet holes on the targets when shooting the V-Max's, that would support this theory.

RE: What do you think??
 

Eldeguello,I think maybe you have something there.And I didn't think much of it at the time,the holes at the 25 yd target were gray colored around the bullet hole some as much as an inch in dia.and all were keyholed.The ones at 100 had no gray color around them just keyholed.
If I wasn't so old and hardheaded I would just chalk it up and forget it but it has just got my curiousity up.And has been bugging me since I left the range.
Last night I came up with the idea to try the same thing with a different powder useing a charge that gave me a max speed and the lowest book speed.And see what happens with the 2 different bullets.
Thanks for the reply.

RE: What do you think??
 

Ok, I got my guess...
How much has the remington been shot? Many times eroded barrels will nick/tear thin jacketed bullets enough to cause detonation with the centripetal force of the bullet rotation. The v-maxes are are right much thinner than the nosler version and I bet that is making the difference. (-other signs-the noslers are slower (chrono'd)in Rem than savage b/c of friction/erosion (2" barrel shouldn't make 200fps)). Sounds like your throat is toast. You can probably set it back; but if you take it off; I'd call Krieger or Lilja and make an order first...
As far as the chrono... The bullets are separating & it is (more than likely) picking up fragments and shrapnel that is slowed to wind friction.

RE: What do you think??
 

No its not shot out it is new (probably less than 300 shots) through it.The savage is new too,Bought both end of last year.Will be back at the range tuesday and going to try a different powder with min.and max load.Would have just tried a min. load with the 10x but alliant only shows the one load with the 10x and I didn't want to do a lot of guessing.
Below is how the rem (sps) shoots the BT 40 gr with the 10x load.
Thanks for the reply,I will post after tuesday of the results.

RE: What do you think??
 

Hmmm...
I thought I had it figured out .... Guess that was my first problem. Let us know what happens with the new powder but I can't imagine the same thing happening at near velocities.

If it were me; either way I'd clean the barrel very well (Sweet's 7.62 is one of the best copper removers). Then if you have access to a bore scope, take a look. I have seen more than one Rem with a burr or bad place in the barrel (mass production mishap). A couple even still shot well. But with 300 shot down the tube a simple burr should already be smoothed out ??? I've also seen SOME wore out barrels shoot lights out (only problem is some bullets don't make the target) but again, 300 shots is not the end to a 250.

With your description of the 25yrd target, I am pretty sure the bullet is coming apart (chrony speculates to that also), we just need to figure out why. Keep us posted.

By the way, that's a pretty good group with the SPS. A buddy also has one in 22/250 that has been transferred into a classic stock and "accurized" that can't hold a candle to that. Maybe we should try some 40's in it...

RE: What do you think??
 

If your buddie has some of the 10x and the 40 Bt he should try that load in his,it shoots very good in the savage also with the 26 in barrel.Did he get the one (sps)with the bull barrel or reg barrel? I order a bell and carlson with the full bedding block to go on the 22/250 but ended up with it on a classic 708 ,looks very good,it is tan with black specks.
I put the same medalist stock on a ss rem sps in 270 also and it looks sharp too.
The 10x shot pretty good in the savage muzzleloader too but the charge I had to use was really ruff on the shoulder.It also shot good in a 223 cal.

,

RE: What do you think??
 

Herman,
If you've already gotten good groups out of that Remington, then you don't have a bad barrel or a burr on the crown. If that were the case,that Remington would've shot terrible from the get-go.

I think Eldeguello hit the nial on the head. You very well may be pushing those 40gr V-Max too fast. Have you had someone watching while you've been shooting to see if there is a little poof about1/4-1/2 ofway to the target?

RE: What do you think??
 

Hey 1-shot haven't seen you post in awhile.Still have my savage ML11 smokeing too.Took one at 230,200 and 170 yds this past year.
I think Eldeguello had it right also but something keeps bugging me,anyhow I have some loaded up to try next week.
Anyhow with the savage with the 1;12 twist the v-max shoots fine at around 4100fps.but then with the remington is where they are coming apart and looseing the fps with a 1;14 twist,Doesn't the rem have a slower rpm than the savage with the 1;12.this is where I am hung up at.
I had heard you were over in Iraq,a personal thanks for serveing our country.
Did you get to hunt any ths past year?

RE: What do you think??
 

Congrats. Sounds like you had another great muzzleloading season with the Savage.I got back from Iraq in ealry September, spent a week or so with the family, then packed them up and went the outerbanks (ahh, real sand) for a week of surf fishing, R&R,and a few adult beverages. Then got back from that just in time to sighta couple fo theSavages in and head back east for the eastern muzzleloading season. I got three at 50, 60, and 140.

Yep the savage has a faster twist for sure. Have you taken a good close look at the rifling of the Remington. Is it real sharp and/or rough? I think the Remington barrels are hammer forged, were as the Savage are button cut. So theoretically the Savage barrel shoudl be a tad shraper and rougher than the Remington. If the barrels are stainless, you could have fine razor edges on the rifling, thta could be shredding the jackets a tad too much.

I would also mic the bore to see if the lands and grooves are what they are supposed to be. I would also take a real linty loose fitting patch and run down the bore to see if any of the lint will hang up on any burr. Then I would run a tight patch down the bore feeling for nay loose spot.

RE: What do you think??
 

The rem is a blue barrel,I took and cleaned it very good with 50BMG,and surprized there was very faint copper signs because I had shot several rounds through it.Then ran some plain cotten through it and with a bore light I couldn't see any sign of cotten left in the barrel,then ran a toght patch but couldn't feel anything.Don't have a bore scope but with my necked eye the barrel looked really smooth.
The first thing I do with any new rifle is to clean it good with 200 strokes of JB's cleaner.Have done this for several years now and not worried about breaking in a barrel.
My buddie was watching me shoot at 25 yds and he said he didn't see anything,but will get him to pay special attention when I try it again next week.I think it is going to be exciting to see how the v-max reacts to slowing it down to the mim. fps.If that don't satisfy my cursioty I will probaby chalk it up to I don't know and move on.

RE: What do you think??
 

To make both guns shoot better with very little vel. loose go to 52 or 53 gr. bullets either hornady or sierra and will almost Garnette accuracy improvement in both rifles need a little longer bullet to stabilize

RE: What do you think??
 

Thanks but I have several bullets and loads that shoot great in both rifles including the 52 and 53 gr.Just trying to figure out what is happening in the rem with the 40 gr v-max.

RE: What do you think??
 

Well, like I said, vaporizing bullets were quite common back in the 1930's when guys like Harvey Donaldson and Townsend Whelen were designing new .22-caliber varmint cartridges. A dead giveaway is molten lead sprayed on the target paper from melted bullet cores.I've had this happen to me with a Hornady 87-grain at 3750 from a 6mm/.284. Changed to an 85-gr. Sierra HPBTand it stopped.I would think that bullets made today would be designed to prevent this, but maybe not! I know SOME of the lighter bullets are intended for lower velocity cartridges like the .218 Bee & the Hornet. What is the max velocity that those bullets are rated for by the manufacurer??

RE: What do you think??
 

Well got to the range this morning and after getting set up I realized that I had forgotten the rem 22/250,was really disappointed but the range is 25 miles from my house so I didn't want to go back and get it will have to wait untill next week before I can try the low veliocity loads.
Had a good morning at the range anyway though,someone had let some of the see-um targets so I shot some of those.Got a pic below of some of the groups I got this morning.The bottom right is the 40 gr v-max out of the savage with the 1;12 twist and I got avg of 3 shots at 4196fps
Shot some good tght groups with the 223 savage and the sierra 69 gr match bullet and different powders.The smallest was .244 and the largest was.494
My buddie shot the groups with the 223 one group he shot with his rifle and the other with mine.
The 10 shot group was the one I liked think its pretty good for an old man,just had to pull one to the left for some reason.If I measure from the longest point I get 1.267-.308=.959,think that should be a good deer load.Will try to remember the remington next week.

RE: What do you think??
 

Didn't forget the rem this morning.Have come to the conclusion that this rifle just hates the hornady a-max and v-max.
I shot three of the down loader 40 gr v-max at 25 yds avg fps was 3332.(31.8gr of 2460)they didn't keyhole or leave lead marks but the holes looked like I had shot them with a 308 bullet.Wasn't enough pressure because the cases were sooty all over.
Next shot 2 of the higher load(36grs of 2460)only shot 2 because both of them keyholed.3837fps.
Next shot the 40 gr v-max 3-shots theywere all over the paper (this is at 25 yds)one was even in the next target over to the left about 2 ft.they weren't all the way keyholed but the holes were very large in size.
Next tried 2 with H380 and 52 gr a-maxes,both were keyholed about 7 inches apart.
Decided to shoot a 3 shot group with the 40 gr BT and 34.5 grs of 10x it shot a .351 in group at 100 yds.
Let my buddie shoot it and he shot a 4 shot group with his load with the sierra 53 gr match that went less than an inch.at 100 yds.
What we think is happening is that there is a sharp edge on one of the rifling or a burr that we cannot see with the naked eye that is cutting the jacket on the hornady starting it to come apart down the barrel????
Going to lapp the barrel with some jb again and see if that helps.
Have ruled out speed with this bullet because have shot it in my savage at 4200 + with no problem,Rpm's the rem is 1;14 the savage is 1;12 so the rem should be turning the bullet slower that the savage.